'reasonable access'?

[Everrgreen]

Hello,
I am in the process of trying to figure out a separation agreement. My stbx is not very involved (he saw ds maybe twice in June for 2 hour visits, 1 day in July, and probably will only see him once for August - and all of these were with me there too). But he says he wants to try and see him more in the future, and would like one day per week. He is totally fine with me having sole physical/legal custody. What I'm wondering is, is it better to spell out exactly in the separation agreement what the visitation will be? Or just leave it as 'reasonable access'? What does reasonable access mean? If you have your agreement set up this way, how often does your ex have access? My plan for the separation agreement was to do 6 months of once a week visits, with me there. If he successfully does that, he can then have his once a week visits. I am also okay with eventually giving him every other weekend, but not until ds is about 6. And only if stbx has consistently been doing his weekly visits. With reasonable access can I refuse overnights if I don't feel it's right for ds?

Another issue is that stbx doesn't know where he's going to live and doesn't seem too concerned about being close to us. He will probably end up being 2-4 hours away. I have told him that all of the once a week visits will take place in our town. And that even if he eventually has every other weekend, I don't want ds having to make big car trips that often. Should that be written in as well? Or with sole custody, do I have the final say on that anyway? I guess another thing to think about is what if I want to move away, making stbx travel farther for his visits?

I just don't want to set it up and than have a ton of things that stbx could take me to court for.

[KalamazooMom]

My advice is make it very specific. *IF* things are going well after a while and you want to accomodate some additional time or changes to the schedule then that's fine. But at least starting out I would make it as specific as possible.

As far as him moving I think I would say something like he is responsible for transportation is he moves more than X miles away.

[mama_ani]

I would be very specific and then alter the agreement later if things go well.

[VocalMinority]

I've had it both ways: my ex and I get along fine and are very flexible about sharing our kids' time; and my husband and his ex wife have struggled for a decade over how to share time with their son. In BOTH cases, I feel a specific visitation schedule was essential, so I recommend that, not "reasonable access".

My ex and I came up with our own schedule about how often he should have P/T and how that time should change (to include overnights) as the kids got older. We wrote it out and signed it (although we never went to court, so who knows how binding it would be). As things come up - family occasions, business trips, sports schedules, etc. - and we switch this W/E for that; or change his Thursdays to Mondays; or he takes an extra day during the week because I wanted the boys to do something special with us one day of his weekend... It's nice to have that agreement in the background, reassuring him that there IS a certain amount of time we agreed he's entitled to, so he's not just dependent on my moods, when it comes to seeing his children; and reminding me that I don't always have to feel pressured to say yes to changes he wants. After all, they ARE changes to what we already agreed to do.

When there's conflict, "reasonable access" makes nothing clear and that's bad for both sides. When DH's ex had custody, he WAS completely dependent on her whims, in order to see his kid. The first two judges he petitioned for help said (basically), "If she says she believes 2 hours a month is reasonable, we can't say she's wrong because nothing in the law spells out what 'reasonable' means. So we can't say she's UNreasonable." You might ask, what's the down-side of that, if you're the custodial mom? DH's ex grew accustomed to the idea that whatever limits she wished to place on visitation were necessarily reasonable, since she had been given the power to set them. Then she was absolutely blindsided and devastated when the 3rd judge ruled that the amount of P/T she'd been giving DH was definitely unreasonable... and the court gave my husband sole custody, trusting he'd do a better job than his ex, about giving the NCP "reasonable access".

So, in the immediate sense "reasonable access" could give you all the power and frustrate your ex. But in the long run, if you and he dispute what's reasonable, you could be the one frustrated, if the judge agrees with his interpretation.

And don't be surprised if he wants much more access, as the child grows older. I'm not saying it's right, but it's a fact that some men who just don't know what to do with dependent, helpless, demanding babies and toddlers wind up being perfectly wonderful fathers to older, more verbal, more independent children who can kick a ball, feed themselves and watch movies that don't have singing dinosaurs in them. It is reasonable to be open to amending the visitation schedule later, to address your child's increasing maturity levels and changing need for time with his father.

[Everrgreen]

Thank you for all your input! I had already written out a draft separation agreement that was very specific, but then I started thinking that maybe it would be better to just say 'reasonable access' so that we would have more flexibility. But I guess we can always just be flexible anyway. The hypothetical situations I'm thinking of are things like giving an extra day for a specific reason, or switching weekends if we need to. I was also thinking of the possibility of offering the occasional overnight when ds is ready (before he is 6 and the regular eow overnights start).

