IGT and second-time mamas

[lyterae]

I have suspected IGT - like many others I was on fenugreek, blessed thistle, reglan, oatmeal, pumping,etc.. with basically no change in output.

I'm expecting again and I'm curious what kind of milk increase (if any) I will see this time around. I've been surprised to have a lot of breast tenderness this time around and there has been some growth, I've noticed more "fullness" if nothing else. These changes did not occur last time.

I am planning on taking alfalfa during my pregnancy(I'm almost 12 weeks and I've delayed due to morning sickness) and adding in goats rue toward the end, I'm just not sure how much of a supply I should be expecting.

[ILoveMyBabyBird]

http://www.mobimotherhood.org/MM/article-lms.aspx

scroll down to the bottom it talks about bfing 2nd and 3rd children. I too had to supplement my ds and I am reading that a lot of things could have led to it, eventhough i thought that it was probably igt, i also had pitocin and the iv drip for many hours prior to birth. My milk did not want to come in and i had to supplement ds starting day 9 due to dehydration. I am wondering if there is anything that can be done prior to giving birth, (have a long time, just 4 weeks now) but I want so badly to be successful this time around, but also worry about not being able to produce enough. I think the main thing for me is trying to avoid all medical intervention, don't go to the hosipital so early this time. Just wondering if there is food i can eat now while developing or massages or something that isn't harmful to do while pregnant but may benefit the breast tissue.

do you know how much you produced last time around? I know i ended up making about 50-60% of ds needs after i almost quit but tried to get the nursing relationship back when he was about 2 months. I was also using a hospital grade pump during that time. I think for me, if igt is the problem I am hoping for 60-75% this time around and if igt wasn't and it was lots of factors that won't happen this time around, I am hoping for 75-100%. I did go on to nurse my ds for 28 months and was still able to express a couple drops for my bigger producer even up until now (ds is now 4), so i am hoping that is a good sign and that means that my breasts have formed more connections and there will be less supply issues or no supply issues this time...I also plan to measure them monthly to see if they grow much or not, (they didn't grow a whole lot last time, maybe 1/2cup) but i think that may be something to let a lactation consultant know, b/c lack of grow is normally not a good sign from what i've read)

[sonrisa]

Hi....I'm so happy to see this post. I am 22 weeks pregnant with #2. I too may have a mild case of hypoplasia. I was told this by my IBCLC. With DD we did a lot to breastfeed and lasted 17 months. I started with the SNS, from there moved on to Domperidone, which really boosted my supply. During this time I was also taking load of fenugreek, which really didn't work, and some mother love herbs which did help, more milk plus and goat's rue. At 8 months pp, I did a full blood panel (new insurance) and was diagnosed with Hashimotos thyroiditis, my tsh was in the 30's really high. Now this could have been the reason for low to no supply. We don't know.

SO here I am praying that it was my thyroid and now that it is medicated I will have NO supply issues. I am still keeping in mind the mild case of hypoplasia, and some nights I spend too much time looking at the 007 site and looking in the mirror, but we have to prepare RIGHT.

So to prepare, I will talk with my midwives about taking goats rue the last trimester. ALso, I was told by my IBCLC that the work I put into creating more mammary tissue last time, will be rewarding this time. With DD, she was born in the birth center, unmedicated birth, so I will do similar to that this time (hoping that my birth ideas are the same as the baby's). I am planning a home birth.

I also see an endocronologist regularly, so I will talk to him about testing my prolactin levels. Will talk to him this week.

I look at Jack Newmans site often! I wish I could see him. In fact, I may try to email again. He responded back in 06, so we will see.

I wish more people knew about IGT. I remember talking about it at a LLL meeting, and nobody was aware of it at all.

I appreciate this post and want to continue to talk about IGT, as we prepare to have our second children.

Thank you!

[sonrisa]

Thanks for the great link!!!

[lyterae]

Last time around we figured that I produced about .5-1 ounce a feeding (with lots of help). I was on fenugreek, blessed thistle, reglan, plus pumping and using an SNS. DD was staying hydrated but not gaining weight… We were all miserable, she was crying and hungry all of the time and I spent all of my time nursing or pumping. Eventually I ended up with PPD and my milk completely dried up at 3 months. During all of my nursing troubles I also saw a IBCLC who as assisting with increasing my little supply and diagnosed me with suspected hypoplasia/IGT.

