I'm back...DD won't sleep without me.

[justKate]

As I'm typing, it's 9:10 and DD (18 months) has been screaming on and off since 7:45. Huz is with her and has been except for the 10 minutes when she slept.

Basically, she just won't sleep without me. Refuses, fights, screams, does anything she can to stay awake until I go to bed with her.

Our routine starts when she gets whiny/sleepy, or says "nigh night" a couple of times, usually btw. 6:45 and 7:15.
Climb up the stairs together.
Nigh night to daddy.
Get PJs + diaper.
Take bath, brush teeth.
Get massage with lotion (which she loves).
Drink of water, paci, baby doll, book (all in our bedroom).
Scream hysterically when mama takes the book.
Lay down to nigh night in our bed (mama, DD, daddy sleep together).
UP, down up down up down. Screaming. up down up down up down. Will not lay down. Will not get out of the bed, even though I don't make her stay. Cuddles mama, tries to bite mama's nose. Hits mama's face, scratches mama. Screaming the entire time. Screaming if I leave.
After 45 minutes or so, Huz switches with me, and she doesn't hurt him but just screams.
Finally I give in around 10 and go to sleep with her; Huz and I having shared a total of 10 minutes together for the evening. It's not fair.

We have blackout shades, fan on, temperature good, weighted blanket. Her own pillow. A baby doll.
She was weaned about a month ago, mostly because I just couldn't take it any more. We've ruled out reflux. We've put tubes in her ears. Deep pressure over her body used to help her sleep, but now she can even resist that. Just letting her play isn't an option, because she will tantrum when she's tired, throwing herself around, wanting up, wanting down, screaming the entire time, just as if she were in bed trying to sleep. Driving her around isn't an option because she always wakes when moved. Rocking infuriates her. Walking with her stimulates her.

It's 9:30 and I just heard her say "mama" through the monitor. Huz is still upstairs with her. I've read NCSS--I don't get it. That must be for agreeable babies.

She does sleep well once she gets to sleep now that she's weaned, but the evenings are awful. Please tell me there are more options. I'm just out of ideas.

And honestly, what reason is there not to CIO in her crib when she's screaming all evening in our bed anyway? *talk me down from the ledge, please*

[chely7425]

Would she do better in her own space? Not saying CIO, but both my kids get really overstimulated and really can't sleep with us or they are just up ad throwing fits and being generally miserable.

[Smithie]

You are doing so well. Your DH is doing so well. I am proud of you.

If your DD can't settle down in your bed, it's time for her to have her own bed. That exact same turn-taking thing you are doing now, you can do in her room. When she falls asleep, and she WILL if you are just patient and consistent enough, then you can have some time together.

I wouldn't even get in her bed. Sit next to it on the floor, hold her hand maybe. I went through this with all three of my kids, in a much more minor way. We had some miserable nights until I accepted that my presence (and the dog, and the cat, and DH) impeded their ability to fall asleep. In their own rooms, they did much better. And I did much better, getting some decent sleep myself without being kicked and having my face clawed at

[kalamos23]

It's not you - I promise!! You have a "spirited" child. I have one too (she's 25mo) and the normal things do NOT work for her -when she gets tired, she gets hyper and MORE energetic. From Monday at 4pm- Tuesday at 8pm she slept a total of 6 hours. This was after playing with friends all day long and going to Gymboree at night - and she was running around like crazy at Gymboree. DD still sleeps practically on me - she won't sleep without me as well.

Anyway, what we have found that works. When she gets to the point where she is getting hyper and over stimulated and obviously tired, the only was I can get her to sleep is to literally hold her down - either put her in a wrap on me tightly swaddling her basically, turning off all the lights and nursing her to sleep (I'd give your daughter a paci in lieu maybe?) stroller rides (it's really quiet in our neighborhood) where we stroll at a steady pace, and don't talk or stimulate her at all, sometimes I will have her sit out with me while I play on the laptop and nurse until she gets bored enough to go to sleep - I wrap my arm around her).

Basically you want to create an environment where there is lots of either white noise (which it sounds like you have) and NO other stimulation or a situation where she is so bored and not stimulated that she will go to sleep. You know your daughter best, so you might have to play with what works for her. I am still struggling with DD - it seems like we get maybe 2 weeks or figuring things out and then bang, she changes things up.

