Do you work in a male or female environment? - Page 2

[That Is Nice]

Originally Posted by Sorin

I always feel bad for you guys (or should I say, ladies?) I'm in academia as well, but I'm in English, so my department is about 50/50 men and women. However, as with just about all disciplines, more men are full professors, while the women are either assistant profs or recently tenured. Got to love those guys with the SAHM wives who relieve them of the burden of running a household so that they can write their fifth book!

Yes! I too am in academia. And none of the men I work with are the primary caregiver to a young child like I am. It makes such a difference!

Originally Posted by physmom

Yes, how'd you guess? It's HARD in academia in the sciences. Don't get my wrong, my advisor has been great (way better than I could ever hope for) but it's more than just that. It's the fact that I can't work as many hours as a guy with a SAHM for a wife. I also can't socialize as much at conferences because I don't drink (still nursing) and have never smoked. I'm also limited to how many conferences I can go to in the first place and where they are at. It's not an easy road to go down but I'm sure thankful for the few females that have gone before me that have at least made it easier than it was.

Yes, yes, and yes! I think you get my career and my struggles. We have meetings and travel that occur when I don't have daycare, and the travel to conferences basically tears my life apart. It's crazy having to travel for work when I have a kid this young. No one else traveling to these conferences are primary care givers for children this age! It is very difficult to keep a career like this going while also being a young mother. It's not like other jobs, I think, not that they are easy. My fault for getting into this field. This field needs to change!!

I also get your reference to the drinking. I've gone to conferences where I take my child with me, and after the working day is done, I head to the hotel. Well, the child-free colleagues all go out drinking and meet at bars, and bond, and then the next day there is shared experience, bonding, inside jokes, and a closer working relationship. So, you are indeed right. That doesn't get to me as much as the juggling part, but it certainly does make a difference in getting ahead and working with people. It's just different when you have other obligations - parenting - you are balancing.

[cchrissyy]

It's very female over here. like, 80% female.

[physmom]

Originally Posted by That Is Nice

Yes! I too am in academia. And none of the men I work with are the primary caregiver to a young child like I am. It makes such a difference!.

Yes, you just can't compare when your colleagues have supermoms for wives. I am, honestly, just in awe of some of these women who hold down the fort with a herd of kids and still manage to hosts dinner parties while their husbands are constantly on the go and even when they are at home they are working 24/7.

Originally Posted by That Is Nice

Yes, yes, and yes! I think you get my career and my struggles. We have meetings and travel that occur when I don't have daycare, and the travel to conferences basically tears my life apart. It's crazy having to travel for work when I have a kid this young. No one else traveling to these conferences are primary care givers for children this age! It is very difficult to keep a career like this going while also being a young mother. It's not like other jobs, I think, not that they are easy. My fault for getting into this field. This field needs to change!!

I also get your reference to the drinking. I've gone to conferences where I take my child with me, and after the working day is done, I head to the hotel. Well, the child-free colleagues all go out drinking and meet at bars, and bond, and then the next day there is shared experience, bonding, inside jokes, and a closer working relationship. So, you are indeed right. That doesn't get to me as much as the juggling part, but it certainly does make a difference in getting ahead and working with people. It's just different when you have other obligations - parenting - you are balancing.

Yep, I really believe there is a reason there are just no young moms in the field. It's not that people discriminate directly but there's just so much more going on. The long hours, managing conferences without daycare, missing out on all the bonding time etc. We have a unique situation because DH works with me so to some extent he's had the same struggle as me. We've had a myriad of childcare situations. Sometimes we've switched off between talks at conferences, other times we found a local daycare that would take DD for a week. Once we had MIL travel with us (and paid all her expenses). All options have their price and it's NOT easy!

We have the added problem of being a dual-career couple, which means even finding other jobs are harder. For instance, I had a real possibility for a job in France but there was just no way I could pursue it with a family to think about. Moving to a country where none of us know the language was just a very unrealistic possibility.

