For teachers--your administration?

[EFmom]

I'm looking for information from employed teachers, or those who have been public school teachers in the past. I'm especially interested in hearing from high school or middle school teachers.

What I'd like to know is something along the following lines...How do you feel about your school administrators? In particular, how do they deal with discipline? Do you have a discipline policy and will they enforce it? Do they back you up or do they undermine you with parents and students?

PLEASE, if you aren't a teacher and want to debate whether schools need discipline, please do not post here. I don't need that stuff right now. Likewise, if you want to contribute how superhuman people can teach thousands of students at a time and never even need to look twice at students, please don't do that here.

Here's the background. DH is a high school science teacher. It is a second career for him, and he has been in his current position for about 7 years. His is a very blue collar district, with few of the parents having much interest in the schools or in their kids going to college. His school has had very frequent changes of administration since he has been there, but the current vice principal, who is supposed to handle the discipline issues, has been there for three years.

She is awful and he is ready to tear his hair out or find another job. This past year, they give two other teachers stipends to help her with discipline as she couldn't handle it herself. She refuses to follow the school's own discipline policy and when dh tries to assign any of the punishments that are spelled out in the policy, like making kids stay for the last period dentention (less than an hour), she will overturn it if a parent or child complains.

He is having a horrible time maintaining any order in the classroom because the kids now realize that there are zero consequences for any misbehavior. Many of the other teachers face the same thing, but this vice principle particularly seems to have it in for the math and science teachers, most of whom (maybe) coincidentally are men. The way his school is set up, the more academically oriented kids are given his subject in the middle school, so most of the kids he has are not high achievers and aren't very motivated, but everyone must pass the state test to graduate.

He is considering looking for another job because of this woman, but I wonder how typical it is for administration to be terrified of discipline? It would be a drag to have to go through the whole tenure thing at a different school, and there are some personal reasons why the current school is nice, mostly related to the hours and size of the district. But it would also be nice to be able to actually teach again, and also to have a few classes with some kids who like science and are a little more motivated.

[Artisan]

This is one of my biggest, most giant pet peeves about public schools. Administrators are terrified to discipline students because they don't want to deal with the parent reaction. So many parents today feel that their child is never at fault, and feel it necessary to blame teachers and administrators for picking on their child, call them racists, etc.

I have worked in five public schools and one private school. (My DH has taken several job promotions that have forced our move to different states, so I'm also familiar with regional differences.)

I worked in one public high school in the CA Bay Area that had several tough Vice Principals. I knew that if I sent a student to them, they would take appropriate action. I actually walked a student down one day and spoke with the VP about the issues. We had a meeting right there and she was 100% willing to back me up. She knew that I had no reason to waste my time coming to her if there really wasn't a problem. I probably had to send four kids to the office all year. The students just knew that the office was not a place they wanted to be. BTW, the same administrative team also had a reputation for being fair. They didn't expel kids for being late to class, but there were clear consequences to people's actions.

When I moved to the East Coast, I was ASTOUNDED at the lack of care my administrative team had for student discipline. On the first day of school, I nicely (with a smile) asked one girl to take her seat, and she replied, "I'll sit down whenever I want, bitch." I was not going to get into a confrontation with her in front of the class, so I sent her to the office with a referral. She came back ten minutes later with a note to me saying, "I'm not sure what you're accustomed to, but here at X school, we do not refer students for this type of thing."

I could give you 25 more examples of the administrators' gross negligence at this school, where I worked for two years. It got to the point where my department worked out its own discipline system because sending them to the office resulted in nothing. Here is the best example. One of my good friends, an English teacher, was engaging the class in discussion. The door to her classroom opened, and in walked "Sue," a student that she didn't teach. Sue had a conflict with "Mary", a girl who WAS in my friend's class. Sue was looking to fight Mary right then and there. My friend walked over to Sue and asked if she could help her. Mary, seeing Sue walk in, came up behind the teacher and pushed the teacher out of the way so she could have better access to Sue. My friend was knocked to the ground and hit her head on a desk and required several stitches. Security was called, and the girls were taken to the office. My friend was taken to the hospital. She was asked by the police if she wanted to press charges. She said no for a variety of reasons, on the condition that Mary would no longer be in her class. The girls were both suspended for five days, and then Mary was returned to her class without notice.

When my friend went to administration to complain about the fact that a student who assaulted her was now back in her class, she was told that her parents did not want her moved, that she also had a conflict with the other teacher who taught the same class during that period, etc. Basically, there was nothing they would do. She appealed it to the school board and they upheld the administrator's decision.

