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When peer pressure becomes coercion - Page 2

post #21 of 52
That is horrifying.

What's really sad is that I can see this making the spread of AIDS and other STDs even worse because men who have been circumcised will think they are protected. A slightly reduced risk does not equal no risk. The people who are pushing this are not even thinking through the consequences.
post #22 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by eepster View Post
The soccer deal sounds very reminiscent of what missionaries did back in the colonial days.
Seriously. This whole situation makes me want to vomit.
post #23 of 52
Funny how quickly it went from "These HIV studies are being done on consenting adult volunteers; we have no plans to circumcise babies; we're all about helping consenting adults make their own decisions about how best to reduce their own risk of acquiring HIV" and so on to:
"We want to circumcise every male in Africa who is alive now, and then get all the new ones, too, as soon as they are born."

Jen
post #24 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by WTHamI? View Post
That is horrifying.

What's really sad is that I can see this making the spread of AIDS and other STDs even worse because men who have been circumcised will think they are protected. A slightly reduced risk does not equal no risk. The people who are pushing this are not even thinking through the consequences.
Yes, though the idea of so many men and boys losing a healthy functional part of their penises is sad, and a few will suffer from more major complications; the true tragedy will be in the numbers that will contract and spread HIV b/c they are being sold on this protection and will substitute it for safe sex.
post #25 of 52
It really baffles me that European researchers can say this IN Europe, where the majority of the male population is intact, and have no one balk at such blatantly inflammatory presentations. Sad.
post #26 of 52
It also seems like the whole initiative has racist undertones. "Let's circumcise all of the black Africans, but the white Europeans can use other means to prevent HIV."
post #27 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by WTHamI? View Post
That is horrifying.

What's really sad is that I can see this making the spread of AIDS and other STDs even worse because men who have been circumcised will think they are protected. A slightly reduced risk does not equal no risk. The people who are pushing this are not even thinking through the consequences.
Exactly! How do these circumcisers explain the rates of HIV infection and other STDs in the U.S. where the majority of adult males are circumcised?
post #28 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by buckeyedoc View Post
It also seems like the whole initiative has racist undertones. "Let's circumcise all of the black Africans, but the white Europeans can use other means to prevent HIV."
post #29 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by billikengirl View Post
Exactly! How do these circumcisers explain the rates of HIV infection and other STDs in the U.S. where the majority of adult males are circumcised?
Yeah, someone recently addressed that in another thread. To paraphrase: "lucky thing all the men in the U.S. were circumcised or the AIDS epidemic here would have been way, way worse than it was."

Fear-mongering, in other words. Quick, circumcise everybody or we'll have even more infections!!

Jen
post #30 of 52
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Papai View Post
It really baffles me that European researchers can say this IN Europe, where the majority of the male population is intact, and have no one balk at such blatantly inflammatory presentations. Sad.
It's interesting... we had a lot of Europeans stop by and chat with us in Vienna, and they were baffled by our opposition to mass circumcision as an HIV containment strategy. By and large, their attitude was, "So what? Circumcision is no big deal. From what I've heard, it doesn't really change anything (function, sensation, etc.)."

So, we said, "Oh, so you wouldn't mind being circumcised, or having someone circumcise your children?" That's when they said, "Over my dead body!!"

When we told them that Africa is just the opening salvo in a movement to "normalize" circumcision further and spread the practice to every continent, they just chuckled and said, "Don't be ridiculous, it would never happen here. Let them cut all of Africa for all we care; Europeans are too sensible to allow anything like that to reach us."

Hmmm. That response sounded to me a little too much like the famous quote of Martin Niemöller that begins, ""They came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist." You know the rest.


Quote:
Originally Posted by billikengirl View Post
Exactly! How do these circumcisers explain the rates of HIV infection and other STDs in the U.S. where the majority of adult males are circumcised?
As JenP said, the pro-circ crowd says, "Whew, thank goodness most of our boys were already circumcised or our HIV profile would be like Africa's!"

Utter nonsense. The appropriate comparison for the US would be Canada, or Western Europe. Point of fact, for the past 20 years Western Europe has had heterosexual HIV transmission rates ranging from US parity (Spain & Portugal, right next to Africa) to approximately 1/8 that of the US (Scandinavia). On average, it's about 1/4 the US rate, with similar profiles for condom use and injected drug use. Maybe it's intact sex organs that's actually protecting Western Europe, which is not an outrageous idea. It has been known for several years now that moist mucosal tissue is a super-strong barrier to bacterial and viral infection -- unlike the dried glans and everted mucosa of the circumcised penis -- and circumcised men are more prone to microtearing of their own penile tissue and the vaginal lining of their partners. This nonsense from the African researchers about the benefits of a keratinized glans and the danger from Langerhans cells in the foreskin is mumbo-jumbo... it has absolutely no support in the published medical literature. It's a hole in their theory that you can drive a Range Rover through.

