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post #41 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by That Is Nice View Post
But when it comes to gifts given to the grandkids, I want fairness. I'm tired of them treating my kid as less. It's not so much about the things, as much as the sentiment. They always give less time and less money. And that just smells bad after a few years.
You really need to let this go, it seems to be eating you up with angst. Life is not fair, we learn that very young. But we just have to get on with life, fair or unfair. Your ILs can't be forced into fairness.
post #42 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by That Is Nice View Post

But when it comes to gifts given to the grandkids, I want fairness. I'm tired of them treating my kid as less. It's not so much about the things, as much as the sentiment. They always give less time and less money. And that just smells bad after a few years.
How is dwelling on this helping you?

You can not change this. They can be unfair, and no amount of anger will make them be fair. They aren't being good grandparents to your son, but your being right about that doesn't help here.

How do you know how much time and money they give to the other grandkids? If it were me, I would do my best to stop getting that information-- when they start talking about it, leave the room, change the subject, end the phone call, whatever. If you find out about it on facebook, block them. You need to stop ruminating about this, it's not good for you.

Is there any chance that you're depressed? Please take care of yourself
post #43 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamalisa View Post
Let it go. There's nothing you can do that you haven't already done. You've invited them many times, they've declined, just stop. You're only hurting yourself.
i agree, i feel bad for you that they prefer them over your family but thats just how life is sometime, unfair.
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post #44 of 164
Is the reason you are again trying to broker peace in the Middle East by force of will (to refer to an earlier thread) that your H is trying to convince you that you are wrong about the unfairness or something? You have never, in any thread of yours I've read, quoted him as saying anything that makes any sense at all. He talks like an Alice in Wonderland character according to your quotations of him. Based on everything you have ever written about him, there is no reason ever to take anything he says seriously. Well, I take it back-- sometimes you say he informs you point-blank that he will never change, you can take that part seriously.
post #45 of 164
I would like fairness too. My situation is different. I have 2 DD's. They have different fathers. DD1's gran, XMIL, lives 4miles away and has NEVER visited her here. She sees DD when XP bothers to take DD to her. Which is rarely. She has very little money and doesn't spend it on DD. She cares for her other 2 granddaughters FULL TIME when they aren't in school and sees them multiple times a week.

DD2 has 2 loving involved grandparents, who, bless them, make a huge effort to be fair with DD1 and never give more to her sister than to her. But you know what, when FIL visits here (every week) DD1 knows he never did that before her sister was born. When they gaze at the baby and see their sons eyes, they can't hide their pleasure and DD1, at 4 years old, can tell their love for her is different. Not less. But different. They try SO darn hard - they spend money and time equitably, they give attention fairly, they treat her like one of theirs, but now there is a comparison to make, by comparison you can see the difference.

I would do anything to make the situation fair for my DD1. Anything to have XMIL care as much as MIL and FIL do, or even as much as she does for her other grand children. Anything to have MIL and FIL love her AS family and not LIKE family. But i can't do anything. Life is NOT FAIR. And it's not going to be fair, not for my kid, not for yours. You, and I, cannot make it fair. The best we can do is raise resilient children who are able to celebrate what they have and give their love freely to those who love them, however unfairly that love is distributed.

Your anger over this situation is a waste of energy and if your child picks up on it will be transmitted to him, potentially damaging how he feels about both his grandparents and his cousins. Which will only further complicate family relations while still making nothing more fair. Isn't it better to let him enjoy what contact he has with these people, however "unfair" the terms seem to you, than to taint what he does get with your anger over what you think he should get?

Your issues with the help you need are not your IL's problems, they're yours and you cannot go to your IL's with them - they have demonstrated most abundantly how they feel about that. Seek other answers, let go of these expectations whic are never going to be met and which are causing you such pain. Your son is lucky, even if his GP's aren't fair, his mother has a strong sense of justice. You can't make anyone treat him fairly but you can raise him to treat others fairly, which is a powerful gift for him and for the world.
post #46 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by That Is Nice View Post
Respectfully, this isn't about poor planning.

This is about poor grandparenting.
I guess I just cannot comprehend why you would want to have people who you obviously do not like to be responsible for caring for your son. Is all of this anger really worth a few days of babysitting spread out over a year's time?