I decided to transfer to another school the following year. This administrative team, while not like the one I experienced in CA, has been SOOO much better, and has really improved my working conditions. I know that if a student were to assault me (heaven forbid) he or she would not be back in my class five days later. I know that if the behavior is serious enough to warrant an office referral, appropriate action will be taken. And the kids know it too. I have had very very few problems this year.

A good administration creates an atmosphere in which both children and teachers can work and learn without disruption. If you have poor administrators, serious disruption occurs.

Sorry for the novel. The moral of the story is that good administrators to exist, and if your DH is unhappy, I think it's worth it to seek out another school. Feel free to PM me if you would like more specifics.

[thoesly]

I'm in Colorado. I taught high school English prior to the birth of my kids. This was the "poor" school in the district. If I'm remembering correctly, 66% of the student population qualified for free or reduced lunches. It was very diverse in terms of ethnicity, so there were more racial conflicts than at other schools in the area. There were many active gang members, and at least a couple of students missed my class because they were in jail.

In terms of discipline and teacher support, the administration was wonderful. They expected us to deal with issues in the classroom as much as possible, but when we found it necessary to send a student to them, they did what was necessary. The only problem I ever had was with a hall monitor. Nearly a year after I had my son, I got a call from my school asking me to come substitute for them. I did, and found that there were a couple of new hall monitors who I didn't know. In the middle of the day, I found it necessary to escort a student to administration (the student had endangered another student, so I wasn't overreacting). The assistant principal wasn't available, and the next class was about to start, so I took the student to one of the hall monitors who I didn't know (my mistake -- I should have hunted down Alice or Jerry. They would have done their job). When I took the completed referral form to the administrator at the end of the day, I learned that the hall monitor hadn't delivered the student. Apparently, he thought I was a hysterical sub, and he let the student off. It was the last day of school for the summer and the students were gone. I was furious, thinking that the student would get away with what he had done. But then the assistant principal smiled at me and told me not to worry, he could hold onto the referral over the summer and catch the kid in the fall. I trust that he did.

I just worked at the one school, but I did student teaching and internships at two other schools. I found those administrations to also be supportive. Listening to other teachers talk about their experiences, I would have to say that most administrators are supportive of teachers here. There are exceptions, of course, but they seem to be just that -- exceptions.

[EFmom]

Thank you both so much for the feedback. It is exactly the kind of information I'm seeking, and I hope I hear from more teachers. It really helps.

Here's a little update. There was an incident with the vp on Monday where she blew up at dh. She did a bunch of stuff with him that was unreal. Because she was mad at him for not rolling over on the discipline issues, she's trying to get him on a bunch of other, ludicrous stuff.

Yesterday, his union reps and a couple of teachers who witnessed some of her actions had a little meeting with her and told her she was out of line. She had given dh a reprimand about something and had ordered him to change a student's grades (which she absolutely cannot do). The union rep, after doing his homework with the union attorney, and the superintendant, told her that the union was prepared to grieve the reprimand and the grade changing order and if they did, she would lose. This union is one of the best things about this district.

She did a lot of backpedaling, and it's good she knows dh won't be bullied. However, time will tell whether she'll continue to go after him.

Dh also talked to some other people in the school, and it appears she has an active substance abuse problem, which could explain a lot. Still, she could stay there forever, so he needs to decide what to do.

[Maggie05]

"On the first day of school, I nicely (with a smile) asked one girl to take her seat, and she replied, "I'll sit down whenever I want, bitch." I was not going to get into a confrontation with her in front of the class, so I sent her to the office with a referral. She came back ten minutes later with a note to me saying, "I'm not sure what you're accustomed to, but here at X school, we do not refer students for this type of thing."

At the school I work at, a student would definately be suspended for this. I feel our school is right on target with discipline. Some examples: Two years ago, a group of boys were caught pouring bleach into the science teacher's fishtank, and killed all the fish. The police were called, and charges were pressed by the administration against these boys. They were removed from the school setting for the rest of the year (about two months) and were provided with home study tutors. This year a girl was caught setting a fire in the girl's bathroom. Same story... charges were pressed, removed from school, on home study. These kinds of things are not tolerated in our school district. Becasue they are dealt with quickly and with great consequences, they rarely happen.

Now, home study costs a LOT of money for the disctrict to provide. I work in a wealthy school district. To be honest, the other parents would not tolerate a student who sets fires to be allowed back into school.

Oh, and I work in the North east.

[Alisa]

Before being a SAHM, I was a middle school science teacher. I was lucky enough to have an administration that was supportive of the teachers. If you do not, the kids know it and they will take full advantage.

I would not stay at a school that did not have a supportive admin. Where is the prinicipal in all of this?

