On The Fence [long, sorry]

[Mama Rana]

Hi. I'm new to this forum, but not MDC. I have a 6 yo [entering 1st] and a 14.5mo.

My 6yo went to public kindy last year. I was extremely nervous about this because he has always loved learning and had an insatiable curiosity, and I was afraid that all-day public school could devastate that. He did ok in school though. His teacher loved him and said he seemed engaged and interested. The first few weeks HE kept telling me how much he hated school. He eventually mellowed out about it, but rarely admitted to liking it.

I had thought about hs-ing him, but with a newborn last year.... He knew that, and I wouldn't be surprised if some if his "dislike" of school had to do with a desire to be hs-ed. I've tried to tell him that being hs-ed doesn't mean he gets to play all day, he'd still have to sit down with me and do some learning activities, but I'm not sure he gets it.
It came up again this summer [his cousins are being pulled out this year to be hs-ed], and he again expressed interest in being hs-ed. I've been doing a lot of reading, brainstorming, preliminary/sample planning, etc. and am mostly excited at the prospect...... BUT

[you knew that was coming, right?]

I have a couple concerns, and so does my DH.

1) the toddler is into EVERYTHING. And does not like to be gated off, so even in the same room but in a gated off area or in a play-yard type thing, wouldn't work. I worry about trying to balance both their needs.

2) DH is worried [and so am I in a smaller way] about me being to keep up with the rest of the household [laundry, dishes, shopping, cleaning, etc]. I already SUCK at the cleaning part, but he's afraid the rest of it will fall apart as well.

3) I'm afraid that once the 6yo sees what HS is really like he'll be disappointed. We could always put him in school then, or make changes in how we do it, or whatever, but .... I dunno. I wanted to do a preliminary week [basically DO the first week of school that I have sorta mapped out, but do it before PS starts], but I've seen posts around that other people think this is a BAD idea. But I thought it might be good for him to get a better idea what I mean by "sit down with me and do some "work"" and for me to get a better idea how the toddler will react.

4) Lastly, I SUCK at arranging playdates and attending social things. He needs that. Even when he was in school, he craved time to play with friends in unstructured ways. This is further proof to me that school does NOT fulfill their social needs, BUT it did provide a source of friends that would invite him to birthday parties or who we could arrange playdates with from time to time.


I don't know if I really have a strong good reason to HS. Mostly it just appeals to me because of all the cool things there are out there to do with them [SOTW, Story of Fred, field trips]. The schools around here are as good as public schools get [I used to teach in them so I'm familiar with their inner workings], but they're SCHOOLS. Lots of sitting, waiting, and teaching to tests. But he did well, and if you nailed him down on it, he seemed to enjoy it. His teacher was GREAT, very engaging and LOVED him and the kids in general, but who knows who he'd get for first grade.


Ok, sorry for babbling. Tell me to get over myself and do it, or that I'm right, I should just send him to school. Or whatever comes to mind when you read my ramblings. Talk me through it, if you will.

Thanks!

[SundayCrepes]

Ummm...yeah, get over yourself. You sound really anxious about this when it should be simple (once your baby is older.) Maybe because we unschool and use sonlight books to make sure we cover socially desirable subjects, but homeschooling should be fun.

Regarding the housework...which is more important: the dust on your piano or your son's education/self-concept? (Loaded question, I know, but hopefully it will help you put it in perspective.) I have a 4.5 year old. My daughter will be 2 a week from today. My house didn't start to get even a little bit clean until a couple months ago (and let's not even talk about the current state of my laundry piles. I got an organizer for the dirty laundry, it's the clean laundry that's the problem.) I just accepted the state of my house and tried to not be too embarrassed when we had company. I finally found a routine. After dinner I roomba our floors. This means I have to pick up all the toys and stuff that's accumulated on the floor during the course of the day (I don't clean much throughout the day, what an endless battle that would be.) The horizontal waiste-high surfaces don't get quite the attention they need, but they're alright. I really believe our roomba saved my sanity after both my kids were born (though I was able to use it when he was 14 months. After my daughter was born roomba sat in a corner until she was about 22 months.)