My in laws are very similar - they will move heaven and earth for my SIL's daughters but rarely see my two girls. Does it irritate me and make me feel terrible for my husband - yes. Will I ever let my girls know how I feel - nope because I'm pretty sure that if things don't change significantly they will see the disparity all on their own. I want them to make the decisions regarding how they feel about their grandparents but until that day comes I will visit when invited but I certainly would not go out of my way to leave my girls alone with them as I would feel horrible if they were unhappy or not wanting to be there. Instead I would gladly pay for a babysitter (if necessary) so that they can be in the care of someone they enjoy being with.
post #47 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoBecGo View Post
Your anger over this situation is a waste of energy and if your child picks up on it will be transmitted to him, potentially damaging how he feels about both his grandparents and his cousins. Which will only further complicate family relations while still making nothing more fair. Isn't it better to let him enjoy what contact he has with these people, however "unfair" the terms seem to you, than to taint what he does get with your anger over what you think he should get?
Exactly. I do my very best to keep my feelings to myself - the last thing I want are for my daughters to feel that I made them hate their grandparents. Instead, I encourage them to have fun while we visit, even bring things with to keep them occupied and happy so that they don't feel bored or ignored. In time, if the grandparents don't change, they will see them for what they truly are and will be able to make their own decision as to how close they want to be. I would never purposely let my feelings influence my children's.
post #48 of 164
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by choli View Post
You really need to let this go, it seems to be eating you up with angst. Life is not fair, we learn that very young. But we just have to get on with life, fair or unfair. Your ILs can't be forced into fairness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zeldamomma View Post
How is dwelling on this helping you?

You can not change this. They can be unfair, and no amount of anger will make them be fair. They aren't being good grandparents to your son, but your being right about that doesn't help here.

How do you know how much time and money they give to the other grandkids? If it were me, I would do my best to stop getting that information-- when they start talking about it, leave the room, change the subject, end the phone call, whatever. If you find out about it on facebook, block them. You need to stop ruminating about this, it's not good for you.

Is there any chance that you're depressed? Please take care of yourself
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharlla View Post
i agree, i feel bad for you that they prefer them over your family but thats just how life is sometime, unfair.
Posted via Mobile Device
Quote:
Originally Posted by lolar2 View Post
Is the reason you are again trying to broker peace in the Middle East by force of will (to refer to an earlier thread) that your H is trying to convince you that you are wrong about the unfairness or something? You have never, in any thread of yours I've read, quoted him as saying anything that makes any sense at all. He talks like an Alice in Wonderland character according to your quotations of him. Based on everything you have ever written about him, there is no reason ever to take anything he says seriously. Well, I take it back-- sometimes you say he informs you point-blank that he will never change, you can take that part seriously.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoBecGo View Post
I would like fairness too. My situation is different. I have 2 DD's. They have different fathers. DD1's gran, XMIL, lives 4miles away and has NEVER visited her here. She sees DD when XP bothers to take DD to her. Which is rarely. She has very little money and doesn't spend it on DD. She cares for her other 2 granddaughters FULL TIME when they aren't in school and sees them multiple times a week.

DD2 has 2 loving involved grandparents, who, bless them, make a huge effort to be fair with DD1 and never give more to her sister than to her. But you know what, when FIL visits here (every week) DD1 knows he never did that before her sister was born. When they gaze at the baby and see their sons eyes, they can't hide their pleasure and DD1, at 4 years old, can tell their love for her is different. Not less. But different. They try SO darn hard - they spend money and time equitably, they give attention fairly, they treat her like one of theirs, but now there is a comparison to make, by comparison you can see the difference.

I would do anything to make the situation fair for my DD1. Anything to have XMIL care as much as MIL and FIL do, or even as much as she does for her other grand children. Anything to have MIL and FIL love her AS family and not LIKE family. But i can't do anything. Life is NOT FAIR. And it's not going to be fair, not for my kid, not for yours. You, and I, cannot make it fair. The best we can do is raise resilient children who are able to celebrate what they have and give their love freely to those who love them, however unfairly that love is distributed.