I highly highly reccommend "Raising Your Spirited Child" - I am reading this and it's eyeopening! Basically she says that spirited kids have a hard time turning things off, they are sometimes slow to adapt to situations and once they get one thing in their mind, it's hard to change it. You sound like you have a really great routine down, but for whatever reason, it's not working right now for her. It might work for her in a month, you just never know. Have you asked her what she wants? I'm just curious, it seems like when I give DD control of things to some extent (and I'm talking things that don't really matter so much, like if we read Hop on Pop vs. Cat in the Hat) she does better - allowing her some control lets both of us win.

(((hugs))) I know how rough it is. If you need an ear, I always welcome PMs

[justKate]

Originally Posted by Smithie

You are doing so well. Your DH is doing so well. I am proud of you.

If your DD can't settle down in your bed, it's time for her to have her own bed. That exact same turn-taking thing you are doing now, you can do in her room. When she falls asleep, and she WILL if you are just patient and consistent enough, then you can have some time together.

I wouldn't even get in her bed. Sit next to it on the floor, hold her hand maybe. I went through this with all three of my kids, in a much more minor way. We had some miserable nights until I accepted that my presence (and the dog, and the cat, and DH) impeded their ability to fall asleep. In their own rooms, they did much better. And I did much better, getting some decent sleep myself without being kicked and having my face clawed at

Thank you. It seems like we've tried so hard and we're just running out of steam. Her crib is in our room, and Huz will lose his mind if I ask him to take it apart to move to another room (or out of the way) again this year. So maybe I could sit next to it and try to comfort her until she sleeps? But I know she'd be screaming the entire time. I guess that's not technically CIO, but it would feel like torture for her....

Originally Posted by kalamos23

It's not you - I promise!! You have a "spirited" child. I have one too (she's 25mo) and the normal things do NOT work for her -when she gets tired, she gets hyper and MORE energetic. From Monday at 4pm- Tuesday at 8pm she slept a total of 6 hours. This was after playing with friends all day long and going to Gymboree at night - and she was running around like crazy at Gymboree. DD still sleeps practically on me - she won't sleep without me as well.

Anyway, what we have found that works. When she gets to the point where she is getting hyper and over stimulated and obviously tired, the only was I can get her to sleep is to literally hold her down - either put her in a wrap on me tightly swaddling her basically, turning off all the lights and nursing her to sleep (I'd give your daughter a paci in lieu maybe?) stroller rides (it's really quiet in our neighborhood) where we stroll at a steady pace, and don't talk or stimulate her at all, sometimes I will have her sit out with me while I play on the laptop and nurse until she gets bored enough to go to sleep - I wrap my arm around her).

You're so right. I've started Raising Your Spirited Child, but I got discouraged because it seemed more geared towards verbal kids, which DD is really not. She's had an OT eval for sensory issues, and is definitely sensory-seeking. Sensational Kids and The Out of Sync Child also seemed more geared towards verbal kids, but maybe it's time to pick them back up. For the first 14 months or so, we could hold DD down and she would sleep, but then the nursing and the pressure stopped working. Maybe boring her to sleep is the next option....

The fact that she doesn't communicate well makes it hard to give her choices. I try to do it all at her pace--let her run away from me and come back to get dressed, massage more when she signs "more," give her the doll when she says "baby". But ultimately all she says is "nah" over and over. I try to ask if she needs a diaper, if she wants to eat, where's your paci, does something ouch, will you lay down please, lay down, LAY DOWN, but all she says is "nah" while trying to hit my face. I try to be respectful of her "nah" during the day, and tell her "okay, no means no", but of course that doesn't apply to safety issues, hurting mama, and bedtime (I guess). I'm just not sure what I'm doing wrong!

Well thanks for your thoughts. We're going out of town this weekend, so I think next week I'll try putting her in the crib and sitting next to it and reading a book or something. Maybe I should get a special soft toy for her to have in the crib with her?

[justKate]

Originally Posted by chely7425

Would she do better in her own space? Not saying CIO, but both my kids get really overstimulated and really can't sleep with us or they are just up ad throwing fits and being generally miserable.

I'm starting to think that. One of my cousins in FL has two boys named Trent and Trevor, but they're a bit older than your boys--neat coincidence.

[chely7425]

Originally Posted by justKate

I'm starting to think that. One of my cousins in FL has two boys named Trent and Trevor, but they're a bit older than your boys--neat coincidence.

LOL that is cool But really, most of our sleep issues (the big ones anyway) went away when the kids got their own space. The older 2 are going to need to share a room at some point in the next 6-12 months though so it could get interesting...

