How old is too old for skin-to-skin? - Page 6

[meemee]

Originally Posted by loraxc

Hmm. But there is a world of difference between "Mrs. B touched me on the shoulder in math class and I didn't like that" and "Mrs. B touched me under my underwear."

Originally Posted by MusicianDad

Not as much of a difference as one might think at first glance. Both are unwanted physical contact. Both are wrong. The only differences are the level of discomfort, the level of psychological damage, and the fact that one is criminal behaviour.

The whole body belongs to the person. Whether you touch someone on the shoulder, or on the genitals, unwanted physical contact is unwanted physical contact. DD knows that no one has a right to touch her genitals without her permission. She also knows that no one has a right to touch her head/shoulder/elbow/any other non-sexual body part without her permission.
.

plus i wanted to add that many of the pedo touches start with a mrs B touched me on the shoulder... touch type of thing before it went further.

and yeah ITA with MD. that's the same i have done with dd. its not so much the touch as much as the intent. you know the 'accidental' touch which you know was not accidental. whether to your boobs or just another part of your body.

[Ceinwen]

Originally Posted by AbbieB

I just want to say that my kids are 2 and 6 and we still have skin to skin contact on a daily basis.

Do I strip off my shirt and cuddle them between my breasts like a newborn? No. But I have no problem sleeping naked next to my naked child in the family bed or snuggling and nursing while still naked after a bath or shower.

Skin to skin contact feels good. It's a sensual thing, not a sexual thing.

Similar. If anyone was uncomfortable, it would stop.

I prefer to have clothes on, both my dds (ages almost eight and almost three) run rampantly naked at home. I can convince them to keep underwear on most of the time (mostly to protect their little bottoms).

[goodygumdrops]

Originally Posted by Chamomile Girl

THANK you! Same here. I don't know why remembering one's dad naked would even be an issue. In fact I find some of the condemnation on this thread rather perplexing. Naked should not be sexualizing by default, and I think that is why some folks have a problem with sharing nakedness with children.

Naked can just be naked, and skin to skin contact with children is a loving thing.

I am often naked in front of my 3.5 year old son. He's a total nudist...strips all the time. I have to constantly ask him to put his cloths on. Very occasionally, he shows interest in my breasts...we weaned when he was about 27 months or so. I don't really freak out about it, either. I figure that he views my breasts as a very comforting and so he is somewhat interested in them. But other than that...I don't see the big deal with people being naked in front of their kids, if both parties are fine with it. I certainly don't see a problem with a single mom and her daughter sharing a bed with nudity... Not a big deal to me at all...

[loraxc]

I can't even express how misguided I think it is to believe that children always know what is abuse and what is not unless something is "wrong" with their intuition and they have been somehow raised wrong.

This verges on a victim-blaming mentality.

but let me tell you we all KNOW.

This is simply incorrect. It is offensive to me that you think can speak for all victims of abuse. Imagine how it would feel to read this as an abuse victim who did not "know" at the time.

Some children are too young to know. Some children are developmentally delayed. Some children have been looking for attention and are pleased to get it. These are just a very few reasons why a child might not fully realize what is happening is abuse. I do not believe in this magical innocent perfect child intuition. Believing this could give a very risky false sense of security.

[loraxc]

DD knows that no one has a right to touch her genitals without her permission. She also knows that no one has a right to touch her head/shoulder/elbow/any other non-sexual body part without her permission.

So...here we are talking about how children are hungry for touch, and you are telling me that your child has been taught that anyone who touches her must ask for permission first? Am I understanding you correctly? Frankly I think there is a huge difference here. As far as I am concerned, adults who interact with my children have an implicit right to touch their arm, elbow, head, etc unless my child specifically says "Please don't touch me." She is 6 and she goes to school and classes (I am not one to never let my child out of my sight--most parents cannot do this) and it would be bizarre and impractical to teach her that no one can ever touch her without asking first. I can't imagine a child doing this anyway. I know there are schools where no one is ever supposed to hug anyone, etc but I find this bizarre and am very glad my kid does not go to one.

But these adults certainly do not have an implicit right to touch her genitals unless she says no. These are two different kinds of touch. I find this argument very disingenuous and impractical.

