ISO opinions: mw conflicts and rumors

[MsBlack]

So--what do you think when someone tells you negative rumors they've heard about a mw? How about when you hear such rumors about one mw from another mw you are interviewing--even one you like--or are told by a friend/acquaintance that her Mw 'A' says such-and-such about another Mw, 'B'?

If someone you like/respect tells you things about mws that she has never met...or you hear things (while interviewing mws) from one mw about another, what do you do/think/feel about that?

Have rumors you've heard from people who never used a particular mw, ever affected your willingness to meet a particular mw?

Remember I'm talking about rumors: things that do not come from actual eyewitness of events, nor from actual clients of, and possibly not even acquainted at all with the mw you are hearing about.

people talk. What are your reactions and responses when the talk is about mws in your community, and you discover that this talk is originating from the mws themselves (or at least from one)?

[MegBoz]

If MW A said something negative about MW B based on pure rumor I'd be much more inclined to think ill of MW A than I would of MW B.

Spreading rumors is just so unprofessional. Especially for HB MWs in the US - there aren't that many of you, you're threatened on many sides (direct-entry MWs here in Maryland are actually illegal), so it makes sense for all MWs & midwifery advocates to stick together.

There was one bad thing on a discussion forum about one of our CPMs - pretty serious too, like she didn't catch something that led to a bad outcome (maybe didn't transfer, I forget the details.) Well, my doula had used this very same CPM & defended her. I think she even replied on the discussion forum. I'm much more inclined to respect the opinion of my doula - considering she's a person I know, she personally did use the CPM in question, and she's also a Bradley teacher & tuned into the NCB community, so if complaints about this woman were common, she would know.

(& I DID meet with her & liked her, I just liked another CPM even better, so I chose her. But these 2 are back-up for one another sometimes, so it's nice knowing if my MW is at a birth, the back-up is still someone I know & like.)

Ha, not sure if that answers your Qs, but those are my thoughts on the issue.

[HappyMommy2]

I agree that spreading rumors is very unprofessional, and I would likely not work with the mw that passed around rumors.

[loveneverfails]

I generally assume that each rumor contains a shred of truth. For example, if I hear that a midwife in our area is "really a medwife" (hope that doesn't violate the UA), I would think she may be higher intervention and I would gravitate towards that, because I'm in the category of homebirther who wants active management with pit in 3rd stage. If I hear that someone is "too hands off," I might think that she does less monitoring normally, and defers to client preference.

I would tend to just store things in the back of my head, but unless I hear that a baby nearly died due to a midwife's negligence or incompetence, and can confirm that *with the mother* or at least someone who was actually there, it would not make me write that person off.

Conversely, I completely blow off positive comments that midwife X is really realy nice, because it does make me concerned that maybe the most impressive thing about that midwife is her personality and her skills are more of an unknown.

[peainthepod]

I would think less of a midwife who was gossiping and spreading rumors about other midwives. Much less. If it were a whole group of midwives gossiping amongst themselves, I'd be a little nervous about hiring them. In my small town, the midwives all know each other and are on good terms and use each other as backup if necessary. I find that to be a very good sign that they're all professionals who put their clients above petty rivalries and disputes.

Word of mouth recommendations and warnings are helpful, but I only trust them when I trust the source and the source has firsthand experience with the person they're recommending (or warning me about). Hearsay doesn't impress me at all.

[fruitfulmomma]

If I was interviewing a midwife and something like this came up, it would absolutely leave a bad taste in my mouth about the one who was doing the talking. If it was something very serious I would want to get the other mw side of the story before coming to any conclusions about her.

It really is a pet peeve of mine when people in the homebirth community turn against a specific mw and are spreading rumors/talking badly about them. I understand not wanting to hire a specific one for personal reasons, there are a couple of those I have myself, but I have nothing bad to say about them. Really, don't we get enough garbage from those who despise homebirth? We don't need to tear the community down with our own hands.

[honeybee]

I agree, in general. I have heard negative things about one of my own mws... but it was coming several hands removed, and basically originated with hospital workers who are biased against hb mws in general. So, I would be very doubtful of the truth of those kinds of rumors unless I'm talking to someone who used the mw personally. As for other mws talking down another mw... very unprofessional, even if what they are saying is 100% true.

