Someting went wrong - I am withdrawing from my 4yr daughter

[sora]

Hi,

My daughter turned 4. She has been a quite demanding child since birth. I had a baby in May and since then, I have hard time meeting her needs as my second child is also demanding.

My daughter has been throwing super tantrums every day. Her tantrum is the king of all tantrums. She seems to completely lose her mind. I gave her time out by putting her in a room alone. I was going to let her out after 4 min but there was no way she was calming down - she kept pounding the door, screaming and yelling. After 20mins, she calmed down a bit and kept begging to let her out saying that she would be good, etc. As soon as I got her out, she threw things on the floor. So she had to go back again. This pattern lasted a few times, and she ended up staying in the room for over an hour.

My husband had a week off so he kept taking her out of the house so I had alone time with the baby. Last night, I was lying in bed and getting worried about dealing with her and the baby for the rest of the week myself. And I realized that I'm almost afraid of her and resentful. I'm so ashamed to admit but I might be withdrawing love from her. Especially after a big tantrum, I feel that way and my husband feels the same. And the resentful feelings last a couple of days. Go ahead criticize me but that's how I feel. There is no sweet feeling towards her and I mostly see her as a problem that makes my life miserable. She rarely plays alone. She is so demanding, whiny and gets frustrated easily all the time. I'm so drained.
I don't enjoy her company and feel relived when she's gone. I am almost willing to pay for all day day care for her so that I don't have to deal with her most of the day. I feel like a failed parent.
I practiced attachment parenting when she was a baby by nursing her on demands, wearing her all the time, night nursing, cosleeping, etc. I never let her cry it out. Maybe because I used to meet her needs so promptly, she gets easily frustrated. Can attachment parenting make my child more dependent on me? But I don't know what went wrong. It could be that I might have been too lax in disciplining her. Or just it's her nature to be so rebellious and manipluative and willful and uncontrollable.

Do you think I need counseling? I feel awful to feel this way. Is there any parenting book you recommend? I read "raising your spirited child". She might be one and I got some tips dealing with her but I haven't really found solution to control her whining and tantrums and the way I feel about her. Please recommend books or provide me some advice before I try professional counseling.

[Heavenly]

The way you are feeling is normal, I felt the same way with the birth of my second child. First of all, yes, I do feel AP can make your child overly dependent on you. If I had to do it again I would practice modified AP because I think what people consider full-on AP is too draining on a mother. I think signing her up for preschool would be a great idea. And there is nothing wrong with day care either. She would probably have a blast and it would give you time to focus on the baby and feel rejuvinated by the time she gets home and ready to spend time with her. Do not let anyone make you feel guilty about wanting time away, it will not harm her at all. Other than make sure you force yourself to interact, to hug her and kiss her and be with her. Even when you are not feeling it all just force yourself to do it and the feelings will eventually come back. Make a point to spend at least half an hour a day in one and one time with her. You'll find she'll behave better for you if you give her the time before she demands it. Suggest that you play a game together or that she put on a puppet show for you while you nurse the baby. Make up a basket full of special toys and games that she can play with only while you nurse. A good DVD never hurt anyone either. Make a big deal about including her and also, talk to the baby about her. For example, "Baby you are SOOOOOO lucky! You have such an amazing big sister and she is such a wonderful helper." Ask her to help fetch you diapers, or a pacifier or a toy. It is a very difficult time, adding a second child. I found that to be the hardest transition in parenting. You just need to push through it and fake it til you make it. And remember if you are feeling overly emotional and depressed that it would be a good idea to talk to your doctor. PPD can really mess with your emotions as well. Good luck and don't be too hard on yourself!

[lolar2]

It's hard to tell-- you certainly sound overwhelmed-- but if you are in Canada, isn't she old enough for JK in any case? I don't think it would be a bad thing for you to enroll her if it helps with the overwhelm, especially with a baby as well. Maybe you'd have more sweet feelings towards her if you and she had a break from butting heads sometimes. Good luck! DS is 3 but I've heard some pretty harrowing things about 4-year-olds from other parents.

[homemademom]

I think it can be so hard when you have a new baby and still have to meet the needs of your other children. I'm actually getting nervous about our new baby coming next year because my youngest child is very demanding.