[GoBecGo]

loraxc, with respect, most abusers rely on a mixture of guilt and shame and fear in their victims to ensure they maintain silence on it. In general victims do know what is happening is wrong, just not the specific magnitude of the wrongness or who is to blame (usually they blame themselves), otherwise most of us would have told someone right away. If it's not wrong, then why would my abuser tell me to keep it a secret? Why would my dad lose his job if i told? Why would my mother leave me at the police station forever if it wasn't wrong? If it was so ok, why would just *talking* to anyone about it cause my world to end? I knew. He made me feel it was MY wrong, but still, i knew it was wrong.

And i know no-one is allowed to touch me without my permission, but i don't have to go around telling people i consent to a hug or pat on the arm, i simply verbally or physically withdraw consent if it happens when i don't want it. To pretend children would not do the same is strange. My DD is generally open to hugs. Yet if she doesn't want one she simply says "no thanks, i don't want to hug".

[tallulahma]

Originally Posted by loraxc

Some children are too young to know. Some children are developmentally delayed. Some children have been looking for attention and are pleased to get it. These are just a very few reasons why a child might not fully realize what is happening is abuse. I do not believe in this magical innocent perfect child intuition. Believing this could give a very risky false sense of security.

i guess I am failing to understand how believing and following a childs intuition combined with age and situation appropriate guidance is blaming the victim but teaching them "no one is allowed to touch your privates" is not?

if you tell them no one is allowed- and they allow it? do they then feel shame? are they then less likely to tell you because they are scared you will be mad for them "allowing" it? for not saying no out of fear?

what if their abuser tells them "dont tell your mom, she will be mad" and the one thing you have told them is "never let ANYONE touch you there"

i think that is dangerous.

[GoBecGo]

I think having any expectations that a child can do ANYTHING much to protect themselves against an abuser is dangerous. This is likely to be a person the parents know well and have allowed suitable access to their child for abuse to occur. Abusers groom parents first. If this person is able to fool you enough that they had access to your child, it's not likely that child is going to be capable of doing a better job than you at fighting their approaches off. To assume so is like leaving a kid your own kids age to babysit him/her. You wouldn't leave a 4yo in charge of your 4yo's safety, right?

All you can hope for is that a) you have been careful enough in establishing who you allow access to your kids and b) you have an open enough dialogue with your kids that IF they suffer the advances someone who got under your radar they are able to report fully and early to you.

I haven't really told DD not to let anyone touch her genitals. I've told her it's WEIRD if anyone wants to and she should tell me.

Really, i cannot remember how any of this relates to the age children become too old for skin-to-skin contact. Unless we count abuse. I would say ANY age is wrong for skin-to-skin as part of sexual abuse!

[tallulahma]

Originally Posted by GoBecGo

All you can hope for is that a) you have been careful enough in establishing who you allow access to your kids and b) you have an open enough dialogue with your kids that IF they suffer the advances someone who got under your radar they are able to report fully and early to you.

you worded this so well.

i was JUST thinking how incredibly off topic this all is...

[verde]

...back on topic. I just read through this whole thread. To answer the OP's question.

We cosleep with our soon-to-be 5y/o DD. Both DH and DD sleeps naked because it's their personal preference. DH generally keeps a sheet around his middle for his own comfort. I wear a nightie when I get cold but if it's a warm night I'm naked. DD asks us for a "daily cuddle" (the three of us together) every morning and it's a really sweet moment for us. And yes, it's skin to skin.

We will follow DD's lead for her own comfort level re: nudity and cosleeping. Right now she likes both and that's fine. When she wants to change that situation, that'll be fine too.

I totally agree that with all the comments that nudity does not equal sex and that it's a matter of following people's comfort levels.

[loraxc]

I would suggest that every parent read up on the current thinking on how to prevent child sexual abuse. While there is certainly the acknowledgement that children should trust "bad feelings" about a person, there is a lot more to it than that. It is very widely acknowledged that children should be taught that certain areas are private.

http://www.stopitnow.com/dont_wait_everyday_prevention

http://www.rainn.org/get-information...sexual-assault

"# Teach children that some parts of their body are private.

* Let children know that other people should not be touching or looking at their private parts unless they need to touch them to provide care. If someone does need to touch them in those private areas, a parent or trusted caregiver should be there, too.
* Tell children that if someone tries to touch those private areas or wants to look at them, OR if someone tries to show the child their own private parts, they should tell a trusted adult as soon as possible.

FTR, I don't think I have worded it as "Don't let anyone touch you there" but as "That part of your body is private and no one should touch you there unless it is a doctor giving you an exam and I am there. If they do, tell me right away."

Also, if you object to children being taught that some areas are private and that there is a different standard for those areas than the rest of your body, and your child attends school, you may want to look at their curriculum to see if there is a component about preventing abuse. This is what they will be taught.