As far as the social aspect--I am such a hermit and have a hard time making friends. However, I've also gotten over that for the sake of my kids. It's not easy, and it's really frustrating when the unschooled, no weapon male friends he made all moved away (and the schooled ones went to school.) But I kept at it and he's now got some great female friends that he plays with so well and we're working on a new relationship with an unschooled boy.

Join a homeschooling group. Offer to babysit (for free) homeschooled kids with working parents, start some sort of group activity you host (hard with a little one, but something to think about in the future.)

Your baby will be much easier to work around in a year. In 2 years life will be so easy. Just hold tight, don't worry about little things--like housework and being strict about a school at home schedule--and it will get better.

[Mama Rana]

Thanks for the kick in the ar*e, SC. I'll take one quick second for to get any defensiveness out of my system to say that it's not the dust I'm worried about, it's the toilets and kitchen floor, the truly DIRTY areas, yk?


Anyway.

DH and I talked after I posted, and agreed to sit down and hash out the details of what he's worried about to see if we can come up with some workable solutions.

So now my biggest worry is the toddler. In the long run it would be great to start now while he's young, and then he'd just grow up seeing it being done and it would become his "normal", yk? I just need to figure out how to keep him from fussing through all our lessons. I know tons of you all do this, so it's just a matter of me seeing out of the box I'm in!

[SundayCrepes]

Please don't be defensive over my dust comment. I was trying to make a point only. But even the toilet and floor...Lower your standards for now. Too soon your little ones won't be little. Too much attention to filth and their babyhood is gone. My favorite poem:

Cleaning and scrubbing can wait 'til tomorrow
For babies grow up I have learned to my sorrow
So quiet down cobwebs and dust go to sleep
I'm rockin' my baby 'cause babies don't keep.

When my baby was really a baby, our son got really aggressive. It was a horrible year. I look back and can barely remember her as a baby or him as a 3 year old. It's like that time was stolen from me. In my case it was because of some serious behavioral issues. I grieve the time and memories. I'd feel horrible if I missed that time over my house (and let me tell you, my house was horrid during that time.)

[phathui5]

I think that you can definitely homeshool with a toddler underfoot. I have four children (9, 6, 4, and 3) and I work part-time and I somehow manage to educate all of them.

And honestly, for the parts of the house that really bother me, I end up cleaning it after the kids go to bed. The older kids are helpful when it comes to picking things up, but I'm the one who scrubs the bathroom. I also pay someone to clean once or twice a month.

[elus0814]

I homeschool a preschooler and first grader with a sixteen month old at home and will have a new baby in the house in another month or two.

Yes, your house will be messy unless you stay up late to clean or have money to pay someone to do it for you. I've never had someone come in to clean and our house is very tidy but DH and I both like it to be neat and clean so we make it a point to spend time in the evening and on weekends to keep it that way. In the long run, having a happy and educated child is much more important than having all the laundry done.

Yes, it is difficult to have school time with a toddler underfoot. If the toddler still takes a nap that is a good time to get school time accomplished but if not it will be an effort to get through it while trying to entertain the younger one at the same time. If your school age child is not able to get anything done without total quiet it may be nearly impossible to do school without someone to help watch the toddler.

Yes, it can be very tough to force yourself to be more social but it's something that can be worked on. Planned social activities like scouts have helped us a lot.

We used last summer as a trial run of homeschooling. This really eased my anxiety over not being able to do it and having missed the start of the school year. If you want to and think it would help you then that's what you should do. Just plan out a reasonable week (not too much) that doesn't involve purchasing anything expensive and see how it goes. If it feels really impossible then at least you'll know but you should expect it to be an adjustment and not be easy, at least not at first.

[cmoma]

Mama rana, I could have written your post. I have an almost 7 yr old who finished up Kindy in the spring, is was not a good year...So we opted to hs this year. I also have 4 yr old and a may09 babe too.

I am anxious but sooo excited about it in the same breath. I am joining groups online and finding classes to send him too, Our house is a mess...always~ I am poorly organized and I suck at making friends So yeah this is going to be interesting to say the least

BUT...I am seeing it as a way to change all that. To be more organized, to make friends that are doing similar things, to watch my children grow up in front of me and with me, and not have them be gone all day at school...