Your anger over this situation is a waste of energy and if your child picks up on it will be transmitted to him, potentially damaging how he feels about both his grandparents and his cousins. Which will only further complicate family relations while still making nothing more fair. Isn't it better to let him enjoy what contact he has with these people, however "unfair" the terms seem to you, than to taint what he does get with your anger over what you think he should get?

Your issues with the help you need are not your IL's problems, they're yours and you cannot go to your IL's with them - they have demonstrated most abundantly how they feel about that. Seek other answers, let go of these expectations whic are never going to be met and which are causing you such pain. Your son is lucky, even if his GP's aren't fair, his mother has a strong sense of justice. You can't make anyone treat him fairly but you can raise him to treat others fairly, which is a powerful gift for him and for the world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TCMoulton View Post
I guess I just cannot comprehend why you would want to have people who you obviously do not like to be responsible for caring for your son. Is all of this anger really worth a few days of babysitting spread out over a year's time?

My in laws are very similar - they will move heaven and earth for my SIL's daughters but rarely see my two girls. Does it irritate me and make me feel terrible for my husband - yes. Will I ever let my girls know how I feel - nope because I'm pretty sure that if things don't change significantly they will see the disparity all on their own. I want them to make the decisions regarding how they feel about their grandparents but until that day comes I will visit when invited but I certainly would not go out of my way to leave my girls alone with them as I would feel horrible if they were unhappy or not wanting to be there. Instead I would gladly pay for a babysitter (if necessary) so that they can be in the care of someone they enjoy being with.
I'm not angry. I'm disappointed. And drowning.

It does take a village. I don't want them to come so I can be friends with them. I want them to be fair so that my son isn't left as a latch key kid or in crappy daycare at the expense of my career, or conversely so that my career isn't torpedoed because I need to care for my child without a village.

If I had the resources to hire a nanny rather than ever relying on anyone I would. But I don't, and I won't, and what I've been doing for the last 5 years 'ain't' working.

This isn't anger. It's desperation. Here are some grandparents - related by blood to my son - who have the means and the interest to be the kind of grandparents we need to their other grandchildren. I just want them to widen their net. I'm desperate.

Unless I get some help, either the parenting or the career is going to suffer. I can't do it all on my own, at least not at this age and with these special needs. Just can't.
post #49 of 164
Thread Starter 
Turn it around:

Think of whatever help or assistance or support - whatever - you get from your children's grandparents - both sets or more than two sets.

Now subtract that from your life.

How does that feel? Is it OK? Doable? Acceptable? Would you be OK? Desperate? (I guess this would only apply to those of you with kids who are juggling two careers and raising children...having a SAHP would be a whole different ball of wax here...).

Now consider that the help / support you had is now going to someone else's kids. It doesn't have to be one or the other. It could actually be both. But your parents or inlaws are still able to provide the support...just not to you. And you can't totally disregard it and ignore it because they're a part of the life and you see it and they tell you about it, and they make up bogus excuses as to why it's happening like "we can't visit you because you work" and "well, we stay longer or do more for them because we buy airfare to visit them and we drive to see you..."

Turn it around. I know there is acknowledgement that it's less than ideal, but, really, would you be able to do all parenting and all career balancing without any sort of village of support?

And how do you react when the inlaws - or whomever - want to schedule a visit that lasts 4 hours to drop off some gifts for your child but they have to do it the week before, or two weeks before, because they are planning - again - to fly out for a week at Christmas to visit their other grandkids and they want to spend Christmas Eve, Christmas morning, all day Christmas with the kids and the week after shopping with them and building them playsets and playhouses and spending time with them and babysitting?

What do you do then? Because every year they are treating your child like an after thought and like he's less important. Do you let them?

And how would you feel if your MIL is talking to a group of other grandmothers she exercises with who are remarking how nice it is that your MIL is able to visit her out of state grandchildren every 3 months for a week and your MIL says "oh, yes, it's so important when they are young. We like to go out for a week every three months." And the women say, "We didn't know you had another grandchild, too! We've never heard you mention your other son's family."

Crazy.
post #50 of 164
No one is saying that what they are doing is good. At best, a few people here have said that it's acceptable; most of us agree that it is wrong. What everyone is saying is that they are never going to change no matter what you do.