I would also urge anyone who sleeps naked with a child over 3-4 or so to consider that CPS might find this problematic. I'm not saying you're abusing them! I'm not saying I'd report you! But I'm pretty sure some people might.

[GoBecGo]

I looked at the first site and think that there is a difference between people having a RIGHT to privacy surrounding nudity and people having that "right" enforced upon them. My DD has a right to eat, she needn't eat if she isn't hungry. She has a right to sleep alone, she needn't if she doesn't want to. She has a RIGHT to be clothed, but she needn't be if she doesn't want to unless there is some compelling reason, like we are going out or someone is coming to visit (even then she sometimes gets randomly naked!). No-one here is enforcing skin-to-skin time, so how is this relevant to this discussion?

[tallulahma]

Originally Posted by loraxc

I would suggest that every parent read up on the current thinking on how to prevent child sexual abuse. While there is certainly the acknowledgement that children should trust "bad feelings" about a person, there is a lot more to it than that. It is very widely acknowledged that children should be taught that certain areas are private.

http://www.stopitnow.com/dont_wait_everyday_prevention

http://www.rainn.org/get-information...sexual-assault

"# Teach children that some parts of their body are private.

* Let children know that other people should not be touching or looking at their private parts unless they need to touch them to provide care. If someone does need to touch them in those private areas, a parent or trusted caregiver should be there, too.
* Tell children that if someone tries to touch those private areas or wants to look at them, OR if someone tries to show the child their own private parts, they should tell a trusted adult as soon as possible.

i those are great guidelines that should be followed when developmentally and situationally appropriate- which is different for every child.

i am choosing not to focus on that aspect with my children until they are going to be away from me. Im focusing more on the whole body ownership- the older they get the easier I think it would be to get this message across without CONFUSING them as to WHY it needs to be private.

the rainn site also states

All children should be told that it’s okay to say “no” to touches that make them uncomfortable or if someone is touching them in ways that make them uncomfortable and that they should tell a trusted adult as soon as possible.
This can lead to some slightly embarrassing situations, such as a child who then says they don’t want give a relative a hug or kiss! Work with your child to find ways to greet people that don’t involve uncomfortable kinds of touch.
Talking openly about sexuality and sexual abuse also teaches children that these things don’t need to be “secret.” Abusers will sometimes tell a child that the abuse is a secret. Let your children know that if someone is touching them or talking to them in ways that make them uncomfortable that it shouldn’t stay a secret.
Make sure to tell your child that that they will not get into trouble if they tell you this kind of secret.

which is the aspect some of us have voiced focusing more on....

i think this info should be given at age appropriate times...


skin to skin snuggles at ages 3-4 should NOT red flag CPS! that seems so absurd to me. it really does. Its a sad world we are in. where a topic of love and snuggles with your child turns to "you may be reported to CPS" this quickly.


i can also promise you that I KNOW people who were taught all the things listed on these websites and went on to be abused- because physical abuse is also emotional... and no guideline or speech about your privates is going to protect a child from a manipulative person intent on harming them in a way that is seductive and slow going.

these are things to teach your kids so that they are confident and secure enough to SPEAK OUT about the abuse... in which case there are many ways to that end, i believe.

i think the only reason a naked PARENT cuddling with a small child would be wrong is if a child is uncomfortable and either
a. isnt empowered to ask the parent to stop- which IS abuse.
b. a child is empowered enough to ask the parent to stop and the parent DOESNT LISTEN- which IS ALSO clear abuse.

[loraxc]

I certainly absolutely 100% never, ever make my child touch or be touched by anyone she does not want to. I have bad memories of being made to hug Uncle Whoever as a child and I very explicitly respect their rights here. Both my children know the proper names of genitalia, etc. We have had all those conversations, too.

kin to skin snuggles at ages 3-4 should NOT red flag CPS!

What I actually said is that sleeping naked with a child OVER 3-4 might cause SOME people to CALL CPS. I don't actually know what CPS would do with that info, but they are required to investigate. It's my understanding that having CPS called on you is not fun.

Also, I don't follow this:

"i think the only reason a naked PARENT cuddling with a small child would be wrong is if a child is uncomfortable and either
a. isnt empowered to ask the parent to stop- which IS abuse."

Huh? So not sufficiently (emotionally?) empowering a child is abuse?