I recently read Making More Milk by Diana West and she has suggestions for herbs to take during pregnancy to help increase glandular tissue. Here is my current plan :

Take alfalfa as soon as I can start keeping pills down (I’m almost 13 weeks and haven’t hit that point yet)
Add in goats rue around 34 weeks
Rent a hospital pump and a baby scale to track weight gain
get a lact-aid to use and have formula or donated milk on hand
Start Dom at 4 days postpartum

My daughter was born via c-section so I’m hoping that with my HBAC it will also increase my odds of a better nursing relationship. I feel more prepared this time around that there could be problems and I fully intend on nursing for a full year regardless of what supply I can get, I would just be ecstatic to be able to nurse exclusively. My midwife has mentioned that she may have mothers who can donate milk at that time to us to help as we work on getting a supply.

This time around I have noticed some breast changes which didn't happen last time so I'm hopeful that we have a better "chance" this time around.

[sonrisa]

Lyterae- You have a great plan. I need to learn more about the alfalfa sprouts; I will check with my midwife at the end of the month. I too plan on doing the goats rue. I think the work that you invested with your dd will help you this time around. I think planning a HBAC will definitely help with the nursing. Just being as educated and determined as you are will help.

I used an SNS with DD. To be honest, i am not sure if I will again. I may try the lactaid, sounds a little bit easier. I am just not sure if I want to do any of that again, but I am not holding a newborn, so I am sure that will change things too. I am hoping to be able to exclusively breastfeed, too.

I think I will rent a hospital grade pump, but not a scale unless needed. We had a scale for about 3 months with DD and became a little obsessed. I will try to be a little more relaxed and more confident this time (hopefully .

At this point I do not think I will take domperidone this time. I gained about 60 pounds PP, which I feel as a lot to do with dom, and I just cannot do that again. I know that may sound a bit selfish, but being too overweight can be dangerous.

I really am learning a lot by talking about IGT. Thank you for sharing information.

Congratulations on your pregnancy!! Hope the morning sickness disappears!!!

BTW, do you have any thyroid issues?

[lyterae]

Originally Posted by sonrisa

I used an SNS with DD. To be honest, i am not sure if I will again. I may try the lactaid, sounds a little bit easier. I am just not sure if I want to do any of that again, but I am not holding a newborn, so I am sure that will change things too. I am hoping to be able to exclusively breastfeed, too.

I think I will rent a hospital grade pump, but not a scale unless needed. We had a scale for about 3 months with DD and became a little obsessed. I will try to be a little more relaxed and more confident this time (hopefully .


BTW, do you have any thyroid issues?

I used an SNS as well and it looks like the lact-aid might be easier. I'm planning on needing to supplement early on and I'd like to avoid bottles the first few weeks at least.

I can understand the obsession.. with DD we waited to long to get on top of the fact that she wasn't gaining weight and it really hurt us all, I'm hoping to track early on so I can eathier a.) relax or b.) start supplementing if needed.

I've had my thyroid checked numerous times over the past few years (chronic fatigue) and everything is "fine". I do need to start some iron supplementation though as that is usually low for me.

[bucketybuckety]

Originally Posted by lyterae

I have suspected IGT - like many others I was on fenugreek, blessed thistle, reglan, oatmeal, pumping,etc.. with basically no change in output.

I'm expecting again and I'm curious what kind of milk increase (if any) I will see this time around. I've been surprised to have a lot of breast tenderness this time around and there has been some growth, I've noticed more "fullness" if nothing else. These changes did not occur last time.

I am planning on taking alfalfa during my pregnancy(I'm almost 12 weeks and I've delayed due to morning sickness) and adding in goats rue toward the end, I'm just not sure how much of a supply I should be expecting.

Wow, this is the first recent link I've found about IGT. I think I have IGT, I am 2 weeks PP with #2 and my daughter is only getting about .33 oz per feeding, based on weighings with an LC. I noticed more tenderness and fullness during my second pregnancy, too, but am not noticing much of an increase in supply PP. I am taking fenugreek and blessed thistle, but it hasn't seemed to help. With baby #1, I took Reglan and was seriously depressed, plus no increase in supply. Hope things go better for you this time around, feel free to ask me any questions.

[germin8]

Originally Posted by ILoveMyBabyBird

... Just wondering if there is food i can eat now while developing or massages or something that isn't harmful to do while pregnant but may benefit the breast tissue...

Wild yam, egg yolk, and chicken. But, I can't find the link where I read this. These foods somehow increase progesterone (or something) which help increase glandular tissue.