So, I just did the thought experiment you suggested. And I came up with an answer for what I would do-- take it for whatever it's worth. Number one, I probably would run up those cards, walk away from the house, and generally trash my credit (after getting an apartment) in the way I outlined on the other thread. Number two, I understand that you don't want to give out your location in a public forum. I would go to the Find Your Tribe section and make a list of everyone within two hours (or whatever, depends on the area) of you; then do a search on your old threads of the past couple of years to see if any of them are people who are at all familiar with your situation; then I would pm them and ask for help.

ETA: you're saying, would I "let" these hypothetical grandparents treat my son worse than their other grandchildren? No more than I "let" hurricanes and earthquakes occur. No more than I "let" the banking system collapse in 2008. It would not be under my control.
post #51 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by That Is Nice View Post
Turn it around:

Think of whatever help or assistance or support - whatever - you get from your children's grandparents - both sets or more than two sets.

Now subtract that from your life.

How does that feel? Is it OK? Doable? Acceptable? Would you be OK? Desperate? (I guess this would only apply to those of you with kids who are juggling two careers and raising children...having a SAHP would be a whole different ball of wax here...).

Now consider that the help / support you had is now going to someone else's kids. It doesn't have to be one or the other. It could actually be both. But your parents or inlaws are still able to provide the support...just not to you. And you can't totally disregard it and ignore it because they're a part of the life and you see it and they tell you about it, and they make up bogus excuses as to why it's happening like "we can't visit you because you work" and "well, we stay longer or do more for them because we buy airfare to visit them and we drive to see you..."

Turn it around. I know there is acknowledgement that it's less than ideal, but, really, would you be able to do all parenting and all career balancing without any sort of village of support?

And how do you react when the inlaws - or whomever - want to schedule a visit that lasts 4 hours to drop off some gifts for your child but they have to do it the week before, or two weeks before, because they are planning - again - to fly out for a week at Christmas to visit their other grandkids and they want to spend Christmas Eve, Christmas morning, all day Christmas with the kids and the week after shopping with them and building them playsets and playhouses and spending time with them and babysitting?

What do you do then? Because every year they are treating your child like an after thought and like he's less important. Do you let them?
I would find a way to cope that wouldn't drive me crazy. This is what it is, and plenty of people deal with worse. Your obsessing about this is the main problem here. It's not healthy, and it's why I suggested you may be depressed. The world is full of people who would be happy to offer you support, but you aren't going to find them while you focus on your ILs.
post #52 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by That Is Nice View Post
Turn it around. I know there is acknowledgement that it's less than ideal, but, really, would you be able to do all parenting and all career balancing without any sort of village of support?
are you serious?!!! seriously!!!

go over to the single parenting family and ask them this.

my village comes from 'framily' that i have created. friends who became family. i dont have any family here. ex's parents are too old and now gone. i even have a guardian in case i die. not a family member. not ex but my dd's and my bf.

and i did it alone. by myself with some coparenting and no financial support from ex.

no i absolutely dont wish this on anyone.

but it can be done. it IS being done.

the thing we all are trying to tell you is that help is there. the village is there. it does not have to be with gparents who dont care.

and yes yes yes. i was the pariah in my family. my dd is the pariah - someone to be pitied and ignored. her cousin gets the strawberry milk. my dd gets plain milk. at the SAME dinner table. cousin gets the breast and my dd gets ONE wing piece and that's it.

do i let them? i guess in a way i do. if i continue to visit them then yes i do.

however i dont. i consider myself having no family that i care about. we do see them at different rare family functions, but i have moved on. i can smile and be polite. and the fly into the arms of the framily i have created.
post #53 of 164
I honestly think a lot of parents don't get tons of help and support from the grandparents. Many of us live in different states. Fairness in parenting/grandparenting doesn't really exist -- and it would be exhausting to compare all the time.

TIS, I do think it stinks that your IL's favor their other son and aren't the devoted kind you'd prefer, but I agree with PP's in that you can find help elsewhere. I would totally start by connecting with local MDC mamas.

to you.
post #54 of 164
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by meemee View Post
are you serious?!!! seriously!!!

go over to the single parenting family and ask them this.
I have been in that forum, and many kudos to the single parents out there. But when you read the forum, many, many of the people posting live with their parents or did, and many are on govt assistance, which is sort of like a partner that helps when there is no partner, no?

