Mothering › Forums › Health › Vaccinations › Vax info or atleast selective vax resources?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Vax info or atleast selective vax resources?

post #1 of 45
Thread Starter 
I know this isn't a pro-vax forum, but I am wanting to get some information on both sides to help make my decision on which vax I want if I selective vax, or I may not vax at all. I am having a hard time gathering resources on the more "pro" side.... I hope this doesn't go against the forum rules as I saw the disclaimer, but I really am not on either side, I just want some resources (like medical articles, MD info, personal resources, books, etc)

Thank you
post #2 of 45
Good for you! It's always best to use a variety of sources and look at all sides of the issues. Here are some of the sites I recommend to my patients:

Healthy Children

http://www.healthychildren.org/engli...s/default.aspx

Institute for Vaccine Safety

http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/

Vaccine Education Center

http://www.chop.edu/service/vaccine-...nter/home.html
post #3 of 45
This is the perfect place to find information from all sides of the issue! I recommend you start with:

Our Resources sticky , with links to Mothering resources, book recommendations, etc.

and

Our Archives... see what questions your fellow members have had and all of the great responses, research, etc. we've compiled.
post #4 of 45
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgg View Post
Good for you! It's always best to use a variety of sources and look at all sides of the issues. Here are some of the sites I recommend to my patients:

Healthy Children

http://www.healthychildren.org/engli...s/default.aspx

Institute for Vaccine Safety

http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/

Vaccine Education Center

http://www.chop.edu/service/vaccine-...nter/home.html
Thanks. The vaccine safety institute, I couldnt find specific info for the dtap and infants, just something for adolescents. Do you have resources for dtap/infants?

And chop.edu -- My pediatrician gave me that, and I found out here that it is a controversial website, why?
post #5 of 45
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mosaic View Post
This is the perfect place to find information from all sides of the issue! I recommend you start with:

Our Resources sticky , with links to Mothering resources, book recommendations, etc.

and

Our Archives... see what questions your fellow members have had and all of the great responses, research, etc. we've compiled.
Yes I've been skimming the archives, I just cannot figure out if there ARE any pro-vax threads, I thought they might get removed. I was hoping to find info both ways, just to educate myself atleast. Or find people to talk to who are selective. Is it just all scattered or is there a specific area ? I'll keep skimming.
post #6 of 45
There is a selective vax forum if you want to talk to people that are doing that.
post #7 of 45
Mothering takes neither a pro-vax nor anti-vax stand, so you'll find it all here! If you'd like, I can move this thread to the Selective & Delayed subforum here.
post #8 of 45
The ladies at http://www.justthevax.blogspot.com have a ton of resources as well and will answer any questions you may have.
post #9 of 45
What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About Childhood Vaccinations is a pretty good book, by a doctor (Stephanie Cave). She lays out the diseases, the history of the vaccines, the pros and cons. I liked it and it helped me a lot when figuring out which to delay/select.
post #10 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dixielane View Post
And chop.edu -- My pediatrician gave me that, and I found out here that it is a controversial website, why?
The website is part of The Childrens Hospital of Philadelphia (CHOP). CHOP is one of the most highly regarded Childrens Hospitals in the country (usually takes turns at the top of the US News & World Report list every year, with Childrens Hospital Boston).

It is considered controversial by many who oppose immunization, because the director of Pediatric Infectious Disease is Dr. Paul Offit. And while he is a world class infectious disease expert, and an immunization expert, he was also the patent holder for the RotaTeq vaccine. When he sold it, he made millions of dollars, as did CHOP. This is seen as a conflict of interest.

That being said, in the medical and academic profession, he is considered the foremost expert, and he is about as highly regarded as they come. So, while I respect the distrust a lot of people have for him, this site is still considered and excellent source for more mainstream, contemporary pediatric immunization information.
post #11 of 45
Once I actually sat down to read Offit's books, I realized he provides you with a wealth of information that you can look up and verify on your own, and he makes that really easy by providing study names, dates, authors, journals, etc. I look forward to reading his new book. He has always been open about his involvement in the development of the rotavirus vaccine, and even put out a statement with the amount he made from it (antivax places were making out that he made 10x what he actually did). he endures threats to his family and the like and continues what he feels is important work. I went from direspecting him (for, what it seems now, no reason) to really appreciating his work. And he doesn't just write about the good side to vaccines...see his book on the cutter incident.

