concerned that my kids need to get cp soon!

[allmine]

My oldest child is almost 13.
My kids are not vaxed.

I am concerned that they need to get cp sooner rather than later because older age brings complications with cp.

But, when asking around in my area, it has become clear to me that this is contraversial. I've had moms site the words of Dr Sears on his website..how he discourages chicken pox parties....

I feel confused by all this. I just know I want my kids to gain natural immunity from chicken pox.

But, then I fear they will not get a strong immunity if they don't ever get exposure after having the disease itself. What's to come for the future of chicken pox? My daughter, I don't want her to get pregnant as a twenty something year old bride and not have natural immuntiy to cp.

I also wonder- how long does the immunity really last from the vaccine? Does it wear off about the time the child becomes at greater risk of complications of the disease?

What do you guys think about all this? I try to discuss it with family members and they look at me like I have two heads.

My pedi tolerates our non vaxed status. I have to sign forms but that is it. She recommends the The Vaccine Book, which in and of itself is confusing to me because in that book the cp vaccine is presented as one that has risks, if I read it right...but she herself, though she recommends the book, says that she just thinks there is no problems with the cp vax.

[Lisa1970]

The same people discouraging the pox parties are the same ones who are trying to sell you their product, the pox shot. The pox shot is one of the most disgusting ones out there that I won't bend on(read how it is made and what it is made of from the manufacturers website or the product insert which you can get a copy of at rxlist, any words you do not understand, google for full understanding, such as the term wi-38). You should not either. I would look for someone, anyone, with the pox, and go asap an expose them. Children are not contagious when they feel better so you need to go as soon as possible. Good luck! And remember, some people are naturally immune and will never get the pox. So if you try and they don't get it, don't stress

[Lisa1970]

I want to add, aside from the obvious issue, of what varicella shot is made of, is the fact that the pox shot is know to wear off within 10 yrs. Your child will have to get and re-get that shot, every ten years, for the rest of her life. What happens if she is pregnant when the 10 years comes due? Or has cancer? Or has someone in her home who is immune suppressed? Or is 80 yrs old so it is too much of a risk? Or what if she is just a typical 20-some year old who does not want to go in and get a vaccination?

[Marnica]

Well...I am a non-vaxer myself. But if I was (and I considered a few and always continue to learn and keep an open mind) CP is the absolute last vax I would ever consdier getting.

CP CAN cause complications in adults....it can also cause complications in children. This doesn't mean that every single adult who gets CP will be deathly ill. I had CP in my early 20's. It wasn't fun, but I certainly didn't have complications or need any medical care. I hung out in an oatmeal bath for a week and watched alot of bad TV. I had pox EVERWHERE and in every crevis if you know what I mean

I also know much more about how to treat infectous disease than I did then. I am of the opinion that many of the complications (Not all of course) of Cp cases are due to HOW the disease is handled/treated ect, not necessarily from CP itself. I hope my son gets CP when he is a kid. I may even expose him if I have the chance, but if he hasn't had them by 18 yo, he will then be able to make up his own mind about the vaccine.

Here are a few facts about this vaccine:
The strain used to make the vaccine was taken live from a child with naturally occurring chickenpox, initially cultured in aborted human embryo lung cells, then unborn guinea pig embryo cells, and then human diploid (aborted embryo) cells again. (ewww)

In 2002 the CDC specifically stated that "the effectiveness of the vaccine was 44 percent against disease of any severity and 86 percent against moderate or severe disease." (doesn't seem all that effective to me)

As with other vaccines, the varicella vaccine has not been evaluated for its carcinogenic or mutagenic potential, or its potential to impair fertility. This means that no one knows whether or not this vaccine causes cancer or makes people sterile, and no studies have been conducted to find out.

List of side effects from the package insert:
Arthralgia
Eczema/dry skin/dermatitis
Constipation
Itching
Pneumonitis
Febrile seizures
Cold/canker sores
Anaphylaxis
Thrombocytopenia
Encephalitis
Cerebrovascular accident
Transverse myelitis
Guillain-Barre Syndrome
Bell's Palsy
Ataxia
Non-febrile seizures
Aseptic meningitis
Dizziness
Paresthesia
Pharyngitis
Stevens-Johnson Syndrome
Erythema multiforme
Henoch-Schonlein purpura
Secondary bacterial infections of skin and soft tissue
Herpes Zoster

[Lisa1970]

Plus, there have been 3 and 4 yr olds getting Shingles now. How will you feel if you get the shot now, and in 3 yrs, she has Shingles? It is not a rare complication. I was on a board that was local area moms and several preschoolers had Shingles.

[allmine]

geez louise, a lot to consider!!!

tysm for the replies!!

ok, so folks have to get the cp vax every 10 years!! I had no idea! Is that really true and recommended????

I don' t like that list of how it is made, nor do I like the list of possible side effects.

And, are you saying that kids are getting shingles after getting the cp vax????

[mgg]

Originally Posted by allmine

ok, so folks have to get the cp vax every 10 years!! I had no idea! Is that really true and recommended????