What I'm wondering is if you're getting out of the house each day. Is your older dd feeling bored? I know that my kids really need an outlet to blow off their energy, otherwise they can act like destructive little puppies!

Does she have friends that she can have playdates with, either at your house or a friend's house?

Does she enjoy play dough, reading stories, etc. I'm wondering if there are activities she can do with you next to her, but not necessarily participating. I bought 2 bags of marshmallows and a box of tooth picks last week and told my kids, "Build something!" It kept them busy for quite a while, lol.

Are you able to take some time perhaps when the baby is sleeping to focus JUST on her? Like just cuddling, reading, laughing, tickling? Even just 10 or 15 minutes of undivided attention really helps my youngest not to get so wound up and negative during the day.

Your feelings seem normal to me, normal like a postpartum, overwhelmed and tired mom are. Personally, I would address the issue of keeping your dd busy, getting her energy out in productive ways, and trying to focus on her for a short time. You might find that the behaviors resolve and then, you are able to be happier. Personally, I wouldn't worry about counseling right now. I think you sound really normal.

[sora]

I sleep very poorly. My baby wakes up every two hours at night. It can take two hours to put him back to sleep. I'm so exhausted. She does better when she goes out to the park. But with my baby napping so poorly outside the house, it's not always practical....

[Heavenly]

Originally Posted by sora

I sleep very poorly. My baby wakes up every two hours at night. It can take two hours to put him back to sleep. I'm so exhausted. She does better when she goes out to the park. But with my baby napping so poorly outside the house, it's not always practical....

It sounds like preschool or junior kindergarten would be a good idea. Or daycare. Then she will get the stimulation she needs and you will get the break you need. Seems like a win-win for everyone.

[ssh]

I've known a few people who sort of disconnect with their 3 or 4 year old when they also have a baby. I think it's because 3 and 4 year olds look older than they act. They are still very busy, noisy sometimes emotionally fragile little people and a lot of their normal behavior is very annoying. One of these people didn't really practice AP parenting with her 3.5 year old. She thinks that's why she's having her problems. It's just the combination of needy, emotional 3 or 4 year old, a baby and a overwhelmed mom. I don't think time outs are appropriate for outbursts because of overwhelming emotions. Getting punished for being upset or angry just makes a person more upset and angry. Your punishment is also causing a series of similar misbehavior it sounds like. Have you read the book Kids, Parents and Power Struggles by Mary Kurcinka? Also Playful Parenting is a good book too. I also recommend preschool. My almost 5 year old is very needy sometimes and has been having more anger lately. We calmly remind her to not be rude because she's angry and empathize over the issue. I have suggested she go to her room until she feels better, but have never made her.

I have noticed that when my DD does messy activities like painting, playing in water in the sink or playing in sand she has calmer days. The messy tactile play seems to help her deal with stress better.

[lilyka]

Originally Posted by sora

My daughter has been throwing super tantrums every day. Her tantrum is the king of all tantrums. She seems to completely lose her mind. I gave her time out by putting her in a room alone. I was going to let her out after 4 min but there was no way she was calming down - she kept pounding the door, screaming and yelling. After 20mins, she calmed down a bit and kept begging to let her out saying that she would be good, etc. As soon as I got her out, she threw things on the floor. So she had to go back again. This pattern lasted a few times, and she ended up staying in the room for over an hour.

As much as this sucked to deal with I think you did well and if you handle things consistently she will soon see that her tantrums get her no where. My childrens time outs did not begin until they had calmed down. if they threw a fit during any part of the time out they would start over. For my first and last it only took a couple of times. for my more demanding child it took about a year of handling things this way but she is much more in control now.

Originally Posted by sora

I was lying in bed and getting worried about dealing with her and the baby for the rest of the week myself. And I realized that I'm almost afraid of her and resentful. I'm so ashamed to admit but I might be withdrawing love from her. Especially after a big tantrum, I feel that way and my husband feels the same. And the resentful feelings last a couple of days. Go ahead criticize me but that's how I feel. There is no sweet feeling towards her and I mostly see her as a problem that makes my life miserable. She rarely plays alone. She is so demanding, whiny and gets frustrated easily all the time. I'm so drained.
I don't enjoy her company and feel relived when she's gone. I am almost willing to pay for all day day care for her so that I don't have to deal with her most of the day. I feel like a failed parent.