As far as the littlest goes...mine is easy going and seems to just go with the flow which as the third is very much appreciated!. Could you schedule work times around naptime(s)? Or set him up with his work and then play with the little one? Or put her in her highchair to play/eat while you work with the oldest? Just some thoughts..

you definitely need to step outside the box with some things and just jump in and see what happens. Your littlest will grow up a lot this year and will probably be joing you at the table for worktime with her own "work" if you hs!

Hope I didn't ramble too much Good luck Mama!

[pampered_mom]

Originally Posted by Mama Rana

2) DH is worried [and so am I in a smaller way] about me being to keep up with the rest of the household [laundry, dishes, shopping, cleaning, etc]. I already SUCK at the cleaning part, but he's afraid the rest of it will fall apart as well.

...and he's broken? I mean this in the nicest of ways and slightly tongue-in-cheek...but he lives there, too, right? So he owns his fair share of the mess that comes with living (food prep, laundry, etc). There's no reason why this should fall squarely on your shoulders.

Think of it this way...if you were to place your children in school or day care you'd expect that the person you hired to do it would take care of your children. You'd expect that they'd interact with them, play with them, take notice of them, spend time with them. You wouldn't expect them to clean the rest of the school or day care center while doing it, right? I fully maintain that the same applies at home as well.

My husband works more hours in a week that I can remember sometimes. At worst it's 60 hours a week and I'm usually home alone with the kids. That hasn't stopped him from helping out around the house. He does laundry, cleans the bathroom, makes meals, mows the lawn, changes the oil in the cars, etc, etc. We all share the responsibility for our house because we all benefit from what goes on there. Are there times that it falls mostly to me? Sure. Do we stress about it? Sometimes - mostly me than him. We've lowered our standards (because kids are messy) and done the best we could. We always figured the mess would still be there.

Also, don't discount your 6yo. There's no reason why small children can't help out with things around the house. Involve them in what you're doing. The very best things I ever gave my children were a small child sized carpet sweeper (from Montessori Services), a small broom and dust pan (from Target surprisingly), and a few cleaning cloths. That carpet sweeper has see more play than any of our other toys. I'm amazed at how much the kids have picked up (both the 5yo and the 2yo) just playing with it. Also, if they spill something (food, water, etc) they know where the rags are and they clean it up. It's fun and they feel useful. Cleaning *will* take longer this way, but again they like to feel useful. They like to feel like they've helped. Make it part of your curriculum - just call it "Home Ec".

As far as errands and shopping? Throw this one under the "Home Ec" header as well. Find some particular task that your 6yo could be responsible for when you go out (hold onto the list, keep track of the coupons, etc, etc) which will help give them a sense of importance and responsibility. The other option is saving up your errands/shopping for one day. Leave the kids home with your husband and head out of the house to get your errands done. You'll marvel in the relative quiet and ease of getting around and your dh will be reminded just how difficult it can be for you. You'll both appreciate each other more for it.

[Mama Rana]

Originally Posted by SundayCrepes

Please don't be defensive over my dust comment. I was trying to make a point only. But even the toilet and floor...Lower your standards for now. Too soon your little ones won't be little. Too much attention to filth and their babyhood is gone. My favorite poem:

Cleaning and scrubbing can wait 'til tomorrow
For babies grow up I have learned to my sorrow
So quiet down cobwebs and dust go to sleep
I'm rockin' my baby 'cause babies don't keep.

When my baby was really a baby, our son got really aggressive. It was a horrible year. I look back and can barely remember her as a baby or him as a 3 year old. It's like that time was stolen from me. In my case it was because of some serious behavioral issues. I grieve the time and memories. I'd feel horrible if I missed that time over my house (and let me tell you, my house was horrid during that time.)

I'm sorry, I was attempting to be light-hearted but forgot I was on the internet I swear my standards are already really low. I just need to avoid "someone's going to call CPS on me" level of dirtiness.

Originally Posted by pampered_mom

...and he's broken? I mean this in the nicest of ways and slightly tongue-in-cheek...but he lives there, too, right? So he owns his fair share of the mess that comes with living (food prep, laundry, etc). There's no reason why this should fall squarely on your shoulders.