So, I went through my draft agreement again, and I think I need to put in a maximum distance away for the overnights. The day only visits will be in our town. But what is a reasonable distance to expect a child to travel eow? My thoughts are 2 hours. I personally wouldn't be able to handle more than that so I feel that would also be best for a child.

[VocalMinority]

Originally Posted by Gillian28

But what is a reasonable distance to expect a child to travel eow?

That's really a great question!

In most cases, if a child's old enough for overnight visits, I'd say the determining factors ought to be:
* How far away does the NCP live? (I.e., you shouldn't try to control where he moves by saying he can have visitation in his own home if he moves 2 hours away, but not if he picks the town another 1/2-hour down the road.)
* How far are the parents willing to drive? If the NCP is willing to drive 3 hours each way for a weekend visit, maybe it's unreasonable to say he can't. What's the harm to the child? He may sleep the whole way - or those may wind up being really meaningful hours of talking, singing and bonding with Dad. I also think it's nice when the CP is willing to do 1/2 the driving - not to "help out" the NCP, but to acknowledge how important it is for the child, to have the NCP involved in his life.

HOWEVER, what if you have a wealthy NCP who wants to fly a kid halfway across the country EOW? I think that would be disruptive and distracting, during the school year. It would also interfere with sports and other extra-curricular activities. In your case, if your ex were to pick up your son EOW and drive him to his house 2 hours away, if your son had a football game, your ex could just remain in town 'til it was over. Not quite the same, for an unaccompanied minor flying 6 hours to see a parent. BUT how do you draw that line? How far is too far? I don't have the answer, but it's worth some thought.

[blessingscome]

I agree that "reasonable access" is just so hard to define. I highly reccomend putting in a basic schedule that you can fall back on but going ahead and being flexible with him. Perhaps that will be every week for an afternoon. Or it'll be EOW but you'll tell stbx that you're very willing to modify that for now but this'll work for later.

Frankly, the travel time should be up to stbx. If he's willing to drive to get your son then kudos to him. Some kids travel well, others don't and your stbx will figure out quickly if the distance is worthwhile to him. However, the weekend begins when your son leaves you, not when your stbx arrives at the destination. Or in the example of the wealthy NCP, it starts when your son leaves you, not when his plane arrives.

Perhaps a clause that he provides all transportation would be good and then the decision is truly up to him.

[Everrgreen]

I guess I don't really see the logic in leaving it up to my stbx to decide what is a reasonable distance to travel, even if it is him doing all of the driving. This should be about what's best for my son, not what my stbx is willing to do. And my stbx is making a choice to live far away (he doesn't have to move). I do think there needs to be a specific distance put in , because my ds might handle the actual drive ok (ie. not crying/fussing in the car), but then be exhausted when he gets back. And while I hope that my stbx would be concerned about that, I don't know that for sure. And, I don't want to take any chances and have him legally able to continue taking him eow. I don't see it being a good idea to leave it up to him as to how far my ds should travel.

[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by Gillian28

I guess I don't really see the logic in leaving it up to my stbx to decide what is a reasonable distance to travel, even if it is him doing all of the driving. This should be about what's best for my son, not what my stbx is willing to do. And my stbx is making a choice to live far away (he doesn't have to move). I do think there needs to be a specific distance put in , because my ds might handle the actual drive ok (ie. not crying/fussing in the car), but then be exhausted when he gets back. And while I hope that my stbx would be concerned about that, I don't know that for sure. And, I don't want to take any chances and have him legally able to continue taking him eow. I don't see it being a good idea to leave it up to him as to how far my ds should travel.

The other thing is, I don't know that you can control it anyway. My ex takes my son on ALL of his weekends to his parents house, about an hour away. DS does ok on the drives, but he always sleeps the whole way home and then doesn't go to bed for me until 10-11pm. It sucks, but its HIS parenting time, and he can do what he wants with it. 3-4hours drive might be a little different, but if you know thats whats happening adjust the exchange times accordingly - like, he can have your child from 12noon on Friday to 12 noon on Sunday, which gives you the afternoon with your child so that he can settle in before bed. Or whatever would work better.

On the other hand, if your ex agrees to have all the EOW visitation in your town, then that works too.