I noticed you posted about income too... Honestly? Academics aren't in it for the income. Just to give you an idea. I looked for a job in industry just to see how it worked (didn't get it because I did absolutely nothing to prepare for the interview but that's another story). Anyways, that job would've paid me 5 times what DH (who is quite a bit more senior than I am) earns right now! I wasn't serious about it, and probably wouldn't have any accepted it but we're clearly not in it for the money.

For me, I love the flexibility I have with work hours, and even the travel *sometimes*. I also really like my colleagues despite the constrains that I have. Realistically, I'm not going to end up as an Ivy League professor, I just don't have the time or the energy for that. But I'd be happy teaching at a smaller college/university as long as it's enough to provide for my family (and realistically, we probably won't have a big family either... maybe one more.. maybe). It's all a balancing act.

DH likes to say that if you're an academia you don't do it because of the money or the job. You do it because you can't do anything else, you're addicted and can't leave. In many fields (in the sciences at least, I can't speak for anything else) the jobs are much better in terms of benefits and income outside of academia.

[That Is Nice]

Originally Posted by physmom

Yes, you just can't compare when your colleagues have supermoms for wives. I am, honestly, just in awe of some of these women who hold down the fort with a herd of kids and still manage to hosts dinner parties while their husbands are constantly on the go and even when they are at home they are working 24/7.




Yep, I really believe there is a reason there are just no young moms in the field. It's not that people discriminate directly but there's just so much more going on. The long hours, managing conferences without daycare, missing out on all the bonding time etc. We have a unique situation because DH works with me so to some extent he's had the same struggle as me. We've had a myriad of childcare situations. Sometimes we've switched off between talks at conferences, other times we found a local daycare that would take DD for a week. Once we had MIL travel with us (and paid all her expenses). All options have their price and it's NOT easy!

We have the added problem of being a dual-career couple, which means even finding other jobs are harder. For instance, I had a real possibility for a job in France but there was just no way I could pursue it with a family to think about. Moving to a country where none of us know the language was just a very unrealistic possibility.

I noticed you posted about income too... Honestly? Academics aren't in it for the income. Just to give you an idea. I looked for a job in industry just to see how it worked (didn't get it because I did absolutely nothing to prepare for the interview but that's another story). Anyways, that job would've paid me 5 times what DH (who is quite a bit more senior than I am) earns right now! I wasn't serious about it, and probably wouldn't have any accepted it but we're clearly not in it for the money.

For me, I love the flexibility I have with work hours, and even the travel *sometimes*. I also really like my colleagues despite the constrains that I have. Realistically, I'm not going to end up as an Ivy League professor, I just don't have the time or the energy for that. But I'd be happy teaching at a smaller college/university as long as it's enough to provide for my family (and realistically, we probably won't have a big family either... maybe one more.. maybe). It's all a balancing act.

DH likes to say that if you're an academia you don't do it because of the money or the job. You do it because you can't do anything else, you're addicted and can't leave. In many fields (in the sciences at least, I can't speak for anything else) the jobs are much better in terms of benefits and income outside of academia.

God, just THANK YOU for this post. You get it!! I wish I could cross-post your post in a few other forums.

Thank you, thank you, thank you!!

[physmom]

Originally Posted by That Is Nice

God, just THANK YOU for this post. You get it!! I wish I could cross-post your post in a few other forums.

Thank you, thank you, thank you!!

Haha, no problem.

My parents have lived with my being an academic for YEARS and still have no clue how it works and DH's family keeps asking when we're going to get "real jobs" and think that his current post doc position is firing him (his contract is up next year) and that's why he's currently looking for a new job.

It's a rough road to go down but it's hard to imagine ourselves doing anything else. We're constantly questioning it but the alternatives to me seem like I'd never be able to see DD because I'd be working all the time and I most likely wouldn't enjoy it nearly as much.

[lolar2]

I get it, I really do. These are the reasons I'm considering taking a break from academia; the humanities are a little better for the schedule but the pay is lower and the opportunities are fewer.

[That Is Nice]

Originally Posted by physmom

We have the added problem of being a dual-career couple, which means even finding other jobs are harder. For instance, I had a real possibility for a job in France but there was just no way I could pursue it with a family to think about. Moving to a country where none of us know the language was just a very unrealistic possibility.