[MusicianDad]

Originally Posted by loraxc

So...here we are talking about how children are hungry for touch, and you are telling me that your child has been taught that anyone who touches her must ask for permission first? Am I understanding you correctly? Frankly I think there is a huge difference here. As far as I am concerned, adults who interact with my children have an implicit right to touch their arm, elbow, head, etc unless my child specifically says "Please don't touch me." She is 6 and she goes to school and classes (I am not one to never let my child out of my sight--most parents cannot do this) and it would be bizarre and impractical to teach her that no one can ever touch her without asking first. I can't imagine a child doing this anyway. I know there are schools where no one is ever supposed to hug anyone, etc but I find this bizarre and am very glad my kid does not go to one.

But these adults certainly do not have an implicit right to touch her genitals unless she says no. These are two different kinds of touch. I find this argument very disingenuous and impractical.

No one has the implicit right to touch my daughter. Ever. Just as she always has a right to say "stop" or pull away or extricate herself from the situation. The only exception to this is if they need to act in a way to save her life and she is not conscious or capable of consenting.

Saying that children feel a sense of wrongness when they experience abuse is not blaming the victim. Not even close. It is stating a fact. It is a fact I know all too well. As a PP said, the abuser knows very well how to exploit this and use it to his or her advantage. "It feels wrong, because it is and it's all your fault. If you tell anyone they will blame you and you'll be the one getting in trouble!" There are factors that increase the probability that a child who is experiencing abuse will say something, open dialog about sex and their body, and knowing that no-one has the implicit right to touch them. True that it can only do so much, but it's a hell of a lot better than a child being told they can say "no" but not having that acknowledged by the most trusted adults in their life.

[MusicianDad]

Originally Posted by loraxc

Also, I don't follow this:

"i think the only reason a naked PARENT cuddling with a small child would be wrong is if a child is uncomfortable and either
a. isnt empowered to ask the parent to stop- which IS abuse."

Huh? So not sufficiently (emotionally?) empowering a child is abuse?

I believe the PP means the parents never discussed the fact that their child could say no in order to continue cuddling with a child who is uncomfortable with the naked aspect of it is abuse.

Another thing I have heard from abuse survivors. They were allowed to say "no" to other adults, but were taught that they weren't allowed to say "no" to one or both of their parents.

[tallulahma]

No, not sufficiently empowering a child is unfortunate... Not emotionally empowering a child and them crossing the boundaries of the child with zero concern or regard to their state of comfort IS, at the very least, inappropriate and could most definitely be considered abusive.

For example- a child asks to wear pajamas repeatedly and the parent says,"no. Naked is better! It's nice! Come on!"
that I could see bein creepy/innapropriate.

[loraxc]

No one has the implicit right to touch my daughter. Ever.

Just trying to understand here--so, if a ballet teacher touches your DD in ballet class without explicitly asking first, you consider this a violation?

Your DD has been taught to do what in this situation?

If what you are trying to say is that your daughter has the right to revoke anyone's permission to touch her, then of course I agree. If you believe no other adult, in a professional capacity, should ever touch your child without first asking consent, then that's pretty weird to me.

I feel like I am being painted as the overcautious one in this discussion, but it is this attitude that strikes me as overkill.

[MusicianDad]

There is more than one way to give permission. She also has the ability to move out of the way of someones touch, tell them to stop, etc.

I don't think it's over kill to tell my daughter that no one has the right to touch her. Being able to touch other people is never a right. I don't have the right to touch DH and I'm married to him. Heck I don't even consider myself has having a right to touch DS. If I go to pick him up and he says "no", I don't do it.

Touch is not a right and should never be considered one.

Or maybe it would make far more sense if I say touching is a privilege.

We may have a different idea of what a right it though. The definition I have is an entitlement against other people. No one should feel they are entitled to touch other people.

FTR DD generally doesn't take classes if she knows someone would randomly come up to her and touch her because she just doesn't like it when that happens, even though she is very much a physical person.

[lakeruby]

Originally Posted by Chamomile Girl

I don't know why remembering one's dad naked would even be an issue. In fact I find some of the condemnation on this thread rather perplexing. Naked should not be sexualizing by default, and I think that is why some folks have a problem with sharing nakedness with children.

I agree with this, although I don't have any experience with it, as my family was not a naked family while I was growing up, and I don't have kids yet. But I feel that plenty of sex happens when people are wearing clothes, and I spend plenty of time naked without having sex, so I don't think the two are necessarily related. I hope to have confident children one day who are not unneccesarily embarrassed about their bodies.