I think your feelings are very normal. I also think you can change her behaviors (especially the tantrumming and refusal to entertain herself) by consistently working on it. yes it will suck. yes it will be exhausting. yes she will throw hissy fits. You should first lose the guilt. It is not your fault she throws these tantrums. You do not need to feel bad about teaching your child to act civilized and to control themselves. I never apologize to my children for disciplining them. If they need correction I correct (without apology) and if they need some re reinforcement to help them remember next time I don't apologize or make a bog deal out of it. (when they were little it was mostly time out now it is mostly grounding from the computer or losing some related privileged. my biggest problems these days is lying and being lazy. and usually the lying is so they can be lazy. my hard child still has trouble controlling her tantrums and spends a lot of quality time in her room. but she chooses to go there now.) They will be happy to have these attributes we are building when they get older. Anyway, if you child is making you and your husband miserable then you don't need to feel guilty about feeling that way about her. but also don't be lazy in teaching her how to behave (I am not implying that you are. just saying, be very proactive in teaching your child how to behave). Also I know you want your child to play alone but I think now would be a good time to keep her by your side always. even if she is playing independently. You will be able to better watch her for signs that she is about to blow and address it before it gets out of hand. you will also be able to keep her engaged, proactively teaching her how to behave, how to handle stress etc. but I also understand your need for some time to yourself. Does she still take a nap? If not she might still need one. if not perhaps a couple of hours of quiet time in her room or on her bed is in order. (work up to this gradually.) I would let my kids get some toys, dolls, books, polly pockets (this is a great time for her to play with little things that are choking hazards to the baby but make sure it is stuff she can manipulate by herself.) whatever but they had to stay quiet, alone and in their rooms and on their bed during quiet time. it gave me a couple of hours to recharge.

Originally Posted by sora

I practiced attachment parenting when she was a baby by nursing her on demands, wearing her all the time, night nursing, cosleeping, etc. I never let her cry it out. Maybe because I used to meet her needs so promptly, she gets easily frustrated. Can attachment parenting make my child more dependent on me? But I don't know what went wrong. It could be that I might have been too lax in disciplining her. Or just it's her nature to be so rebellious and manipluative and willful and uncontrollable.

ya know, it doesn't matter where or how things went wrong or did not or how she turned out to be this way. You can teach her to cope with things better, have more self control be more respectful ...all of that. Forget about the past and start with today. What will you teach her today and how will you teach her? I say start with keeping her right where you can see her at all times. Moms little buddy. Tune into her. find out where the tantrums start (I know they probably seem to come out of no where but frustration and emotional pressure probably start building up quite a ways before or there may be some activities or things that trigger or patters that will emerge). I also am a huge fan of schedules for preschoolers and young children. A predictable life is comforting to them. It also helps alleviate the frustration and triggers of tantrums and melt downs.

Originally Posted by sora

Do you think I need counseling? I feel awful to feel this way. Is there any parenting book you recommend? I read "raising your spirited child". She might be one and I got some tips dealing with her but I haven't really found solution to control her whining and tantrums and the way I feel about her. Please recommend books or provide me some advice before I try professional counseling.

I do not think you need counseling. I think you are just fine. Perhaps though while you are dealing with getting everything in order a nice preschool program would be helpful. It would provide structure, social interaction and amusement for her and some time to recharge for you. It doesn't make you a bad parent. preschool is really really fun for a lot of kids. Its not just daycare. Also really just focus on the things you want to teach your child and how you want to teach them those things (social skills, coping skills, etc. I have not found those to be intuitive in my children. To get the results i have has taken a lot of really hands on parenting time. Not playing with them, and reading to them and being their personal entertainment committee. but I just kept them where I could see them and corrected unwanted bahviors immediately and proactively taught them what i wanted them to know about life and social interations and how to be. I also provided a good role modle for them. Not that I am a great role model but when I was they were there to see it Also having them right there made it easier for me to be 100% (or close to it) consistent. Which is critical to ending unwanted behaviors and making good behaviors the habit.

goos luck. it is a lot of work but it is so worth it. My kids are 7, 10 and 14. I took charge of things when they were 1, 4 and 8. it sucked. we didn't leave the house fun much for like a year. but I had a lot of bad habits and behaviors to address and just really needed to be tuned in to them. within a year we had had a total turn around (well, the baby was just easy since we started pretty much at birth). My 10 year old still struggles. But it is mostly her own struggle now to be the person she knows she wants to be. Its interesting to watch her take control of her her own habits, desires and discipline herself to reach her goals. (she is a different kind of kid altogether though.) My 14 year old doesn't really discipline herself but at least she takes me seriously when I tell her to get up and do her chores or stop whining. I'll take that.