The strength of a school (especially secondary) depends on the administration (IMO).

Alisa

[Artisan]

Originally posted by Alisa


I would not stay at a school that did not have a supportive admin. Where is the prinicipal in all of this?

The strength of a school (especially secondary) depends on the administration (IMO).

Alisa

I agree completely. Teachers can only do so much with a classroom full of students. I'm sorry your DH is dealing with this. BTW, at the school with the terrible admin that I left, I was also informed that I WOULD be changing a student's grade, or it would be changed FOR ME.

I also had an issue with pay at this school. After my son was born, I went down to working part time, four classes instead of five. It's considered a .8 position (because for each class, you are paid .2 of your salary, five classes = 1.0, or full time.). The school put me down on their staffing list as a .5, eliminating 30% of my salary. When I spoke with the administrator, he told me that he was under the impression that I had just volunteered to help out the school by teaching the extra class. : I had to have union involvement as well, and it took them three months to start paying me at the salary I was earning. This was because of the school's administration, not a district screwup.

Sigh. Truly, things are sooooo much better at the new school I'm at.

[EFmom]

I was also informed that I WOULD be changing a student's grade, or it would be changed FOR ME

Yes, the administration can change the grade, and dh accepts that. But, he's not going to do it himself. He's not going to explain the grade change to the whining parents--she can do that herself, too.

he told me that he was under the impression that I had just volunteered to help out the school by teaching the extra class.

:

Yeah, I'll bet THAT happens a lot! Maybe the district could save some serious $$ by considering some of the administrative posts as volunteer work, rather than nickel and diming the teachers to death.

One of the things that might have caused him some trouble is racial stuff. The school is thinking about doing a diversity program, largely because a parent of a minority student is making a stink about the racial climate, which isn't good.

DH brought up the fact that if they are going to do this, it would be an excellent time to get rid of the school's mascot, which is a racist caricature of an American Indian. The school administration does not want to touch this issue with a barge pole, even though the state commissioner of education has asked all the schools in the state to eliminate American Indian logos. They are afraid that the redneck parents will be up in arms. Dh keeps supplying them with evidence of the unsuitablity of the current image.

[Maggie05]

I wanted to add that there seems to be a real shortage of science teachers. At our school we are ALWAYS looking for science teachers, and I work in a very desirable district. He should start sending out his resume now, and see what happens. Maybe there are other places that will be more supportive of teachers and discipline.

[Fleurette]

I work in a middle school in the same school district as Sharonal.

I have to say I really like my administrative team and for the most part are great about disciplining kids. I know that kids don't want to be sent to the office. Many times, they talk to the kids and lay down the law. If it's a serious infraction, they do not hesitate to take action. For example, there was a girl in my class in September who, during an afterschool activity, got into a fight with another student. She grabbed a door stop (you know, those wooded triangle things you slip under the door to keep it open) and made a menacing motion with it, but never hit or assaulted the other student. Administration took this VERY seriously and not only was she suspended, she was transferred to another school.

I am, for the most part, quite happy with our administration.

[sarasprings]

I've worked in 2 middle school as a classroom teacher and both schools were really different. In the first MS, the VP was sort of a wuss, but the principal stood behind us when there was a conflict with parents (of course, when it came to class size, we needed our union reps to sit in). The VP was just sort of lazy and didn't like too much conflict -- he dealt with the really big stuff, but the smaller stuff was sort of ignored.

At the second one, the vp was horrible. He's been with the district for almost his entire career and had been a vp forever (not necessarily a good sign, IMO). But, the whole school district was way off -- stuck in 50s thinking. Kids sat in straight rows, couldn't talk, any project was token, etc. It makes me so sad because those kids had such potential, but had to fit into a system that was easier for the teachers and admin. I ended up quitting because of ethical reasons, so that may not be a good example.

I'm glad the union is in on your husband's issue. It's really a tough situation because it is so difficult working at a school when in conflict with admin.

[donimomof3]

Hi, I'm a fifth grade teacher. My principal expects children to be seen and not heard. She wants all of them in desks working silently at all times. Drives me nuts! I couldn't sit and be quiet all day if my life depended on it, and I don't expect kids to be able to. Problem is, even though she expects this from the kids, she blames the teachers when it doesn't happen. She also has told us that sending children to the office says to her and to the child that we cannot control our classroom. I have sent one child to the office all year (this past Friday for being extremely disrespectful to another teacher on the playground). The principal did NOTHING. She gave him a 10 minute time out - did not even call his mom. After school, she called me into her office and basically let me know that I should have been keeping a closer eye on him on the playground. In other words - it was my fault he was rude and disrespectful.