I think at times if there is a large mw community, there may be a mw who takes greater risks in clients or is not as well trained and makes things difficult for the other midwives in general. And there may even be a genuine concern for clients there. But often there is also just general personality conflicts, differences of opinion, and politics like among any group of humans. There's no real way to know... but I would look badly on those gossiping.

However, there are some general observations made about some of our local midwives that are kind of true... these are more style/personality things and are not negative or "gossipy," or impugning the quality of care. Those kinds of things I might take into consideration in my decision based on what I personally prefer... kind of like what another pp said about whether you prefer a bit more closer monitoring or more hands off. But those tend to come from the hb community, not the mws talking about one another. They pretty much all say the each have their own "flavor" and bring something unique to the table.

[donutmolly]

I heard some negative things about my mw from a mama who had used her personally. Nothing particularly awful, but some concerns about her "bedside manner" which had really spoiled this mama's birth. Coming from a mama who had actually used this mw, I did pay attention, and felt like it was legitimate for her to tell me about her experience. However, I would have been completely unimpressed if it had been another mw bashing her, simply because it is so unprofessional.

I am also inclined to think there is a grain of truth in complaints about mws, mine does have limitations because her personality is not particularly warm. But, since I had that info from another mama, I was able to make an informed decision that I could deal with her more reserved style given her skill and experience and my own personality.

[MsBlack]

Thanks very much everyone--

To be clear, when I say 'rumors', I mean 'negative/impugning words' about a mw's character and/or practice. To share your own, and believe others' impressions is fine--and I am a BIG fan of people telling others about their own experiences with a mw...although I wish if they are going to, that they would be honest about the whole thing (including the parts where possibly they acted against a mw's advice or otherwise did not do all they could for a safe happy experience--I mean, a mw may be at times truly magical for you--but she's not REALLY a magician!). What I'm asking about here, though, is hearing bad things about a mw 'A' from mw 'B', or from mw 'Bs' clients (who originally heard it from mw B and may never have met mw A themselves). Those bad things may be about her practice, her character, her religion/morality--hey, from what I've heard at times, it all seems to be 'fair game' on the grapevine....sigh.

Anyway--anyone else have a comment on this?

[dannic]

IF I was in the market, I may not entirely write it off; I would still consider the MW being gossiped about, but I would ask her directly about the rumor. I have had rumors go round about my family and I only ever had one person ask me about it--allow me to tell my story or debunk the rumor!
It would also leave a bad impression of the MW spreading the rumors--like she was trying to level the competition, or get more business by spreading it.

Where I live, there is one semi retired lay MW who ocassionaally takes on a client. My MW is imported from 2 hrs away, lol. I already knew I wasn't comfortable with the local MW, and my MW was the only one I interviewed, so I really don't have any experience with this sort of thing, but this is how I would proceed.
Not ALL rumors have their basis in fact, and some can totally be taken out of context, as I've seen first hand. HTH.

[mbhf]

Hmm. I have been here twice. First, I was like 28 weeks and couldn't get my MW to return phone calls and some other odd issues so I went shopping for another. Both MWs I talked to seemed to know exactly what had happened and one even said that the other MWs in town often had to clean up the mess from my original MW. No one said anything specific, just let me know that it wasn't just me. I asked around a local natural mothering group and got several emails from other mothers telling me their experiences with the original MW. Funny, I had asked around earlier for MW recommendations and had gotten nothing but glowing recommendations of the original MW, generally with some comments about how she wasn't as "money focused" as the other MWs and was more hands off an natural than the others.

The second time, I was having some issues with my (current) MW. I saw another MW that I had heard great things about and I loved her, but I did not love what she had to say about my current MW. It just seemed unprofessional and it did kind of turn me off. It did convince me to talk to my current MW about my issues and we resolved them.

I think validating feelings and concerns is great, but adding fuel to the fire just seems gossipy and wrong.