[CarrieMF]

but if you are in Canada, isn't she old enough for JK in any case?

JK is only in 1 for sure, maybe 2 provinces. She could go to playschool or daycare. Some will be all day, some are only 2 hours long.

[Mosaic]

I totally hear you. I have a 4yo DD and had a new baby in April. As DH so perfectly put it, "Who knew the hardest thing about having a second baby would be dealing with the first?!" In the past 3 months, DD1 really raised the bar in terms of attitude, potential for trouble, and general disagreeableness (new word!). But I'll be honest: she gets into more trouble because I'm not watching her every second, she has more of an attitude because she has to shout over her screaming little sister, and she's generally disagreeable because she's not getting her daily allotment of hugs and snuggles.

Honestly, the turning point for ME was when DD was coming toward me while I was holding the baby and I flinched away, sure she was going to jump on me, hit me, or pull my hair AGAIN. But she was actually coming in for a hug, and I broke her heart by jerking away involuntarily, and then I had to really PUSH myself to hug her because she had been a total pickle all day and I really didn't want to.

There's nothing like a healthy dose of guilt to get me motivated. After that I gave up what I had been doing: trying to buckle down on discipline, redraw boundaries, blah blah blah; and instead I threw myself into falling in love with her again, finding the fun, adorable parts of this really challenging age. And there are lots to be found. She responded really positively to the attention, and we're getting back on track. It's even to the point where I yearn to spend more time with her again, and that's a nice feeling.

[Girlprof]

Have you heard the old joke? It's the terrible twos, but two times two is four. I think four is a much harder age than is generally appreciated. There's another name for four that isn't for saying in clean company, if you know what I mean.

I don't think you need counseling either, but, anyone who has had a baby as recently as you have and is considering counseling? You might want to talk to your doc or midwife about PPD. I would never want to dissuade someone with PPD from getting help because this is a very real problem that you really can get help with.

But with your baby not letting you get much sleep and your four year old making you crazy, no wonder you're feeling so bad. I would also say, find a preschool or daycare for the four year old. She's ready to hang out with some kids her own age for longer periods of time.

You are not a bad parent or a failed parent, you are just a tired parent, and no wonder. Can you get more help? Any in-laws or friends who can take one or both of the kids for an hour or two?

As for her tantrums, sounds to me like you did a great job helping her learn that tantrums are not the way to get what she wants. That's a tough lesson for many kids to learn and a really tough lesson for parents to teach, so you did a GREAT job.

[hbog]

Maybe reading this article will help you feel less alone:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/ar...ond-born.html#

hth

[lovingmommyhood]

You've gotten such amazing advice from everyone here. It's great to see all the support instead of criticism!! Like everyone else has said these are normal feelings. My three year old did two hours of preschool twice a week last year and he did FANTASTIC. It was a great way for him to be away from me a bit, yet not too much. He also got to be with friends and truthfully he needed a break from ME sometimes I think. Mommy can be a drag when she gets tired. I would highly recommend some sort of pre school. HUGS

[Caittune]

wow, I could have written the op. I've been feeling terrible because of it. Subbing so I can come back and read when I have a bit more time.

[Tigerle]

Sounds like what you need most urgently is SLEEP!

I will be in your shoes soon (well DS was high needs as a baby so I expect this little one might be too, and I KNOW Ds is going to have tantrum and aggression issues) and this time around, I think I will be much more unscrupulous in milking DH and extended family for all the help I can get. Last time, I ended up in hospital when DS was 7 months. no fun. And a lot more work for everyone involved!