He does quite a bit, actually; helps with dishes, washes towels & sheets, vacuums, does the trash and recycling, bathes the boys...]. But when I gave up working to be home all day, I feel like I made the commitment to be not only "daycare provider" but home manager. There is a certain level I feel like I should be able to handle--a minimum even. Hard to explain, I guess. I'm a FlyBaby at the most infantile level

Originally Posted by pampered_mom

Also, don't discount your 6yo. There's no reason why small children can't help out with things around the house. Involve them in what you're doing. The very best things I ever gave my children were a small child sized carpet sweeper (from Montessori Services), a small broom and dust pan (from Target surprisingly), and a few cleaning cloths. That carpet sweeper has see more play than any of our other toys. I'm amazed at how much the kids have picked up (both the 5yo and the 2yo) just playing with it. Also, if they spill something (food, water, etc) they know where the rags are and they clean it up. It's fun and they feel useful. Cleaning *will* take longer this way, but again they like to feel useful. They like to feel like they've helped. Make it part of your curriculum - just call it "Home Ec".

As far as errands and shopping? Throw this one under the "Home Ec" header as well. Find some particular task that your 6yo could be responsible for when you go out (hold onto the list, keep track of the coupons, etc, etc) which will help give them a sense of importance and responsibility. The other option is saving up your errands/shopping for one day. Leave the kids home with your husband and head out of the house to get your errands done. You'll marvel in the relative quiet and ease of getting around and your dh will be reminded just how difficult it can be for you. You'll both appreciate each other more for it.

I really like the idea of "home ec". I didn't learn as much about home management as I wish I had when I was growing up. I hope to remedy that in my own children. Somehow.

I also like hte idea of doing errands solo. Today I took both to the grocery store. 6yo chatters almost non-stop!

Anyway, thanks everyone. I'd appreciate any concrete suggestions for activities my 15 mo toddler might do while we work. He's pretty much down to one nap, and I hope to use that for activities that can't be done with the little one [archaeology dig, eg]. We've decided to do instruction on the main floor rather than the basement since that would require so much work to make it usable. Maybe eventually we'll go that way, but..... So that means he'll have his regular living room/kitchen to play in; that might help.

[Millie Ivy]

I would really recommend reading The Unschoolers Handbook, even if you know for a fact you don't want to "unschool" there is a load of learning that happens in everyday life, and the beauty of homeschooling is that you have the freedom to get away from being chained to a table or desk or "learning room". We have a "learning WORLD"!!!

This is even more applicable at the ages your kiddos are at. At 6, with a little sib, "school" can be walks in the woods, exploring the neighborhood, learning the ins and outs of your library, playing with friends, going to museums, going to matinees of movies, grocery shopping, cooking with mom, learning empathy by sharing time with the younger one, counting the birds outside, enjoying holidays, learning the calendar by experiencing the year, crafts, making volcanos out of the toilet water..... :-)

Not that you CAN'T use schoolbooks, I understand not everyone wants to go the more unschooling route, we didn't fully really. But at the end of the day, they learned SO much more (especially at that age) just by living. We would go days and realize we didn't have time to sit and fill out worksheets, but we damn sure learned a lot.

(my older two are going into PS this year at their own choosing, just to "try it out, because I can, like, always homeschool again, mom..." However, at K and 2nd grade level after zero "school at home" they were testing at or above grade level. :-) )

I ramble. I seriously can recommend just jumping in and enjoying time with your son. I wouldn't even DO "school" work for a couple weeks at least. Just get in a rhythm with each other. Read a lot, play a lot. Done.

[Mama Rana]

Originally Posted by Millie Ivy

I would really recommend reading The Unschoolers Handbook, even if you know for a fact you don't want to "unschool" there is a load of learning that happens in everyday life, and the beauty of homeschooling is that you have the freedom to get away from being chained to a table or desk or "learning room". We have a "learning WORLD"!!!