[VBACMama2007]

What are the odds that this thread was started right when I'm going through this exact thing? I was told something extremely disturbing and scary about my midwife from another midwife, that was told to her by the woman (who is an aspiring midwife) who had this disturbing experience with my midwife (confused yet? hahaha). We wound up letting my midwife go because we were so floored. But we didn't tell her why... I didn't want to add to the drama between these midwives so that's why I didn't tell her. But now I'm feeling guilty and a little sad that I didn't give her a chance to explain herself... I don't know if I should call her or what. But anyway, it's great reading everyone's opinions on this subject.

[MsBlack]

VBACmama2007--

Speaking from experience on 'both sides' of this issue, I really wish you *would* talk to your original mw. Maybe you were right to change mws, but from what you say it sure looks to me like, well, that you actually don't know. It looks like you were unduly influenced by the rumor mill. And believe me, this is NOT a criticism, not at all. Aren't we all here on MDC in the first place because we need info AND opinions from those with similar concerns? I think that is a normal part of being a social species; and it's also true that pregnant women are pretty sensitive to such things. As a mom and mw, I can see why you felt prompted to switch mws.

To address your story more specifically, I would want to check out anything said by a witness to a birth--even one who was a doula or student mw. It could be that such a witness really does see things clearly, really does have enough knowledge to assess a situation in a "valid" way--according to solid knowledge of birth and standards of care. But maybe not. Maybe what she saw was a bit...or a lot...misinterpreted by her, due to her inexperience. Maybe that mw just does things differently than others do--practice does vary, safely. Maybe there was a backstory the witness didn't realize was in play--things occurred because of poor choices made by the family prior to the birth...there are a lot of maybes here! Of course, just maybe the mw in question was behaving in a dangerous way--that can happen, I don't mean to downplay it at all, only to broaden the scope of possibilities.

Also, I think it was...not the best decision for a 3rd party mw to share this with you. Now, I think it's good for mws to share their concerns--but we must be SO careful in how we do this. If nothing else, we have to be aware that our personal feelings can cloud our judgement...maybe the 2 mws just practice differently, maybe they don't like each other much, maybe their religions differ--oh goodness, again the maybes involved are complicated. I'm trying to think of how I might handle this. I think I would be very cautious, even if, to the best of my ability, I felt I'd been 'objective' and truly believed I knew enough of the truth of a situation to speak to it. Maybe she could have said only that while she can't verify it, she'd heard some things about your mw that were troubling (WITHOUT details!)--and she hoped you would ask some questions, clarify some things with your mw, talk to more of her former clients.

Having dealt with this kind of thing upon rare occasion, whatever else I might say, I add "Only YOU know what is right for you. I hope you'll consider this, but please trust yourself to know if you should do anything. And I could be full of baloney...I thought I should speak because I'm concerned, but I'm not directly involved so you have to take this with a grain of salt." And again, I would not be giving out details of someone else's birth.

If you are happy with your care now, then great! And you might consider letting your former mw know what happened--if only so she'll know why you switched. Maybe you'll want to ask her about what happened with that other birth you heard about--maybe not. But if she at least knows that you were influenced by hearing a story, then she has a chance to address it herself. Maybe she needs further training...or maybe she just needs to be more careful about who she allows to be at her births, or more careful to discuss confidentiality and ethics with any doula/student mw to be sure they know to share their concerns with her before going public. Maybe she even needs to raise ethics and legal concerns with the state board, because in a licensing state there are 'proper procedures' to follow by licensed mws.

In any event, this kind of talk is just what I'm talking about...it can be so influential, even when no one listening has any idea of the truth, or the possible knowledge-base or motives of those who spread a story. It can destroy a mw's practice...even a skilled and ethical mw, if the 'wrong people' start talking and talk with enough vigor. Not to mention that it can basically rob families of the birth care, and birth experience, that they might most prefer, for no good reason...and can lead to great divisiveness and stress in the entire hb community. Maybe you were 'saved' from poor care, maybe not--I just don't think you (or anyone) knows enough to be sure, from what you've said.