This is something I feel is often overlooked on these type of threads on MDC. I'm not sure why that is to be honest.

By having to negotiate DH's career as well as my own, I'm not as entrenched in my career or paid as highly - probably - as I would have been had I graduated and been able to go and do whatever was best for my career. I say probably because you just never know for sure. I mean, I could have hit a brick wall on my own, too.

DH graduated first, then I graduated shortly after that. I went to the city where he had found employment. It wasn't a city ripe for my career or even a state that would have been the best. But I found work in my field and gained valuable experience. I did the best I could for that particularly city. But it certainly wasn't my plan out of college to do that.

And it wasn't even a city that was all that good for DH's career. He just went there because it was the only place that hired him. And we just sort of sat in that position and made no advancement or resume improvements for 2.5 years.

Then I thought - OK, I'll try to get a job where we can both get jobs. I still didn't take the big plunge and just go where I wanted to go. I should have in retrospect because that would have been the time for it and now, years later, DH says I should have chosen my move more wisely because you only get so many in life.

So, I got a pretty good job offer and took it and DH followed me and got a job too. And again DH stagnated and then the economy stagnated and I was doing OK, but the job opportunities weren't really in the state we lived in.

Now DH is doing a little better, but we aren't in a state or metro area that works that well for either of our careers. However, DH is so entrenched now (more than 10 years here) that he refuses to look for jobs elsewhere (not that he ever really did) and he says the time in our lives to move around and move up and get good jobs is past. We have a child now. He's not going anywhere.

Now, all around me I see couples are age with a child, or even with children, who are moving around and moving up and taking new positions. But DH isn't one for movement, or goals, or change so I don't see it happening as long as we're together.

I know I'd be in a different state and a different level in my field had I not tried to negotiate DH's career along this path, as well.

It is different when there are dual-careers at play. For sure.

[That Is Nice]

Originally Posted by lolar2

I get it, I really do. These are the reasons I'm considering taking a break from academia; the humanities are a little better for the schedule but the pay is lower and the opportunities are fewer.

You said it.

I mean academia has lots of good points. Just not maybe when you have young kids and are in need of cash.

I'm not doing the work because it's "interesting" - I went into this field because it was meaningful and gave back. I didn't want to just make money for a corporation. I wanted to work on real issues of real change. I am. It just doesn't really pay the personal bills at this juncture in life. It always did before and post-daycare probably will be fine. It's just difficult now and in the near future.

But to leave? I don't know. Re-entry in this economy? After already having a gap on my resume? I just don't feel like I have a strong enough footing to leave or to stay.

[Teenytoona]

Of the folks who for my company in this building I'd say it's close to 50-50 split. Women are mostly in admin/accounting and such. Out in the field (construction), it's nearly all men. My department (estimating) is very male dominated. Only 3 women work in this dept who are not admin. Consequently, I work with primarily men.


There are a fair amount of families here, many of the guys do have SAHW, but not all. They're pretty understanding about needing to do family things and work around it all.

[LittleBattleAxe]

TiN, and others in academia - let me start off by saying that my father worked as a college prof in a large state U when I was young (he was a PhD student when I was born and finished just before I started kindergarten). He's a geophysicist and has always loved the R and D side of things, not so much the teaching (though he did enjoy the friendships along the way). I do NOT know how my mother managed. My father worked at sea, overseas, in dangerous political/physical surroundings very frequently, and there were at least two occasions I can think of where my mother was unable to hear from him for weeks at a time and had to consider the possibility he might be dead, given the unrest in the places where he worked. And yes, she had to be supermom who hosted parties and welcomed graduate students who would stay at our house until well after midnight, and get fancied up for dinners at the faculty club, etc. She DID have a career (she ran a little Waldorf preschool) but in my dad's circle of colleagues, it was a pat-on-the-head-that's-nice career. No one took her choices seriously -- part of that was the times, and part of that was the nature of being a spouse to a tenure-track professor.