This is even more applicable at the ages your kiddos are at. At 6, with a little sib, "school" can be walks in the woods, exploring the neighborhood, learning the ins and outs of your library, playing with friends, going to museums, going to matinees of movies, grocery shopping, cooking with mom, learning empathy by sharing time with the younger one, counting the birds outside, enjoying holidays, learning the calendar by experiencing the year, crafts, making volcanos out of the toilet water..... :-)

Not that you CAN'T use schoolbooks, I understand not everyone wants to go the more unschooling route, we didn't fully really. But at the end of the day, they learned SO much more (especially at that age) just by living. We would go days and realize we didn't have time to sit and fill out worksheets, but we damn sure learned a lot.

(my older two are going into PS this year at their own choosing, just to "try it out, because I can, like, always homeschool again, mom..." However, at K and 2nd grade level after zero "school at home" they were testing at or above grade level. :-) )

I ramble. I seriously can recommend just jumping in and enjoying time with your son. I wouldn't even DO "school" work for a couple weeks at least. Just get in a rhythm with each other. Read a lot, play a lot. Done.

Thanks. <3 I actually HAVE read that book, and liked it a lot. It appealed to one of the main reasons I want to HS in the first place: DS1 is EXTREMELY curious and open to learning IF IT'S HIS IDEA. Not that he's opposed to other types of learning, but he's downright voracious if his interest is piqued.

I don't expect our "school day" to look like a typical school day, but I used to be a kindy teacher so I think it will start more structured and soften with time. OTOH, I'm hoping that a more structured day will help us all to find better daily rhythms than we currently have [hard to explain...].
I DO hope to avoid worksheets and lots of "sit down" work, but I still think the little one might get underfoot if we try to do something above his head.....

I guess I just need to try and see.

[pampered_mom]

Originally Posted by Mama Rana

He does quite a bit, actually; helps with dishes, washes towels & sheets, vacuums, does the trash and recycling, bathes the boys...]. But when I gave up working to be home all day, I feel like I made the commitment to be not only "daycare provider" but home manager. There is a certain level I feel like I should be able to handle--a minimum even. Hard to explain, I guess. I'm a FlyBaby at the most infantile level

I guess the point I was trying to make is that perhaps this might be an unrealistic idea of what it means to be a SAHM. I guess the issue becomes whether you're the housekeeper or your the teacher. I'm not really sure that it's possible to do both.

[Storm Bride]

My house is a disaster, for various reasons, and dh does a lot.

That said, I don't think it's really relevant to the decision. I know that sounds a bit counter-intuitive, but I just don't. I'm homeschooling, because I think it's best for dd1, and possibly even ds2 (don't think he'll suffer for it, in any case). Factoring in the housework just doesn't make sense to me. If you flip that around, it's a bit like your dh is saying (and you're kind of agreeing) that you should send your ds to public school, so that you have time to clean. That comes awfully close to "get him out of your hair", yk?

In any case, homeschooling/homelearning can take many forms. Your ds is a year younger than my dd1, and we're really working more with her on helping clean up. Maybe see if there's something he wants to do to help clean. Hand him a sponge/mop/whatever and see if he's interested in cleaning the kitchen floor. (DD1 loves to do that.) Will it be clean? Probably not. Will it be CPS-worthy? Probably not. Every little bit helps. Plus, your ds will be learning how to look after a home. (I personally think public school has had a detrimental effect on domestic skills, in many, many ways.)

And, you really don't have to sit down and work a whole lot. DD1 is a little behind on reading (largley because we only realized this year that she's not only near-sighted, which we suspected, but has pretty severe astigmatisms in both eyes - didn't get her eyes tested as soon as I should have, obviously). DS2 is ahead. Our reading instruction has mostly just been reading to them, and having lots of easy books available. They're learning to read, but they're not spending anywhere near the time on it that they would in school, yk?

Having a toddler around makes things...interesting, I'll admit. I'm a little nervous about this coming "school year" myself. (DD1 is doing grade two. DS2 is doing kindergarten. DD2 will be 14.5 month at the beginning of the "school" year.) But, life finds its patterns, yk? You really will figure things out.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by pampered_mom

I guess the point I was trying to make is that perhaps this might be an unrealistic idea of what it means to be a SAHM. I guess the issue becomes whether you're the housekeeper or your the teacher. I'm not really sure that it's possible to do both.