I really really REALLY appreciate your sharing with us! I hope you don't feel that I've jumped down your throat over it, by using the example of your story to illustrate some points. Please know that I appreciate you, and hope for you to feel glad you posted your story It's just that this is the kind of example I was considering, when first I posted. Such tensions are present in my own community, and this has been troubling me of late...which is why I started this thread, of course As for your situation...you do what feels right, and trust yourself! Sometimes even when we do things 'for the wrong reasons' (and again, in your situation I really don't know), it turns out that what we choose is actually the best thing anyway.

By the way--while that story is one example, I'm also aware of the other kinds of things that go around--like about a mw's religious practice or personal life, usually things that the talkers really don't know for certain. All of these things concern me.

thanks again, VBACmom--and all of you, for answering my query. Anyone else care to jump in? You are helping me with this thorny issue, for sure.

[MsBlack]

sigh...I know, I know, sometimes I just go on and on! Some of us just don't have the gift of conciseness

[thenaturefreak]

Originally Posted by loveneverfails

I would tend to just store things in the back of my head, but unless I hear that a baby nearly died due to a midwife's negligence or incompetence, and can confirm that *with the mother* or at least someone who was actually there, it would not make me write that person off.

The LLL and midwife community here can get interesting. There are so many people who commit so much of their life to it and have very strong beliefs one way or another. This makes it so there can be mis-communications and hurt feelings rather easily at times.

The midwife I am currently using (and used for my second birth) is having issues with this right now. It almost seems as though she is being ostracized from the up and coming midwives in the birth community. But I fully trust her knowledge and ability to aid in a healthy pregnancy and birth.

Unfortunately the rumors and hard feelings still have an effect, but I know there are always at least 2 sides to a story. I feel it is important to confirm an actual situation than go off of a rumors or someone's personal dislike of another person.

[MsBlack]

Originally Posted by thenaturefreak

The LLL and midwife community here can get interesting. There are so many people who commit so much of their life to it and have very strong beliefs one way or another. This makes it so there can be mis-communications and hurt feelings rather easily at times.

The midwife I am currently using (and used for my second birth) is having issues with this right now. It almost seems as though she is being ostracized from the up and coming midwives in the birth community. But I fully trust her knowledge and ability to aid in a healthy pregnancy and birth.

Unfortunately the rumors and hard feelings still have an effect, but I know there are always at least 2 sides to a story. I feel it is important to confirm an actual situation than go off of a rumors or someone's personal dislike of another person.

I coulda wrote that post... Thanks for sharing.

Actually, I could quote each of you, and agree with all or part of what you said.

One thing that sticks in my mind is the pp who mentioned believing that there is usually some 'kernel of truth' in gossip. I definitely agree, and yet discerning what the 'true kernel' is, can be hard. Case in point: recently I was chatting w/a mw-friend with whom I've been discussing the 'gossip wars' currently ongoing in our community (so sad!). She mentioned that she had just returned from a visit to a mw-group elsewhere in the state, and heard some 'juicy gossip' from those women--they talked about a 'bad birth' that they'd heard about, taking place just across state lines and apparently involving a whole passle of mws and apprentices from both states (which in itself sounds like a stretch). When my friend asked them who the mws were, they named 3 names--which happen to be the 3 mws LEAST likely to work together, *ever*. Since one of those names was my own, I could definitely state that I knew nothing of it. I mean, it would have been hilarious if not for being so hurtful....

Perhaps the kernel of truth is that there was a complicated birth attended by a group of mws and apprentices. Perhaps it was 'poorly managed'...but the end of the story was a transfer for csec...which was perhaps simply a wise decision. See what I mean?

Also, unfortunately this is an area where there is rather more competition and strife than friendliness. Anyway, since I know from experience that mws and families are perfectly capable of spreading rumors based on issues of competition and other personal choices, I have learned to doubt that anyone can clearly see the kernel of truth in a story. But too many don't seem to realize this.

[honeybee]

Another factor not mentioned here yet is HIPPA restrictions. An ethical midwife following HIPPA standards would not be able to talk about a questionable birth in detail because to do so would violate client confidentiality. So, they are kind of stuck not being able to defend themselves in detail.

It does seem that often in the mw community, especially if there isn't regulation, HIPPA is kind of ignored, thus the gossiping about specific birth details by other midwives.