One UCSF researcher had the unmitigated gall to tell me that to his way of thinking, the US could have been 25% more protected from HIV with a 100% male circ rate, and Europe could have had no HIV at all if they adopted circumcision. I told him he had it completely backward... probably the US could have avoided more than half of our cases of HIV if we didn't circumcise at all. Per the Laumann study, sex overall would have been less risky and condom use would have been higher, since circumcised men complain more about feeling almost nothing with a condom on.

I want to scream when I see what is happening in East/South Africa. With 1 to 2 billion dollars now earmarked for circumcision, those governments could ensure the sterility of needles and scalpels, provide a wide variety of condoms for men to try, educate much more extensively, and make antiretrovirals widely available. It would virtually halt HIV in 5 years. But then, no one is making career headlines with such boring solutions.
post #31 of 52
So they have no reasonable argument as to why circ is better than intact. Instead they have to use unethical bribery...

Interesting. Perhaps we are making progress...but is too bad that vulnerable people will be unethically and improperly treated against their wishes, and before they can make an informed decision of their own.
post #32 of 52
I know we are all horrified but what can we do to get the word out and put pressure on these groups so they can't get away with this?
post #33 of 52
On PSI.org they list the other speakers as Dr. but Circo is Mr.
post #34 of 52
This whole business seems strangely reminiscent of this episode in U.S. history:

Quote:
Solving the "Negro rape problem"
Yet another advantage of circumcision

In the 1880s there were suggestions that African Americans should be forcibly circumcised as part of a campaign against venereal disease. It was asserted that they were irredeemably promiscuous and impossible to educate in the laws of hygiene...
http://www.historyofcircumcision.net...d=63&Itemid=52
post #35 of 52
This makes me feel physically ill.

It is absolutely racist when the powerful educated White Man goes into developing nations with the "I know better than you do what's best for you and your people" attitude. The only way I can wrap my head around it is by reminding myself that most of the researchers, at least the American ones, truly think it is in everybody's best interest to be circumcised. As for the Europeans who think it is fine for Africans, but not for themselves... it's just inexcusable.
post #36 of 52
This is very disturbing. I understand that Uganda is one country that has done a decent job offering circ only to adults who request it, although I'm sure there have been exceptions...Just in case anyone has an interest in looking at it as a policy "best practice". Unfortunately I don't have any details.
post #37 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by brant31 View Post
I want to scream when I see what is happening in East/South Africa. With 1 to 2 billion dollars now earmarked for circumcision, those governments could ensure the sterility of needles and scalpels, provide a wide variety of condoms for men to try, educate much more extensively, and make antiretrovirals widely available. It would virtually halt HIV in 5 years. But then, no one is making career headlines with such boring solutions.
Also, the problem would be mostly "solved," and funding would go away. No one who makes a living off of HIV solutions actually wants the solution to materialize.
post #38 of 52
it seems so strange to me that people would act this way. like, it isn't that i doubt it (that the people funding this and doing the studies aren't doing for the money and not what is actually best for the people) i just have a hard time wrapping my mind around that sort of behavior. it makes me mad, sick, sad.

h
post #39 of 52
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NSmomtobe View Post
This makes me feel physically ill.

It is absolutely racist when the powerful educated White Man goes into developing nations with the "I know better than you do what's best for you and your people" attitude.

As for the Europeans who think it is fine for Africans, but not for themselves... it's just inexcusable.
We had quite a few Africans come talk to us in Vienna and, when I explained to them that circumcision was unnecessary, they said that one very convincing argument used repeatedly at home was that "All North American and European males are cut at birth." From this lie, the African men concluded that circumcision was universal in the First World and a very wise health decision.

I quizzed both African men and women about their knowledge of circ prevalence. Almost without fail, they guessed the US rate at 100% and the European rate at 100%. When I told them the European neonatal circ rate is under 2% and always has been, the US rate has fallen nearly to 50%, and Canada and Australia are on their way to abandoning RIC, they were floored. And angry. You could see the betrayal in their eyes.

In a sense, they were right. Bailey, Gray, Wawer and the others are telling Africans that circumcision is what clean, prosperous people do. But that is their opinion, not a fact about the state of the planet.
post #40 of 52
The thing that really gets me is that they justify their lies under the guise of "public health." When called on their crap (and it IS crap, like the circ rates lie of the previous poster), they explain it away by saying, "Well, if we told the truth they wouldn't agree to be circumcised and since it is SO important that we circumcise them to reduce HIV and AIDS, we should do whatever we can to convince them to get circumcised for the greater good." And they get away with it! People accept that excuse! The mind boggles.

ETA: I would love to see the handouts. OP, is it possible for you to scan them and let us see them?
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