We get detailed emails addressing how to "manage" our classes, but no support at all when we need it. I am a good teacher and a good classroom manager. My classes are active and we talk a lot (I believe that is one way children learn), but she sees this as disorder. In two years at this school, I have had the need twice to send a child to the office (once last year for a student cussing me out). In both cases, nothing was done. On the other hand, if a parent complains about us, she writes it up in our personnel file. For example I have a kid in my class who is allergic to milk. He gets orange juice instead. But he doesn't like orange juice, so he throws it away every day. I got on to him for throwing it away, explained that was wasteful, and told him to put it in the free drink bucket for some other kid. Mom complained, said she didn't want to pay for "some welfare kid" to get a free drink. Principal said I was out of line, and I was written up.

Answer your question?? Sorry to vent, but this is all very fresh on my mind.

[grisandole]

EFmom, your dh and my dh can compare note; my dh teaches high school, and ususally has this problem. He has taught at four schools, and two were horrible in terms of administrative support (including his current position), one was good, one was okay.

I think it all depends on the principal and vice principal. Currently, he has NO SUPPORT for behavior problems, if he refers them to the office they don't do anything. He had one student that called him (my dh) racist names, and the admin didn't understand why my dh was upset. The same student also told dh that he wanted to build a concentration camp........admin still didn't care. In fact, dh got written up on his evaluation for not being sensitive to the "small town" cultural attitude of the students!!! His principal flat out told him that students here are racist, and it's okay, that's to be expected and it's perfectly fine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

At his last school, the admin was also horrible; they were afraid of the parents. DH caught students cheating, and they didn't do anything because the parents complained! As long as the parent was vocal, the kids there could get away with murder! A few students threw another student off the bus- out the window!! NOTHING happened to them........admin's excuse was that it didn't happen on school property.

Kristi

[anythingelse]

I think it all depends on the principal and vice principal.

Kristi I totally agree with your statement and I think one of the easiest way to see how dif things can be in one or two neighboring districts is to sub around a bit.

it can be like night and day dif

[donimomof3]

observing admins

Originally posted by Vanna's Mom
Kristi I totally agree with your statement and I think one of the easiest way to see how dif things can be in one or two neighboring districts is to sub around a bit.

it can be like night and day dif

I think the idea to sub at a school is a good one, but also to talk to teachers at that school to get a feel for morale. My administrators interviewed 25 people on Friday (we're losing a BUNCH of teachers this year again). Every year prior to this one, candidates interviewed with a team of teachers before interviewing with the AP. This year, our principal did away with this process. Morale is so low at our school I can only imagine why. Plus the principal has not announced who is leaving and who is staying and she's asked those leaving to not broadcast it. Not that we haven't heard rumors - plus those retiring and resigning from the district were on the school board agenda last week - there are 15 of them.

Morale is terrible at my school and any teaching candidate who interviewed with teachers would be able to see it. My teammate and I talked on the phone last night and neither of us could think of a single teacher in the school who is happy being there. Those who are staying are doing so either because they hope things will get better, or they can't transfer right now because of logistics, or they are like me and just haven't heard yet if their transfer has been approved. I'm waiting on 3 middle school principals right now. All three want to hire me, but they are waiting for the go ahead from the county. Hopefully the county won't decide that our turn over is already too high. Thing is, I have to register Polly for kindergarten, so I really need to know where I am going to be so I can register her somewhere convenient. I know this much, my kids are NOT going to the school we are at next year even if I am back there.

I am sick of my kids crying every day because they hate their school. Hannah (my oldest) said the other day, "Mommy why is Dr. _____ principal at an elementary school when she really doesn't like kids?" I asked her what made her think that the principal didn't like kids, and she rolled her eyes and said, "Come on mom! Everyone can tell!" Fact is, the woman really doesn't like kids. Anyway, hopefully, I will be at a middle school next year (all our county middle schools follow the same comprehensive behavior plan with set consequences for actions), and my kids will be at a different elementary school.

[EFmom]

I agree that subbing would be a good way to experience different districts, but it's out of the question. DH needs to have a full time, benefit-bearing position, and quitting his full time tenured job (albeit in this lousy district) for sub work is not something I'm willing to entertain.

I don't think he is 100% ready to find a new job, but I'm keeping my eye on the employment ads. We have some sense as to which are the good districts to work for, and if something good opens up, I'm going to lean heavily on him to apply. But he's the sort of guy who tends to give himself (and me) an ulcer before he starts moving.