I'm all for govt assistance, and support it fully, and have no qualms with my tax dollars going to it. I'm a bleeding heart liberal and think it's a necessity in society to protect children, elderly, and the disabled. Just wanted to say that.

But when you read the forum for single parents, there are not too many single parents out there not getting help from their own parents or from public assistance. There are some, yes, and to all we should give them kudos and respect. Because it is a hard job.

And, yes, I was serious to answer your other question.
post #55 of 164
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drummer's Wife View Post
I honestly think a lot of parents don't get tons of help and support from the grandparents. Many of us live in different states. Fairness in parenting/grandparenting doesn't really exist -- and it would be exhausting to compare all the time.
I'm not looking for tons of help and support. I'm looking for some support and fairness.

Really? Really, truly you all feel that grandparents are under no obligation to treat their grandchildren fairly? I'm not talking about in all phases of life. I mean, I can see if a 20-something grandchild rips off or steals from a grandparent, they have every right to cut them out of their life.

But I'm talking about the under 5 set. Innocent, sweet kids who are just that - innocent, sweet young babes.

Grandparents are under no obligation to treat them fairly? Even when there are only 5 total and all around the same age?



I just don't see any justification for treating KIDS you are related to differently.
post #56 of 164
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drummer's Wife View Post
that your IL's favor their other son.
Hmmm...I don't see why favoring one son would then traslate to favoring some grandkids over others.

I'm not even sure they do favor one son over the other. I think they favor the pool, the warmer climate, and the setting. Probably they favor SIL over me. They give in to the other son more, and always have, but I don't see why that would translate to spending way more time and way more money on some grandchildren than others, particularly grandchildren whose parents make more money than others and therefore have more to begin with.



I don't get that. I can see why they would treat the adults differently. But the kids? And young kids at that?
post #57 of 164
I don't think that anyone is saying that it's ideal. But I agree with everyone else that it is what it is, and you just have to accept it. Venting here is a healthy way of dealing with it, but beyond that there really isn't much you can do. I wouldn't ask them for financial help again: that seems to be setting yourself up for a fall.

FWIW both my parents and all of my in-laws but one live on a different continent. My FIL and his second wife live about two hours from me. We see them maybe 3 or 4 times a year. We have a good relationship with them, but they are very busy. They both work full time, and in their spare time they enjoy traveling. They go on vacations all over the world a few times a year. And no, I don't hold it against them. They (well, my FIL... his wife does not have children and they met and married while DH was an adult) already raised kids. Many grandparents feel like their job is done. My parents aren't particularly helpful (and we only see them about twice a year) and DH's mother and her family are not in a position to be of much help, physical or emotional or financial.

I do think that a village would be a really nice thing to have, but I don't have one. It's hard, but we scrape by. When I was a child, my parents had even less support than I do. My mother's parents were dead and my father was estranged from his family. I can count on one hand the number of times in my childhood that I met a relative other than my parents.

It sounds like your ILs like your SIL and BIL better, and more importantly they like their house better. It is what it is. They've already raised their children and worked hard and now they want to enjoy their old age. It may not be fair, but there really isn't anything you can do but accept it.
post #58 of 164
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lach View Post
I don't think that anyone is saying that it's ideal. But I agree with everyone else that it is what it is, and you just have to accept it. Venting here is a healthy way of dealing with it, but beyond that there really isn't much you can do. I wouldn't ask them for financial help again: that seems to be setting yourself up for a fall.

FWIW both my parents and all of my in-laws but one live on a different continent. My FIL and his second wife live about two hours from me. We see them maybe 3 or 4 times a year. We have a good relationship with them, but they are very busy. They both work full time, and in their spare time they enjoy traveling. They go on vacations all over the world a few times a year. And no, I don't hold it against them. They (well, my FIL... his wife does not have children and they met and married while DH was an adult) already raised kids. Many grandparents feel like their job is done. My parents aren't particularly helpful (and we only see them about twice a year) and DH's mother and her family are not in a position to be of much help, physical or emotional or financial.