That was back in the day. I don't know how things have changed (I have one friend who is married to a college prof -- she's a physician and is pretty involved in her own career). My brother is a college prof at a small private college, and married one of his grad students a few years ago who is also now a prof. She was piggy-backed, at her current position. She hates it. She never gets good reviews/evaluations, and has little patience for the students, less for the workplace politics. My brother has become increasingly unhappy over time, as his department isn't taking the directions he thinks it has to in order to survive. My SIL has no ambition to advance down the road of academia, and definitely feels stagnate in her career. They did a lot of soul-searching and made a big decision -- that after the 2010-2011 school year, HE will move across the country and look for work in his field; SHE will stay at the U for one more year (so they can depend on her salary) then follow him.

It was NOT an easy choice. I know my brother, who is absolutely brilliant (says his adoring little sister!), has a lot of anxiety that his skills aren't as practical as those who have been working in the industry side of things. He is taking classes he would have sniffed at a few years ago, because he now sees that they will help him be more relevant. He likes the LIFESTYLE of academia, but he hates the political infighting. He's never worked a job outside of a university -- and he realizes he's in for a shock in a lot of ways. Still -- he is very sure that his future in academia is limited and he wants to ensure they have more opportunity. Their vision of their future together is for him to acquire work in his field, and my SIL can stop working and do what she loves to do -- carpentry and house restoration.

Not that this anecdote is helpful, but I wonder how widespread the view is among those in academia that their futures are rather severely restricted if they stay put. In many ways I KNOW my career is restricted, and I'm okay with that -- but my ambitions have always been about how to propel others, if that makes any sense.

Anyway -- after reading from those of you in academia - I do think there are a lot of compromises and "settling" that happen, and whether the trade-off is worthwhile or not doesn't always seem evident to me.

[That Is Nice]

Originally Posted by LittleBattleAxe

TiN, and others in academia - let me start off by saying that my father worked as a college prof in a large state U when I was young (he was a PhD student when I was born and finished just before I started kindergarten). He's a geophysicist and has always loved the R and D side of things, not so much the teaching (though he did enjoy the friendships along the way). I do NOT know how my mother managed. My father worked at sea, overseas, in dangerous political/physical surroundings very frequently, and there were at least two occasions I can think of where my mother was unable to hear from him for weeks at a time and had to consider the possibility he might be dead, given the unrest in the places where he worked. And yes, she had to be supermom who hosted parties and welcomed graduate students who would stay at our house until well after midnight, and get fancied up for dinners at the faculty club, etc. She DID have a career (she ran a little Waldorf preschool) but in my dad's circle of colleagues, it was a pat-on-the-head-that's-nice career. No one took her choices seriously -- part of that was the times, and part of that was the nature of being a spouse to a tenure-track professor.

That was back in the day. I don't know how things have changed (I have one friend who is married to a college prof -- she's a physician and is pretty involved in her own career). My brother is a college prof at a small private college, and married one of his grad students a few years ago who is also now a prof. She was piggy-backed, at her current position. She hates it. She never gets good reviews/evaluations, and has little patience for the students, less for the workplace politics. My brother has become increasingly unhappy over time, as his department isn't taking the directions he thinks it has to in order to survive. My SIL has no ambition to advance down the road of academia, and definitely feels stagnate in her career. They did a lot of soul-searching and made a big decision -- that after the 2010-2011 school year, HE will move across the country and look for work in his field; SHE will stay at the U for one more year (so they can depend on her salary) then follow him.

It was NOT an easy choice. I know my brother, who is absolutely brilliant (says his adoring little sister!), has a lot of anxiety that his skills aren't as practical as those who have been working in the industry side of things. He is taking classes he would have sniffed at a few years ago, because he now sees that they will help him be more relevant. He likes the LIFESTYLE of academia, but he hates the political infighting. He's never worked a job outside of a university -- and he realizes he's in for a shock in a lot of ways. Still -- he is very sure that his future in academia is limited and he wants to ensure they have more opportunity. Their vision of their future together is for him to acquire work in his field, and my SIL can stop working and do what she loves to do -- carpentry and house restoration.