There was a job open last year in an excellent district (where our kids go to school), and I talked him into getting an application packet. It was the weirdest thing I've ever seen. The application was about 15 pages long, and they wanted such pertinent information as your class rank in grade school! He took a half hearted stab at filling it out, but never bothered to finish it, so I think that's left a bad taste in his mouth about looking for another job. Of course, not all districts have such looney applications, but I'll have to convince him of that.

[grisandole]

EF mom, are we married to the same guy? LOL My dh is the same way with finding a new job; he'd rather take the known evil than risk it........

Back in Oct/Nov, his school announced they had budget problems and might have to cut teacher salaries! DH was already unhappy, about the discipline issue as well as a bunch of other things, so once he found that out he applied for another job. He got offered the job! Longer commute, but better pay, much better working conditions (a real school not a charter school, teachers union, etc.), etc. HE DIDN'T TAKE IT!!!! His school begged him to stay, made him all sorts of promises, and told him the budget crisis was over. Because he hates change, and felt bad leaving the students mid year, he stayed. Well, guess what? Last week they cut teacher salaries, and were thinking of letting him go to save money! Once they realized they would only save a few hundred by laying him off, they cut his salary instead. Lovely.;

So I know how husbands can be. Tenure is nice, and I know once my dh gets it he'll never leave, lol! He is actively seeking a job for next year, at least! He has one offer, but it won't be offical until June.

Oh, and I kwym about the stupid applications. Most we've seen are okay, some have some essay questions, but then there are the mega-applications that is like writing a book! One school district out here asks for one of their essay questions "What is the role of the public school system in promoting America and a sense of pride and patriotism?" WTH????

Anyway, I hope things get better, maybe the vp will quit!

Kristi

[donimomof3]

You have got to be kidding!

Originally posted by EFmom


There was a job open last year in an excellent district (where our kids go to school), and I talked him into getting an application packet. It was the weirdest thing I've ever seen. The application was about 15 pages long, and they wanted such pertinent information as your class rank in grade school!

Who even remembers grade school?!? Unbelievable!

[Charles Baudelaire]

***Hi! Does that begin to answer your question about how I feel about our administrators? I'm a f/t HS teacher who's looking for a new job w/in our district because of our new principal.

In particular, how do they deal with discipline? Do you have a discipline policy and will they enforce it? Do they back you up or do they undermine you with parents and students?

***Well, to give you a hint on how it's going, since our new principal came in, the whole school's had a problem with attendance and discipline. Over 1/3 of my class is absent *every single day.* BTW, it's not just my class! When I was evaluated, I thought my work merited a higher evaluation and I was told that it would not be given to be because my failure rate was...over 1/3 of my class. Surprise, surprise! Though I pointed this fact out -- that it was hard to teach students who simply weren't there -- it was essentially made an irrelevant point.

**Students who don't like classes because they're failing are simply moved into other classes -- as are students who are failing because they plagiarized, because they assaulted other students, you name it. Around here, we joke that the unofficial motto of our school is "Keep 'Em Happy!"



He is having a horrible time maintaining any order in the classroom because the kids now realize that there are zero consequences for any misbehavior.

***I think I've been holding it together in my class largely due to their inertia and my personal charisma, such as it is. I don't think I have a lot of charisma, personally, but the students tell me they think I'm cool -- even the one who assaulted someone else the other day...sigh...so I have fewer discipline problems than some.

***However, where I *do* have problems is in not being able to pass students because they've realized there are no consequences for not doing work. Now that I'm being held to blame for *their* bad grades due to their attendance problems, hey -- forget my standards. They're ALL going to pass unless there's no way in hell I can justify it. That means my failure rate just dropped from 31% to 12% in one quarter...NOT because I suddenly became a better teacher or they became better students, but because I'll be damned if I'll be held responsible for something I'm not responsible for. They want their students to get A's and they don't care that those A's mean nothing? Sure! Happy to oblige.

HTH...and so sorry for your DH's situation.

[donimomof3]

The official motto of our school

Originally posted by Charles Baudelaire
:

**Students who don't like classes because they're failing are simply moved into other classes -- as are students who are failing because they plagiarized, because they assaulted other students, you name it. Around here, we joke that the unofficial motto of our school is "Keep 'Em Happy!"

We actually do have an official motto at our school
"Five Star Service!"

We are to give kids and parents "5 Star Service" at all times. You want fries with that?

This started this year. Last year the big thing was the Fish model (from Seattle Fish Company - choose your attitude, have fun, etc.). I feel like I work at McDonalds or something. Kids treat you with disrespect and the admin asks "Are you giving them 5 star service?" That's part of the problem. Parents and kids alike see us as servants who are there to do their bidding, not as professionals who are highly trained to educate children.