No. It is not true. and no, it is not recommended. At the current time, only two doses of varicella are recommended.

Initially, there was only one dose, but longitudinal studies demonstrated enough of a decrease in immunity over time that a second dose was recommended. So far, there is no evidence of a significant long term drop after two doses. The initial study groups were conducted over 30 years ago in Japan, and those who received two dose are still yet to show a significant decline.

The fact is that the vast majority of people will demonstrate non-waning long term immunity after one dose. But the two dose regimen will push those numbers even higher. It's the same model that is used for two doses of the MMR.

Like the MMR, if someone didn't want to get a second dose, they could always have titers drawn. Keep in mind however, that if someone has only one dose, titers should be rechecked on a fairly consistent basis (no medical consensus, but I suggest to my patients every 3-5 years in childhood, and every 10 after that).

[mgg]

Originally Posted by Marnica

List of side effects from the package insert:
Arthralgia
Eczema/dry skin/dermatitis
Constipation
Itching
Pneumonitis
Febrile seizures
Cold/canker sores
Anaphylaxis
Thrombocytopenia
Encephalitis
Cerebrovascular accident
Transverse myelitis
Guillain-Barre Syndrome
Bell's Palsy
Ataxia
Non-febrile seizures
Aseptic meningitis
Dizziness
Paresthesia
Pharyngitis
Stevens-Johnson Syndrome
Erythema multiforme
Henoch-Schonlein purpura
Secondary bacterial infections of skin and soft tissue
Herpes Zoster

This is all true. HOWEVER, I would like you to come back and report the incidence rates of these complications. I think it's very misleading to only tell half the story. And you know what? So do you!

You see, I could make the following completely true statement about what chickenpox does to children:

-Extended hospitalization
-Severe bacterial infection
-sepsis
-permanent GI disfunction
-Permanent neurologic impairment
-blindness
-death

If I did, you would accuse me of using scare tactics to make my point. The fact is the above brief list is just some of the possible complications of chickenpox, listed from more common to less common. That is much like your list. But without reporting the incidence I think it is all misleading.

Let's put it in perspective. The odds of any of the following happening (from your list, the potential complications):


Anaphylaxis
Encephalitis
Cerebrovascular accident
Transverse myelitis
Ataxia
Non-febrile seizures
Aseptic meningitis
Stevens-Johnson Syndrome

were altogether about half as likely as one complication from my list:

Death

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by mgg

This is all true. HOWEVER, I would like you to come back and report the incidence rates of these complications. I think it's very misleading to only tell half the story. And you know what? So do you!

You see, I could make the following completely true statement about what chickenpox does to children:

-Extended hospitalization
-Severe bacterial infection
-sepsis
-permanent GI disfunction
-Permanent neurologic impairment
-blindness
-death

If I did, you would accuse me of using scare tactics to make my point. The fact is the above brief list is just some of the possible complications of chickenpox, listed from more common to less common. That is much like your list. But without reporting the incidence I think it is all misleading.

Let's put it in perspective. The odds of any of the following happening (from your list, the potential complications):


Anaphylaxis
Encephalitis
Cerebrovascular accident
Transverse myelitis
Ataxia
Non-febrile seizures
Aseptic meningitis
Stevens-Johnson Syndrome

were altogether about half as likely as one complication from my list:

Death

I said nothing about incidence or the likelyhood of any of those things on the list happening. I merely listed possible side effects from the insert. I did not say that those things on the list were more likely to happen than a complication from CP. So to say my post is misleading is well........ wrong. Most folks here understand that there are risks no matter what side you fall on in terms of choice here.

as for the need for boosters give it time.....

Follow-up studies are ongoing to determine how long protection will last and to evaluate the need and timing for booster vaccination. If it is determined in the future that a booster dose is necessary, your health-care provider will inform you.

[PinkinPA]

Most folks here understand that there are risks no matter what side you fall on in terms of choice here.

It seems to me that the risks to being vaccinated are more devistating than any illness.


I am the mother of four and I have never had any ped ever mention to me that I had an option of titers or I had the option to not have vaccines.


and growing up when chicken pox was normal, I have never seen

-Extended hospitalization
-Severe bacterial infection
-sepsis
-permanent GI disfunction
-Permanent neurologic impairment
-blindness
-death
nor heard rumors of such side effects and judging by social reactions I don't think the majority of the public has either.

[mgg]

Originally Posted by Marnica

I said nothing about incidence or the likelyhood of any of those things on the list happening.

That's the problem. Putting information out there without putting it in context can be interpreted as a scare tactic. In fact, those opposed to immunizations accuse physicians of exactly that constantly. just as I think it is wrong for me to tell a mother that she should immunize against varicella because her child might die, I think it is ethically questionable to throw out a list of side effects without putting them in context. That's all I'm saying.

Originally Posted by Marnica

as for the need for boosters give it time.....

I will, and in time I could be wrong. But so far, over thirty years of observation has shown a very similar model to the long term immunity of measles (which is why the schedule is so similar). I agree with your statement of give it time. But that's a far cry from the comment I was responding to:

"...is the fact that the pox shot is know to wear off within 10 yrs. Your child will have to get and re-get that shot, every ten years, for the rest of her life."