Not that this anecdote is helpful, but I wonder how widespread the view is among those in academia that their futures are rather severely restricted if they stay put. In many ways I KNOW my career is restricted, and I'm okay with that -- but my ambitions have always been about how to propel others, if that makes any sense.

Anyway -- after reading from those of you in academia - I do think there are a lot of compromises and "settling" that happen, and whether the trade-off is worthwhile or not doesn't always seem evident to me.

Great post! Thanks for sharing! And, wow, your dad sounds like a dynamo. I can so relate to your dad...and your mom!

I've often felt like I am playing second fiddle to DH's career (he's in industry). He thinks I work in an ivory tower of fantasy. That my job and my job demands aren't real because I'm in the ivory tower of academia.

I have been treated as the pat-on-the-head-you-have-a-nice-career, too sort of way by DH and by his parents, and by - well - a lot of men where I work.

Even my own parents and grandparents. One of my parents once thanked DH for taking care of me and providing for me (when I made nearly as much money and got the benefits for our family and took care of everything at home).

There is something at play here - the transition from old world / old economy to new world / new economy. Women are still patted on the head like they're making a good attempt at being men.

You can charge ahead in a feminist way full force into your career and scoff at the perceived differences between males and females that others have when it comes to career and then WHAM! if you have a baby things will change drastically unless your partner is willing to step up. If he is, great. If he's like some of my friends husbands and a real new world / new economy man who takes parternity leave, flexes his career, balances with yours, you can probably continue to have a career and a baby. But if your partner is not really new world / new economy and doesn't ever plan to be AND doesn't want to be old world / old economy and provide for his family, then you will have a problem.

Men and women aren't that different in terms of careers. But mothers and fathers? Big difference.

Mentally I can compete with men.

Biologically? I'm the one carrying a child, lactating, and getting more emotional about kids. If a child isn't raised "right" or well taken care of who is held more responsible? The mother or the father? We all know it's the mother? And that doesn't matter if she works or not.

[kaybee]

I'll chime in, too. I'm in academia, in the sciences, and so is my DH. We are both on tenure-track appointments at the same institution (pot o' gold). We have 2 little kids. We both travel, we both have to go elsewhere to do field/lab work. We're both going nuts.

In terms of M/F, my department is a rarity. We are about 30% female, and they all have kids. Only one faculty member doesn't have kids (although many of the men have SAH partners, and many of their kids are grown). I think they understand how hard it is to try and keep up the pace while dealing with small crises at home. My DH has been gone A LOT lately for research. During the summer, it's fine. During the school year - well, I just cross my fingers and hope nobody gets sick.

His department is 100% male. His field is 90% male. I think he may get more sideways looks than I do when he can't make meetings/deadlines/etc. because he has the kids. I think he has a harder time putting down work when he's at home. I think he has higher expectations from his colleagues. It's not just women who are struggling.

I'm trying to find a happy medium where I take on as much as I can handle and do a great job with it, instead of taking on more than I can handle and doing a crappy job with it. I'm working on lowering expectations (my own, in particular) about how many conferences I can realistically make it to and how often I really need to get out in the field. I'm trying to pick up research projects closer to home.

One thing to keep in mind to those of you in male-dominated fields is that you are the role model for future women. They look to you to see how it can be done. I try to be positive but honest when students ask me about life as a geology professor with kids. I've dragged my babies/toddlers to meetings and gotten compliments from childless colleagues who see that it can be done. When I was in grad school, I was the first woman faculty or grad student to have a baby as far back as people could remember. This was the 21st century! It's ridiculous. When I left, two other women had babies - yay!

In my dreamworld, being on the tenure track and raising small children would not occur at the same time. I feel like I need to focus the maximum amount of time and effort on my career at exactly the same time I am maxed out on parenting. I get envious of older colleagues who are well-established with grown kids who can do things like brush their own teeth and put themselves to bed. Or colleagues who get through the tenure maze before having a family. Or those with SAH parents.

I hear you!