I don't think there is a point in thinking about counseling before you've tried to involve anyone and everyone in order to catch up on some sleep. I know it sounds horribly difficult with your little one's nursing schedule but even an infant may have to put up with some inconvenience here - a bottle of EBF or if that's not feasible, someone sleeping with the little one for the night in another room just taking her in for nursing and disappearing for you to go back to sleep right away. A nap while someone else takes both to the park. Whatever, but you need to get yourself back - if you have a physical or mental breakdown it's going to be so much harder on everyone. trust me, I know.

I think all the other advice on spending time with your older daughter before she acts up, sending her to preschool etc is great, but you may need the sleep before you can get proactive on this.

And I wouldn't waste any energy in trying to implement timeouts by being a jailer for on hour. It's draining both of you emotionally, and might be making things worse (and know it would make things worse for my DS). Have you tried helping her find words for her frustration?

[RiverSky]

Originally Posted by sora

I sleep very poorly. My baby wakes up every two hours at night. It can take two hours to put him back to sleep. I'm so exhausted. She does better when she goes out to the park. But with my baby napping so poorly outside the house, it's not always practical....

Your baby will nap much better if she gets a bunch of fresh air, too, you know. I suggest you join a moms club (momsclub.org) or an API group asap and start going, at least 2 or 3 times a week. I think every single morning, you should take your children to the park from 10-12, preferably with friends or playgroup members or even by yourself. You can always switch things up with a membership to a local zoo or children's museum or indoor play center as well.

I think your 4 year old needs way more exercise, fresh air, friends, companionship, excitement, and activity in her week. With my children, both as babies and as toddlers/preschoolers, they ALWAYS had better naps, better bedtimes and better afternoons when we had a nice, long, active outing earlier that day. The bonus of having to organize ourselves in the morning so that we could go out for the day, is that when we got home, the house would be clean! I found it ended up being much less work to leave the house than to stay home, anyway.

I don't think time outs are an effective form of anything, not discipline, not parenting, and certainly not helping your daughter cope and be happier. She is already feeling pushed away by having a new baby in the house, and being isolated in her room is making everything worse (I think you know that).

I do also agree that she is probably having her "terrible 2s" right now (my son had them from 3-4 and wow, they were a doozy but everything was so much better on the days that we spent lots of time out of the house, engaged in activity, tuckering him right out). I also wonder if maybe you have a little bit of postpartum depression, and hope that by your becoming involved in a moms group, that you will feel better (as I did once I finally got around to becoming active in one) just having adult human contact, and then bit by bit, making some good friends. I also felt like it was such a break to sit on a park bench and chat with another mom, while we watched out children engaged with each other, playing actively in a safe, fenced playground.

I suggest reading some more great books:

Smart Love
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Sma...SRI=smart+love

Playful Parenting by Cohen
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Pla...yful+parenting

Siblings without Rivalry by Faber and Mazlish
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Sib...+your+children

are all great ones.

[Norasmomma]

Having a new baby and an older child is hard, I just went through a very trying time with my soon to be 4 year old. She has always been a pretty intense little girl. She is highly verbal and also just HIGH energy. I went through a few weeks where I simply didn't like being her mom, she was a PITA most of the time.

One thing that helped us was doing a reward chart, she gets a smiley face for doing the things we expect her to do, leave hands to yourself, put toys away etc.....it really helped. I think that your DD is needing some one on one attention from you, gosh I recently took DD to the store alone and left DS with dad napping and she did great, we went shopping at the thrift store, did some mommy/daughter stuff.

I've gone through many times feeling like this, my DD is a very big extroverted, super energy kid, worlds more active than most kids-she freaks many kids out because she is so friendly and wired, adults are always entertained by her because she is so outgoing.

Little children are draining, they just are, they need soooooo much and for me I now have 2 that are needy on the energy my baby is 10 months and now is becoming extremely active, so now my DD is getting easier and the baby is getting more toddler-ish which is a hard time for me, they are super active toddlers so it gets a bit crazy.

I am going to have my DD go to class once a week, currently that's all we can afford, but she can go socialize with some kids her age and get away from me, then I can also have one on one time with her brother. Winter is almost easier, in the summer it's hot, we go to the beach, but going to the park is hot. In the winter we downhill ski and it makes her sooooo happy, activities help us.