[chaoticzenmom]

Here's my take on it, for what it's worth. My first child was vaccinated for chicken pox. He's 10 now. None of the others were vaccinated. My 3rd child acquired it from a chicken pox party at 3yrs old. It was very easy (possibly a weak strain from a vaccination). My 2nd child didn't acquire it and she's now 8. I have a 1yo who will need it.

I'm going to try again to get cp for all 3 of them. I'll start looking for it next year. If my daughter does not get it by 13, I'll have her titers checked and then vaccinate her if she's not immune.

The problem with the chicken pox vaccine is that it's keeping elder people from getting their natural boosters. So, now older people are getting sick with the virus, even though they may have had cp as children. The "lifetime immunity" counted on repeated exposure throughout your lifetime which doesn't happen now. The vaccine has created the need for itself. So, even if your child does get cp naturally, he may still need to be immunized later in life for it, unless people realize how harmful the vaccine really is and put an end to this madness

I found an article that explains it.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/ar...-shingles.html

[allmine]

boy this thread is good.

See, I think making these decisions is about the HARDEST thing I have to do as a mother of five.

All good stuff on here. Good discussion.

*************************************

new question....

When are the two cp shots to be given on a typical schedule. Just curious.

I just feel stuck in the mud on this whole topic. I can see it both ways and to be honest will prolly remain a non-vaxers...but oh boy this topic tears me up everytime I go there, ya know?!

[allmine]

Originally Posted by chaoticzenmom

The problem with the chicken pox vaccine is that it's keeping elder people from getting their natural boosters. So, now older people are getting sick with the virus, even though they may have had cp as children. The "lifetime immunity" counted on repeated exposure throughout your lifetime which doesn't happen now. The vaccine has created the need for itself. So, even if your child does get cp naturally, he may still need to be immunized later in life for it, unless people realize how harmful the vaccine really is and put an end to this madness

I found an article that explains it.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/ar...-shingles.html

see that whole issue bothers me , too. That's why I am concerned. Even if my kids get cp from a pox party, will they even have a chance to have lifetime immunity due to the limited exposure they will get for the rest of their life?

I wonder if the cp vax has caused more problems than it will ever be able to solve...at least for those of us who don't get it..and even for those that do...

[Arduinna]

eh my mom is in her 60s and had CP 3x for whatever reason. As a non vaxer, we never did it and now my kid is an adult and even though she was exposed she never got it. I'm not vaxing for it, even though she can obviously make her own decision now.

[13Sandals]

we've had a case of shingles in a 5th grader here too....when, when did you ever hear of young children getting shingles. the cp vaccine policy is madness. and the shingles rate for 9-18 year olds has risen over 63% since mass childhood cp vaccination. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19536039

I used to think I'd worry about the cp shot when my kids were teens - now, frankly, it just doesn't matter anymore. Merck's own study showed that the shingles recurrence rate in the elderly increased three-fold since 1996 (widespread use of cp vaccine in kids)....so, what are the options?

Are we really going to sign up for life-long cp/shingles boosters because the initial vaccine creates lifelong disease rather than creates true herd immunity? Are we to collapse and sign up for cradle to grave vaccines for something kids can and should get with no difficulties? Gee mgg - those complications you list are almost always from hospitals, hospital acquired infections, kids on steroids...kids having their cp symptoms treated when the symptoms are the body's only way of expelling the toxin!

No thanks. best bet is a strong immune system.

[lovingmommyhood]

My son is due for his varicella booster next week before entrance to kindergarten. I was planning on getting that along with the MMR booster but now I'm not so sure. I have my exemption form ready for the polio and DTaP vax should I add varicella to it? I was under the impression that if I did not get him the booster he has a high chance of getting shingles if exposed to CP. Am I wrong? My other two children ages 2 & 4 have not had any CP vax.

[Asiago]

Quick story....when my husband and I were interviewing pediatricians during my pregnancy, we had a conversation with one pertaining to the Varicella vaccine. The doctor said something to the effect of "when I was a child my mother wanted to expose us (siblings) so that we would contract CP while young".

As per myself I believe I contracted Chicken Pox when I was about 12 years of age. I had ONE pock mark in my armpit.

[CookAMH]

I am not concerned with "complications" with CP. They are very rare and generally do not occur in healthy people. CP as an adult is a pain, sure, but any educated person can properly treat at home and get through it fine.

That said, I wouldn't mind finding CP for my child to get it done and over with as a teen.

[blessedwithboys]

Originally Posted by lovingmommyhood

My son is due for his varicella booster next week before entrance to kindergarten. I was planning on getting that along with the MMR booster but now I'm not so sure. I have my exemption form ready for the polio and DTaP vax should I add varicella to it? I was under the impression that if I did not get him the booster he has a high chance of getting shingles if exposed to CP. Am I wrong? My other two children ages 2 & 4 have not had any CP vax.

Is it possible to pick and choose like that? I thought it was all or nothing.