For me, the best arguments for vaccines come from using sources like pubmed and google scholar and simply reading the source information. You want to know about measles? check out some of the stuff that is out there on it. also there are some great provax blogs that really break down new studies and help you get a better grasp of the information.

if you check out the justthevax link (someone posted above) you can see some of these other blogs on the right hand side. go to them and search about the vaccine or disease you wonder about and there is a wealth of information.

for example, wondering about the risks of MMR vs measles infection?

http://photoninthedarkness.com/?p=187

I like the other sites mentioned and they relaly helped me know where to start looking when it came to myths. i never knew that the measles portion of the mmr actually has never caused a measles infection through shedding. the institute for vaccine safety site said that and then i went and looked it up and realized it was true.
post #12 of 45
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by carriebft View Post
Once I actually sat down to read Offit's books, I realized he provides you with a wealth of information that you can look up and verify on your own, and he makes that really easy by providing study names, dates, authors, journals, etc. I look forward to reading his new book. He has always been open about his involvement in the development of the rotavirus vaccine, and even put out a statement with the amount he made from it (antivax places were making out that he made 10x what he actually did). he endures threats to his family and the like and continues what he feels is important work. I went from direspecting him (for, what it seems now, no reason) to really appreciating his work. And he doesn't just write about the good side to vaccines...see his book on the cutter incident.

For me, the best arguments for vaccines come from using sources like pubmed and google scholar and simply reading the source information. You want to know about measles? check out some of the stuff that is out there on it. also there are some great provax blogs that really break down new studies and help you get a better grasp of the information.

if you check out the justthevax link (someone posted above) you can see some of these other blogs on the right hand side. go to them and search about the vaccine or disease you wonder about and there is a wealth of information.

for example, wondering about the risks of MMR vs measles infection?

http://photoninthedarkness.com/?p=187

I like the other sites mentioned and they relaly helped me know where to start looking when it came to myths. i never knew that the measles portion of the mmr actually has never caused a measles infection through shedding. the institute for vaccine safety site said that and then i went and looked it up and realized it was true.
Thats what boggles my mind. Who do we listen to? It seems every source, has another source disproving them. Like I've heard this Offit guy is just in it for $ and someone on here told me he made some famous statement of saying a baby could handle 100,000 vaccines at once -- things like that instantly turn me off, but obviously to some people he IS reputable.. how do I verify with other reputable sources that HIS information is up to date and correct? How do you verify that with anyone! lol This website you gave for vaccine safety, what would you cross reference that with for example?
post #13 of 45
Like I said on Offit-- he gives you the studies he is talking about and most you can just look up and read for yourself (and if you don't have access to the study, let me know and I know a few people who can get access)

on the "100,000" vaccine thing, he was talking about how many antigens a baby comes into contact with every day:



Quote:
"Children have an enormous capacity to respond safely to challenges to the immune system from vaccines," says Dr. Offit. "A baby's body is bombarded with immunologic challenges - from bacteria in food to the dust they breathe. Compared to what they typically encounter and manage during the day, vaccines are literally a drop in the ocean."
he he is talking about the study that came up with that number, where is is looking at how many antigens a person can take in a day:

Quote:
Offit set out to determine two factors: how many B cells, which make antibodies, a person has in a milliliter of blood and how many different epitopes, the part of a bacterium or virus that is recognized by the immune system, there are in a vaccine. Then, he came up with a rough estimate: a person could handle 100,000 vaccines — or up to 10,000 vaccines at once. Currently the most vaccines children receive at any one time is five.