Good point. I feel incompetent most of the time. That's probably because I'm part parent, part housekeeper (bad one), part teacher, etc. Throw in a bit of volunteer work online, and being the chauffeur (I'm the only driver in the family) and I'm just being pulled in lots of different directions....

[lmonter]

Originally Posted by SundayCrepes

Regarding the housework...which is more important: the dust on your piano or your son's education/self-concept? (Loaded question, I know, but hopefully it will help you put it in perspective.)

As far as the social aspect--I am such a hermit and have a hard time making friends. However, I've also gotten over that for the sake of my kids..... Join a homeschooling group.

Yeah, take a deep breath.

What I quoted from SC. Yes.
My house, you don't want to know.
I'm an introvert. I really have to make an effort sometimes, and my 6yo's pretty good about reminding me when they want to get out and do something/see someone. Even if it's just to the park to play with other random kids to burn off energy - when mine are the nice ones helping dust off little kids and being good about taking turns it definitely makes me happy.

And, fwiw? I've got a 6yo, 4yo, 2yo and 5.5mo, a hubby who's in town 85% of time (his job is 400 miles away, he rents a room there), a house on the market, and it's almost the brunt of canning season. Things happen slowly 'round these parts, and I have the kids doing stuff right now rather than waiting for the "official" date in Aug/Sept. It's never a bad time to play with a balance scale and pattern blocks or practicing letters/writing/drawing or listening to me read aloud to them all (although it is easier if I have the 2yo doing a semi-quiet activity like coloring or eating or napping or playing with a container of navy beans, etc.).


Worse comes to worse, you hire someone to come scrub the scary toilets and laundry room and vacuum the cobwebs off the ceiling once a month or so. Honestly, I haven't vacuumed the ceilings in the 6.5 years we've been here until we put the house on the market - I had more important things to worry about.

I'm also trying out the workbox system this year, and plan on having boxes for the 4yo and 2yo as well - their own activities to help keep them busy (for at least a little bit). I have high hopes as I need this part of life to be slightly structured for now, so we'll see how it shapes up once I get it all organized and in use. Just another idea.

[kittie313]

You can totally do this. I am gearing up to start in a couple weeks with grades 2 and 1, with a 4yo and almost 3yo underfoot. And the funny thing about it is that its the oldest kids that are most difficult LOL My 2yo is a very demanding toddler, she insists on being right there all the time when I'm doing something (right now she's sitting on my left foot and playing with a firetruck while I'm on my laptop). I found that having a laptop like I do is essential for *our* style of schooling because I can sit on the floor at the coffee table with who I'm teaching, and then dd4 can sit in my lap and climb on me and hang on my back with her arms around my neck and stroke my hair and all that without interrupting lessons time. I also include her and dd3 in lessons as much as I can. If our lesson has a coloring page or a craft activity, I try to make sure that I have copies of the coloring page or enough supplies for the craft so everyone can do it instead of just the schooling kids.

Also, my h helps out and does about 90% of the housework here. But, we have a busy situation here. He works 50-70 hours a week at his job, and I'm in college full time on top of homeschooling. PLUS, I work with the student activities team for our very large homeschool group, right now I'm organizing a science fair and a Christmas program and a preschooler co-op group. His opinion of it is that I work harder at my volunteering, college, and homeschooling than he does at his factory job, so he does *most* of the cleaning and I do the cooking and pitch in with cleaning. Now, this arrangement means that the house doesn't get cleaned up until late at night normally. So this means that while I'm trying to focus on my own homework and study, he's running the sweeper and doing dishes and picking up stuff and all that around me (I like to sit in a certain chair with my laptop to study, the seat is big enough I can curl up in it and the arm is PERFECT for me to balance my books at the right height to reference while I am on my laptop). And in case you are worndering if this arrangement will work with that much going on, my kids are at grade level academically (well they are a grade behind in the phonics program but its advanced, and dd2 is a year ahead in math) and I have a 3.9 GPA in college, plus he gets near perfect reviews at work and has been recognized for the quality he puts out at the factory. Its super busy, but we get everything done and work together when we have to so that we can keep getting everything done.