[MidwifeErika]

I would not think much of a midwife who is telling clients bad things about another midwife. I was taught that sort of thing was and is completely unethical. I hate when it happens because I don't think any of us want to live and work in that hostile sort of environment. I know I don't! I love to be supportive of other midwives and to be able to say nice things about them and to have them to help me at births or back me up or whatever. So far, I have found this little corner of the world to be pretty friendly, so Ms Black, if you need a place to crash with friendly midwifery folk, come up my way

I think the thing for families to remember is that usually as midwives, we only have tiny glimpses into other's practices. I might hear of something happening in another midwife's practice, but not the details of the informed consent, parental wishes, the work that was being done, what everyone was thinking and seeing, etc. That is, unless I go to peer review where the midwife is sharing these details and then if I was putting out gossip based on peer review, I could lose my CPM and I would lose all respect for myself.

Sometimes the rumors really are not true AT ALL and yet they get spread and spread and spread. I can think of two examples. One was a birth I heard about from a friend who is a nurse and had horrible things to say about the way thing went at a birth and who was involved and yet I ended up in the peer review with the midwives who were at that birth and the details were sooooo different and the midwives really had not done anything wrong at all.

The other was a former co-worker of my husband's who had homebirths and we heard from a mutual friend about their birth and how there was a horrible PPH and the midwife had done nothing but prayed over them and left the woman to die. This horrified me, but I felt I didn't have enough details so my husband went to the family and asked them about their birth and who their midwife was and got a completely different story. There had been a PPH, the midwife used pitocin, got it under control, gave the woman fluids and stayed until she was feeling better. Hmmmm..... not at all the same story we heard. And the midwife they used was a lovely woman who would have never just left the woman without proper care.

I guess what I am trying to say is that people love to gossip. There may be truth to it or not at all. And I think it is really unethical for midwives to continue the gossip chain by sharing rumors with clients or potential clients. I think we should all be trying to practice in the way we WANT our profession to be. And those midwives who are spreading rumors to clients should maybe make their next batch of CEUs be in ethics.

[nikirj]

Originally Posted by MidwifeErika

I guess what I am trying to say is that people love to gossip. There may be truth to it or not at all. And I think it is really unethical for midwives to continue the gossip chain by sharing rumors with clients or potential clients.

that

When you're talking with clients it's not just about the gossip, either, it's about how as a MW your word has a certain greater-than-most power in these situations, and it's not OK to use that to spread rumor. You repeating it would be like substantiation in most peoples' eyes, whether you knew what had gone on or not.

[MsBlack]

Originally Posted by nikirj

that

When you're talking with clients it's not just about the gossip, either, it's about how as a MW your word has a certain greater-than-most power in these situations, and it's not OK to use that to spread rumor. You repeating it would be like substantiation in most peoples' eyes, whether you knew what had gone on or not.

THANK YOU FOR SAYING THIS!!!! I am consistently shocked at how much people trust mws to be Saints (or if not, then we're Demons)--and trust everything they say, take it totally at face value (or, if one has been judged as a Demon, then NOTHING she says will be believed, even if she can prove the truth of her words but the Saintly one cannot). And shocked that some mws, being well aware of that power they hold, will totally use it to their own advantage against other mws. Because they are so ultimately believed by their listeners and know it, they can even come off sounding 'concerned' or 'just stating the facts', thus hiding the ugly truth of their real motivations.

Mind you, I tend to think that most mws are just thoughtless about talking, it's a more innocent thing that has not been deeply enough considered. So, I'm not saying that every mw who ever passed around some gossip was intending to be cut-throat, not at all. But some are cut-throat, and that is just a fact--mws are merely human, the variation in our natures is exactly the same as all other people. We can be just as great, just as average, just as loving or resentful, giving or competetive or whatever, as all other people.

Erika, bless you for the invitation ! I have heard of these mythological places where mws get along just great... And right now, the situation here is so terrible that I do sometimes try to imagine WHO might let me crash on their couch in a friendlier area, while I put together a new practice and community. Someone who believes the 'more mws, the better for us all and the better for homebirth here' instead of the the competitive, gossipy thing we have going on here.