[AirMiami]

I know it seems a little ridiculous, but we still swaddle our 18 month old for naps. She won't sleep otherwise! Since she is sensory seeking, she might feel better being swaddled. I have a high needs, spirited child as well, and she just doesn't seem to need to sleep like other children do. :\

[EzzysMom]

Re: your hubbie wanting to scream at moving the crib, how about your just move the mattress on the floor somewhere else? no need to do major construction to give it a try. I'm sorry for your struggles, sleep issues are maddening.

[justKate]

Originally Posted by EzzysMom

Re: your hubbie wanting to scream at moving the crib, how about your just move the mattress on the floor somewhere else? no need to do major construction to give it a try. I'm sorry for your struggles, sleep issues are maddening.

Yeah I could take the mattress in "her" room and put it on the floor. Definitely no room in ours to put it on the floor. And I would be afraid of her being stepped on in our room anyway...

[LadyCatherine185]

just a few suggestions-- you said you wait until she says "nigh night" or acts sleepy to start the bedtime routine. And your routine sounds really long. To me, it seems like she is getting passed the tired stage during that time and getting her "second wind" which is making it hard for her to calm down. Sounds like you are missing her "sleep window." What we had to do for my DS (who is also a sleep fighter, btw) is notice when he gets tired, for him it is about 9:00. So, we start bedtime "routine" at 8, BEFORE he is tired. We dim the lights in the living room, turn off the tv, all of us sit on the couch and we read for a little while. During this time we tell him "it's almost time for bed, few more minutes." Then we move onto teeth, pj's, and "cuddle" in his bed (he sleeps in a twin bed in his own room now). Once he starts to get clearly tired/antsy I leave the room and DH holds him on the bed until he is asleep. This gives him time to wind down before he is actually tired, because once they hit that tired stage, they have to go to sleep RIGHT THEN, and if you pass it, they become overstimulated.

another suggestion-- we had a lot of luck with moving DS to his own room/bed. He was waking every 1-2 hours all night, and I nightweaned him (in my bed) and then moved him to his own bed. He now only wakes maybe once a night and DH goes in to resettle him. Perhaps her own space would work better. Try a mattress on the floor, like a PP suggested. Or, you could put her in her crib and sit beside it and just try and soothe her that way.

Have you read Sleepless in America? That book has a LOT of great advice for daytime structure/routines to help maximize nighttime sleep and help sleep fighters. I got a lot of great tips from there.

[Smithie]

" maybe I could sit next to it and try to comfort her until she sleeps? But I know she'd be screaming the entire time. I guess that's not technically CIO, but it would feel like torture for her..."

If you are there, it's not CIO.

My most difficult sleeper (middle child) wound up on her crib mattress in a stripped down babyproofed room (I put the dresser in the closet, bolted a low shelf to the wall, took out the lamp, etc.). She hated the bars of the crib, and she hated the noise/heat/movement of the family bed. I would lie on the floor next to the crib mattress and pat her until she dropped off. She actually didn't cry (although she had cried inconsolably in the crib).

[justKate]

LadyCatherine, thanks for responding. I've followed your progress with Liam and I know you've been there! I really need Sleepless in America--I just haven't bought any more sleep books after NCSS because it was such a disappointment (for my kid, obviously, I know it works for others).

I think trying her in her room on the crib mattress is a great idea. Its already babyproofed and I could put her toys in the closet to minimize distractions...I would need a gate to go at the door, but that is do-able. Hmm..

Thanks for all of the idaes.

[LadyCatherine185]

Sleepless in America is totally different from NCSS. It talks about the whole kid, and the whole day.. not just a gentle method for training. It is about setting up your entire schedule for sleep success. Much better than NCSS, IMO.

[justKate]

Last night I moved the crib mattress onto the floor in DD's room, against the futon that's in there (sitting up the couch-way). I got myself a pillow and blanket and put away all but the soft toys. Gated the door. Layed down on the futon and let DD lay on the crib mattress, climb all over me, do her usual nighttime tantruming while I pretended to sleep. I started by telling her that I was nigh night over and over, shushhing, etc., then just played dead for the last half hour. After 2 1/2 hours, she fell asleep just cuddling the one arm I had hanging down on her mattress.



She slept there until 4:00 a.m., when Huz brought her to bed with us. Then of course she slept through breakfast and daycare drop off. I'm going to try this for a week, and see whether it is realistic to continue. Wish me luck!!