[LittleBattleAxe]

So true, that women in traditionally male-dominated fields are the role models for young women. I really value the role of working mom -- I do work in a field that is populated with far more women than men -- so in that regard not much of a trailblazer. I want my sons and daughter to realize that there are options in the world. I absolutely believe that women, ideally, should have the freedom to be SAHMs or WOHMs; that isn't always the case.

The whole pat-on-the-head-isn't-that-nice-dear attitude about working women makes me nuts. My husband has a somewhat high-profile job. I get that a lot. Thankfully dh appreciates, values, respects what I do. So many women not only have to fight for respect in the workforce, but at home as well. It's crazy.

TiN, about the comments re: your husband providing for you. That reminds me of my best friend and her situation. Her mother was a midwife who got a PhD and is now a professor at the local U's nursing school. Incredibly smart woman, very passionate about her field. BF's father works off and on -- his degree is in petro engineering. He's taken off time to start a consulting business (didn't launch), write a novel (didn't get published) and then he'll work again for a few months doing contract work. By default BF's mom has always been the breadwinner AND the primary parent. When BF was in college, she needed a car. Her mom told her she would put in a couple of thousand dollars, and all of us went to the car lot to look at used cars. While there, Bf's dad was talking with the salesman, discussing engines and torque and safety features. BF found the car she wanted, and took me on a test drive. When we came back there was a intense row going on between her parents. In a nutshell, BF's dad made some comment about "well we do have to please the little woman!" and BF's mom absolutely lost it. She told him that SHE made the financial decisions and HE was unable to pull his own weight, so HE could forget about acting like the Big Man in order to keep up some sense of masculine credibility.

I felt sort of shocked by the exchange (as much as I heard) but I also remember thinking it was very liberating. She put the cards on the table and called them what they were. She was a wife to man who didn't contribute a great deal, she had made the decision to stay with him, but she wasn't going to play into his need to validate himself in ways that simply weren't true.

[That Is Nice]

Originally Posted by LittleBattleAxe

So true, that women in traditionally male-dominated fields are the role models for young women. I really value the role of working mom -- I do work in a field that is populated with far more women than men -- so in that regard not much of a trailblazer. I want my sons and daughter to realize that there are options in the world. I absolutely believe that women, ideally, should have the freedom to be SAHMs or WOHMs; that isn't always the case.

The whole pat-on-the-head-isn't-that-nice-dear attitude about working women makes me nuts. My husband has a somewhat high-profile job. I get that a lot. Thankfully dh appreciates, values, respects what I do. So many women not only have to fight for respect in the workforce, but at home as well. It's crazy.

TiN, about the comments re: your husband providing for you. That reminds me of my best friend and her situation. Her mother was a midwife who got a PhD and is now a professor at the local U's nursing school. Incredibly smart woman, very passionate about her field. BF's father works off and on -- his degree is in petro engineering. He's taken off time to start a consulting business (didn't launch), write a novel (didn't get published) and then he'll work again for a few months doing contract work. By default BF's mom has always been the breadwinner AND the primary parent. When BF was in college, she needed a car. Her mom told her she would put in a couple of thousand dollars, and all of us went to the car lot to look at used cars. While there, Bf's dad was talking with the salesman, discussing engines and torque and safety features. BF found the car she wanted, and took me on a test drive. When we came back there was a intense row going on between her parents. In a nutshell, BF's dad made some comment about "well we do have to please the little woman!" and BF's mom absolutely lost it. She told him that SHE made the financial decisions and HE was unable to pull his own weight, so HE could forget about acting like the Big Man in order to keep up some sense of masculine credibility.

I felt sort of shocked by the exchange (as much as I heard) but I also remember thinking it was very liberating. She put the cards on the table and called them what they were. She was a wife to man who didn't contribute a great deal, she had made the decision to stay with him, but she wasn't going to play into his need to validate himself in ways that simply weren't true.

Originally Posted by kaybee

I'll chime in, too. I'm in academia, in the sciences, and so is my DH. We are both on tenure-track appointments at the same institution (pot o' gold). We have 2 little kids. We both travel, we both have to go elsewhere to do field/lab work. We're both going nuts.