I do think that a village would be a really nice thing to have, but I don't have one. It's hard, but we scrape by. When I was a child, my parents had even less support than I do. My mother's parents were dead and my father was estranged from his family. I can count on one hand the number of times in my childhood that I met a relative other than my parents.

It sounds like your ILs like your SIL and BIL better, and more importantly they like their house better. It is what it is. They've already raised their children and worked hard and now they want to enjoy their old age. It may not be fair, but there really isn't anything you can do but accept it.
I do see what you are saying. And others, too. There are no guarantees of fairness. I get that.

I also see that when relationships are not traditional, for instance, when there are divorces and remarriages and step inlaws, the circumstances would probably be different. I mean, I feel for people writing posts who say their step-MIL prefers her own grandkids. That's got to be hard because there isn't anything that can be done to change the bond, most likely.

But with my inlaws, they are the full-blooded parents/grandparents, married only to each other. The grandkids are both from their son (as compared to one son and one daughter which might explain a difference in the relationship) and the grandkids are all within a year of age of each other, which might be another explanation if perhaps they are spoiling a newborn or bonding more with a teenager.

So, all things are pretty equal in those terms - the scenario. Same blood lines. Same ages.

I guess I just look at it from my perspective: how do I give presents to cousins of my son? Obviously, I like some siblings better than others, right? And I'm closer to some than others. But I always get the same darn level of gifts and spend the same on the kids (the cousins). I didn't buy one kid a better or nicer gift because I liked that parent better. I buy all the cousins the same price range and pretty much the same things, age appropriately. Why can't my inlaws do that?

I could even imagine in the future not liking a daughter-in-law as much as another. I can't fathom letting it impact how I treat my grandchildren!

And finally, I guess what is most difficult to accept in all this is that the people who have let me down, like my own parents, have done it because of situations sort of beyond their control, like alcoholism or poverty or illness. I can get that and accept it with understanding and grace. I mean, if grandma is too impoversished or drunk or arthritic, I'm not holding that against them.

But DH's parents are retired (not working), healthy, financially sound, and they do for other grandkids what I'd like them to do for all. It's that they are choosing to do less and it's not because of poverty or alcohol or something.
post #59 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by That Is Nice View Post
What would you think of inlaws like this? What would you do?
i would think it's pretty crappy of them to treat their grandchild this way, in light of the fact that they treat their other grandchildren so differently. i'd be hurt. i'd be pissed.

i'd stop thinking of them as a potential resource for anything, really. i wouldn't cut them out of my life, but i wouldn't ask them for anything, or offer them anything. if they offered to visit, or to give my kids gifts or something, i'd probably accept it graciously, but i certainly wouldn't take those gestures as a given. and i'd move heaven and earth to find another way to fill that gap in my and my kids' life.

it would be sucky and really unfair, and a lot more work, on top of everything else you already do. i'd be really grumpy and resentful. but in the end, i'd let it go. what else can you do, really?

christina
post #60 of 164
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lafemmedesfemmes View Post
i would think it's pretty crappy of them to treat their grandchild this way, in light of the fact that they treat their other grandchildren so differently. i'd be hurt. i'd be pissed.

i'd stop thinking of them as a potential resource for anything, really. i wouldn't cut them out of my life, but i wouldn't ask them for anything, or offer them anything. if they offered to visit, or to give my kids gifts or something, i'd probably accept it graciously, but i certainly wouldn't take those gestures as a given. and i'd move heaven and earth to find another way to fill that gap in my and my kids' life.

it would be sucky and really unfair, and a lot more work, on top of everything else you already do. i'd be really grumpy and resentful. but in the end, i'd let it go. what else can you do, really?

christina
Yeah. What else can you do, really? Not much. What you described is what I did for basically 4 years. And then MIL and FIL did some even crappier things and I finally put my foot down and confronted them about why they were doing this and asked them to change. Well, DH did. He asked them to change. And they said they would but then they didn't. Same old, same old. So, I mean, do I put my foot down and say, no, you can't continue to do this? You either play fair or not at all? I'm sick of them treating DS like he's the "red-haired step child" or whatever the saying is. They seriously treat him like he's second class. And why should I let that happen? He's not. They're the ones lacking class IMO.

My feeling now is the old addage "if they can't play nicely, they have to go home."
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