Good luck

[hotmamacita]

First of all, you ARE best for her. She needs your engaged and loving heart. If is wise for you to be honest, with other adults you trust, about how you feel and to seek wisdom.

I think she is lacking discipline and/or consequences for her actions. I do not know for sure...it is just a hunch. I think you are onto something when you pondered whether you are being too lax.

I cannot advocate being harsh or distant but a gentle, firm and consitent discipline at this age.

I have full confidence that you will navigate through this and guide her well. Continue to seek wise counsel and do not back off from her. She needs your heart and your guidance.

[Linda on the move]

lots of good stuff already.

It also sounds like your DD has some behavoir issues that tweaking discipline strategies *might* help. I think that sometimes when they drive us bonkers to the point we can't stand having them around, we can use it to modify our parenting in ways that are helpful to our kids.

Having a second child can really bring issues to the front, and force us to deal with them without enough sleep. I'm so sorry you are going through this.

You might post on the GD board for specific things to try to work on the whinning and tantrums.

But cut yourself some slack. Being annoyed and frustrated with our children is normal. Wanting and needing a break is normal. Kids acting out after the birth of a sibling is normal.

You aren't crazy or bad or anything, you are just really, really tired.

[EdnaMarie]

Originally Posted by Heavenly

The way you are feeling is normal, I felt the same way with the birth of my second child. First of all, yes, I do feel AP can make your child overly dependent on you. If I had to do it again I would practice modified AP because I think what people consider full-on AP is too draining on a mother. I think signing her up for preschool would be a great idea. And there is nothing wrong with day care either. She would probably have a blast and it would give you time to focus on the baby and feel rejuvinated by the time she gets home and ready to spend time with her. Do not let anyone make you feel guilty about wanting time away, it will not harm her at all. Other than make sure you force yourself to interact, to hug her and kiss her and be with her. Even when you are not feeling it all just force yourself to do it and the feelings will eventually come back. Make a point to spend at least half an hour a day in one and one time with her. You'll find she'll behave better for you if you give her the time before she demands it. Suggest that you play a game together or that she put on a puppet show for you while you nurse the baby. Make up a basket full of special toys and games that she can play with only while you nurse. A good DVD never hurt anyone either. Make a big deal about including her and also, talk to the baby about her. For example, "Baby you are SOOOOOO lucky! You have such an amazing big sister and she is such a wonderful helper." Ask her to help fetch you diapers, or a pacifier or a toy. It is a very difficult time, adding a second child. I found that to be the hardest transition in parenting. You just need to push through it and fake it til you make it. And remember if you are feeling overly emotional and depressed that it would be a good idea to talk to your doctor. PPD can really mess with your emotions as well. Good luck and don't be too hard on yourself!

I agree with this, especially:

-Pre-school. What's wrong with that? Some kids LOVE to be around large groups and other kids. Two hours, three or five, it's worth a try!

-Getting outdoors. Screw dinner. I mean entirely. I would not want to do that, but I have done it all summer (another PB&J, anyone? more crock-pot overcooked soup?) so that we can be at the park. The ONLY time we can go is in the afternoon. Can you choose the one two-hour block baby is mostly awake and take them and just let her go wild? Try to find a park that's busy with other kids she can take her energy out on.

We literally drive around to find the other kids. The park I found that is almost always full is great, because it happens to be where a bunch of other parents of high-needs or high-energy or just plain extroverted kids live. They understand me, and it's great!

My own child is three and nearly four. I think if I kept her in all day I would have jumped out the window by now. And I really mean that, if not literally, I would have had to... I don't know. I just don't think as a person I could take it. She LOVES her pre-school (sadly, the session's over) and she LOVES her park time.

True, we eat far, far too many canned green beans and I haven't baked in two weeks, but at least we are alive, if only barely, LOL!

I don't think time outs are appropriate for outbursts because of overwhelming emotions.

Some children can't calm down when they are around other people. Physically, their brain doesn't do it. Actually, by "children", I mean "people", and I am one of them. I NEED to be away from people to calm down. So I wouldn't assume it's a punishment.

Also some mothers NEED to be away from people who are hitting, throwing hard things at them, and kicking.

Sometimes, time-out is not a punishment, it is just necessary to physically separate two people who are apparently irritating one another and/or threatening one another's safety.

Lucky you if that never happened to you.