In terms of M/F, my department is a rarity. We are about 30% female, and they all have kids. Only one faculty member doesn't have kids (although many of the men have SAH partners, and many of their kids are grown). I think they understand how hard it is to try and keep up the pace while dealing with small crises at home. My DH has been gone A LOT lately for research. During the summer, it's fine. During the school year - well, I just cross my fingers and hope nobody gets sick.

His department is 100% male. His field is 90% male. I think he may get more sideways looks than I do when he can't make meetings/deadlines/etc. because he has the kids. I think he has a harder time putting down work when he's at home. I think he has higher expectations from his colleagues. It's not just women who are struggling.

I'm trying to find a happy medium where I take on as much as I can handle and do a great job with it, instead of taking on more than I can handle and doing a crappy job with it. I'm working on lowering expectations (my own, in particular) about how many conferences I can realistically make it to and how often I really need to get out in the field. I'm trying to pick up research projects closer to home.

One thing to keep in mind to those of you in male-dominated fields is that you are the role model for future women. They look to you to see how it can be done. I try to be positive but honest when students ask me about life as a geology professor with kids. I've dragged my babies/toddlers to meetings and gotten compliments from childless colleagues who see that it can be done. When I was in grad school, I was the first woman faculty or grad student to have a baby as far back as people could remember. This was the 21st century! It's ridiculous. When I left, two other women had babies - yay!

In my dreamworld, being on the tenure track and raising small children would not occur at the same time. I feel like I need to focus the maximum amount of time and effort on my career at exactly the same time I am maxed out on parenting. I get envious of older colleagues who are well-established with grown kids who can do things like brush their own teeth and put themselves to bed. Or colleagues who get through the tenure maze before having a family. Or those with SAH parents.

I hear you!

I think Helen Reddy says it better than I ever can:

I am woman, hear me roar
In numbers too big to ignore
And I know too much to go back an' pretend
'cause I've heard it all before
And I've been down there on the floor
No one's ever gonna keep me down again

CHORUS
Oh yes I am wise
But it's wisdom born of pain
Yes, I've paid the price
But look how much I gained
If I have to, I can do anything
I am strong (strong)
I am invincible (invincible)
I am woman

You can bend but never break me
'cause it only serves to make me
More determined to achieve my final goal
And I come back even stronger
Not a novice any longer
'cause you've deepened the conviction in my soul

CHORUS

I am woman watch me grow
See me standing toe to toe
As I spread my lovin' arms across the land
But I'm still an embryo
With a long long way to go
Until I make my brother understand

Oh yes I am wise
But it's wisdom born of pain
Yes, I've paid the price
But look how much I gained
If I have to I can face anything
I am strong (strong)
I am invincible (invincible)
I am woman
Oh, I am woman
I am invincible
I am strong

[That Is Nice]

Originally Posted by LittleBattleAxe

I felt sort of shocked by the exchange (as much as I heard) but I also remember thinking it was very liberating. She put the cards on the table and called them what they were. She was a wife to man who didn't contribute a great deal, she had made the decision to stay with him, but she wasn't going to play into his need to validate himself in ways that simply weren't true.

I know I would have felt empowered by such a woman when I was a teen or college student. Oh, yeah. I would have been like that lady rocks, I want to be her!

I get really upset when DH makes his "sugar daddy" type comments. Yes, he's used that phrase with me. Yes, he has.

One, he's no sugar daddy even if there were someone looking for one! And, two, good Lord, I have a career, more in retirement than he does, and more seniority. What on earth is he talking about? I feel like I've done the time, paid the dues, and yet I still get the "lil woman," "sugar daddy," "wifey" kinds of remarks.

I hate when people defer to my husband on things. Usually they find out really quickly to turn their conversation to us both or just me. You don't know how many times I've been in an emergency room or bank or something where the doctor or accountant starts addressing and asking questions of my husband who looks bewildered and wild-eyed looks to me to fill in.

That isn't empowering to me, though. That's exhausting and demoralizing. I'm a proud feminist but sometimes I need someone to dribble the ball down the court.