He also published his findings in Pediatrics. Soon, the number was attached to Offit like a scarlet letter. “The 100,000 number makes me sound like a madman. Because that’s the image: 100,000 shots sticking out of you. It’s an awful image,” Offit says. “Many people — including people who are on my side — have criticized me for that. But I was naive. In that article, I was being asked the question and that is the answer to the question.”


the findings of that study may turn you off...but i think it is still an important study to read i think. the body can handle all these antigens; and i think this demonstrates why many combination vaccines have equal or less reactions than their component vaccines given in singles.



and with the institute for vaccine safety...when i read stuff on there, i can go on pubmed, google scholar or the like and look it up myself. i read that the measles portion has not and probably can not shed and cause infection. i also read that it cannot cause SSPE while natural measles infection CAN and does cause SSPE. all could be varified with studies I found using pubmed and google scholar.


reading the source material is important...you can see that plainly with the 100,000 vaccine quote. i can pulll up the pediatrics study he did that that came from, looking at how many antigens our immune system can handle. when you read the source material, it is definitely telling us a lot more and in a lot different way than people use that line for, kwim?
post #14 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by carriebft View Post
Currently the most vaccines children receive at any one time is five.
They want my 2 month old infant to get 8
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/recs/sch...chedule-pr.pdf
hep B,rotovirus,hib,pcv,polio,diptheria,tetnus and pertussis.
post #15 of 45
small correction- that was wired magazines mistake, not mine. i should have put the source link. i think the most our doc will do is 7 (i also think 7 is the AAP recommendation for one sitting?)

the author may also be counting "shots" and not the individual pieces.
post #16 of 45
Thread Starter 
Thank you carrie!
post #17 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by carriebft View Post

for example, wondering about the risks of MMR vs measles infection?

http://photoninthedarkness.com/?p=187

.
I don't know how reliable he is. He said:

Quote:
Measles has a case-fatality rate of 2 per thousand,

Which, look at figure 3 here:
http://ajph.aphapublications.org/cgi.../Suppl_2/1.pdf

In the UK, they said:

Quote:
One of the major sources of doubt about the need for immunization stems from the belief among many parents and doctors that measles is a mild disease in which serious complications are rare and almost
never fatal in normal children. Deaths have indeed declined
rapidly in recent years to about 2 per 10,000 notifications
,
post #18 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamakay View Post
I don't know how reliable he is. He said:

Quote:
Measles has a case-fatality rate of 2 per thousand,
Which, look at figure 3 here:
http://ajph.aphapublications.org/cgi.../Suppl_2/1.pdf
You have to sum over the data in the bottom panel to obtain the comparable figure--the numerators in the CFR add in every bin to obtain the total. Doing this by eye, I get right about 200 in the 0-13 yr bins. Basically, this figure reports a CFR no lower than 0.002 in the very limited geographical areas reported.

In any event, as to "reliability," the source for the 2-per-thousand remark was clearly indicated--it's the CDC Pink Book.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mamakay View Post
In the UK, they said:
Quote:
One of the major sources of doubt about the need for immunization stems from the belief among many parents and doctors that measles is a mild disease in which serious complications are rare and almost
never fatal in normal children. Deaths have indeed declined
rapidly in recent years to about 2 per 10,000 notifications,
Do you have a source, for some context here?
post #19 of 45
Sorry...I forgot the link to the UK study:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...02558-0019.pdf

Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto
You have to integrate over the curve in the bottom panel to obtain the comparable figure--the numerators in the CFR sum in every bin to obtain the total. Doing this by eye, I get right about 200 in the 0-13 yr bins. Basically, this figure reports a CFR no lower than 0.002 in the very limited geographical areas reported.
What do you mean "limited geographical areas being reported"?
They dug through the entire US's death certificate data to find the national measles deaths.

From ages 2-13, it hangs out at around 10 deaths per 100,000 cases according to the CFR part at the bottom.

ETA:
Quote:
In any event, as to "reliability," the source for the 2-per-thousand remark was clearly indicated--it's the CDC Pink Book
The Pink Book gives a lot of figures for the measles CFR.

It also says:


http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pin...loads/meas.pdf
Quote:
Before 1963, approximately 500,000 cases and 500 deaths were reported annually, with epidemic cycles every 2–3 years. However, the actual number of cases was estimated at 3–4 million annually.
post #20 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamakay View Post
What do you mean "limited geographical areas being reported"?
Oh, dear, I did misread Figure 2 and the path to Figure 3 badly, sorry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mamakay View Post
They dug through the entire US's death certificate data to find the national measles deaths.
I'm not finding this in the article; is it in reference 5?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Vaccinations
Mothering › Forums › Health › Vaccinations › Vax info or atleast selective vax resources?