[KayTeeJay]

My office is about half and half in total, but the individual positions are somewhat stereotypically divided. We're a fortune 50 company and I'm at the company HQ. In my division, there are more men than women in the higher-paying positions. All our CSRs are women, though. Over half of the CSRs are late 20's/early 30's with young kids, but it works well because both CSR groups are designed to cover vacations and sick days very easily. They are hourly, so if someone has used all their allotted days and their child is sick, they just take a day without pay. I am in a business analyst-type role, and salary, but my husband has very long hours in a demanding job (12 hour shifts, either 6am to 6pm or 6pm to 6am) in management for a 24-hour operation. All of my son (and this upcoming baby)'s sick days fall to me, unless by some miracle they would happen on one of his off days. If they do, he's happy to watch our son. However, him taking a random Monday off because our son is sick, is not an option at this point. He makes triple what I do, and this is the price we pay at this point in our lives to get to where we want to be. Luckily my job is fairly understanding, although I am quickly running out of my "allowed" vacation/sick days for this year. Obviously my son isn't going to stop getting sick just because I'm out of days, so they're just going to have to deal with it. Truly, I'm not sure what will happen once I have #2 (late Dec). My husband will likely get a promotion in October to a job with comparable total hours, but a more unpredictable schedule. Being a SAHM might be in my future, who knows.

I feel for you, TIN....my husband and I have a great relationship with family support from both sides and it is extremely hard. I can't imagine what it is like in your situation.

[That Is Nice]

Originally Posted by KayTeeJay

I feel for you, TIN....my husband and I have a great relationship with family support from both sides and it is extremely hard. I can't imagine what it is like in your situation.

Thanks so much. It's not easy for any of us, is it?

I can sum it up this way. I used to take a vacation day when things got out of control to do the laundry, clean up, run errands, and get life back on track before going back to work the next day. Triage.

Now, I fantasize about taking a vacation day to just...sleep. Just sleep. That's all.

I would never have dreamed of using a vacation day to sleep in the past. Now it seems like a fantastically wonderful and useful reason to use up my vacation time.

[LittleBattleAxe]

TiN, if it's any consolation -- my dh is very supportive and really does contribute, and yet I fantasize about spending a weekend alone in a hotel somewhere. Just to relax and not have to do anything. And have maid service!
Ahhh...

[That Is Nice]

Originally Posted by LittleBattleAxe

TiN, if it's any consolation -- my dh is very supportive and really does contribute, and yet I fantasize about spending a weekend alone in a hotel somewhere. Just to relax and not have to do anything. And have maid service!
Ahhh...

Go for it! At least once!



I sometimes power nap in the car for 5 minutes before I pick up my son from daycare.

I also sometimes will leave work for 5 or 10 (or 15) minutes to take a walk around the building. It gets the blood moving.

And I drink way, way too much coffee. I never used to drink coffee...now it's my crutch and indulgence. Yeah, it adds up in price, but it's an investment in getting through work and the day.

[KayTeeJay]

Originally Posted by That Is Nice

Thanks so much. It's not easy for any of us, is it?

I can sum it up this way. I used to take a vacation day when things got out of control to do the laundry, clean up, run errands, and get life back on track before going back to work the next day. Triage.

Now, I fantasize about taking a vacation day to just...sleep. Just sleep. That's all.

I would never have dreamed of using a vacation day to sleep in the past. Now it seems like a fantastically wonderful and useful reason to use up my vacation time.

Oh no kidding, wouldn't that be wonderful?? I am jealous of DH sometimes because of his two days off, he'll often take one to catch up on sleep and then keep our son the other day. And truly, we are lucky enough to have his parents and my mom/stepdad in town, and they are both wonderful grandparents that my son adores and vice versa. If I ever asked either of them to keep him while I slept on a Saturday or Sunday, they would happily do it. They've been suggesting it, actually. But, I can't....I already don't see him during the day on weekdays. While he is this little, I couldn't send him off for a weekend day too, when it's one of my precious whole days with him. I wouldn't be able to sleep anyway--I'd be thinking about all the stuff I should be doing around the house! It's never ending, isn't it?