*gasp* I just googled and read about eating the placenta. I had heard women that do this and even get capsules made out of the placenta... now I know why! It has progesterone. Hmmmm, something to think about!

I've been curious about maca and posted about it here:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...php?p=15761024

[lyterae]

Originally Posted by germin8

Wild yam, egg yolk, and chicken. But, I can't find the link where I read this. These foods somehow increase progesterone (or something) which help increase glandular tissue.

*gasp* I just googled and read about eating the placenta. I had heard women that do this and even get capsules made out of the placenta... now I know why! It has progesterone. Hmmmm, something to think about!

I've been curious about maca and posted about it here:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...php?p=15761024

I don't know how progesterone and milk supply are related, can you give me more info? I was already planning on placenta encapsulation due to depression tendencies, I wasn't aware it could help my milk supply though.

[lyterae]

Originally Posted by bucketybuckety

Wow, this is the first recent link I've found about IGT. I think I have IGT, I am 2 weeks PP with #2 and my daughter is only getting about .33 oz per feeding, based on weighings with an LC. I noticed more tenderness and fullness during my second pregnancy, too, but am not noticing much of an increase in supply PP. I am taking fenugreek and blessed thistle, but it hasn't seemed to help. With baby #1, I took Reglan and was seriously depressed, plus no increase in supply. Hope things go better for you this time around, feel free to ask me any questions.

I used the reglan last time as well and I will be avoiding it at all costs. I am considering getting some dom to have on hand to start this time around.

Have you considered using goats rue? I haven't personally tried it yet, I have heard good things though.

[germin8]

Originally Posted by lyterae

I don't know how progesterone and milk supply are related, can you give me more info? I was already planning on placenta encapsulation due to depression tendencies, I wasn't aware it could help my milk supply though.

I've been googling with various search words to find a cause/cure for IGT. I don't know if that's what I have, but I'm reading "everything" about low milk supply. That's when I ran into these sites:

In the breast, the glandular cells are responsible for milk production. Normally there is an increase in glandular tissue growth during both puberty and pregnancy, especially the first eight weeks of pregnancy. This growth is in response to stimulation by progesterone.
http://www.noteveryonecanbreastfeed.com/

There are only a few natural food sources of progesterone...
http://www.ehow.com/facts_4812071_fo...gesterone.html

Then I ran into this one that mentions the placenta.
Unfortunately no 'food' contains progesterone, as you can see from my reply below, it's an animal hormone. The only way you could get any from eating 'food' is by eating the placenta that comes away after birth!
http://www.progesteronetherapy.com/f...gesterone.html

Progesterone stimulates the growth of the glandular tissue in breasts during pregnancy
http://www.007b.com/breast_size_breastfeeding.php

Hope that helps.

P.S. Check into maca. It helps regulate hormones; although, I think it is not recommended during pregnancy. I can't say that it works... since I haven't found much info on it, but it caught my attention. I figure we need progesterone for the glandular tissue, prolactin to produce milk, and oxytocin for the let-down. All hormones!

[ILoveMyBabyBird]

Originally Posted by lyterae

I recently read Making More Milk by Diana West and she has suggestions for herbs to take during pregnancy to help increase glandular tissue. Here is my current plan :

Take alfalfa as soon as I can start keeping pills down (I’m almost 13 weeks and haven’t hit that point yet)
Add in goats rue around 34 weeks
Rent a hospital pump and a baby scale to track weight gain
get a lact-aid to use and have formula or donated milk on hand
Start Dom at 4 days postpartum

how much alfalfa do you plan to take? I need to read that book! I did rent a hospital pump with my ds, but i am wondering if a good electric one would work well too? I rented it for 3 months and it ended up costing about 150$, I don't really enjoy pumping, but will do it, i know it will be more difficult as i have a 4 year old and a newborn to care for this time. I get so nervous about having the formula around, but i think i will definitely have 1 can just in case, I don't want to have to scramble around and go shopping for it last minute or end up at the peds office and them threatening and iv for the next lo like i had happen with ds. I figure i'll have 1 can and if i need to get more i will just order online...

On a positive note, my breasts are definitely filling out, I was going to measure them monthly but just checked and the bust is already up 2/3" in a week so that is good news! I'm about 5 1/2 weeks preggo, so this is when most the growth occurs, hoping for more growth the next couple weeks!

weird thing about the mention of eggs and chicken being good for progesterone/breast growth as i am craving those things, along with plain yogurt, don't know if it helps but it sure can't hurt.

[sonrisa]

How is everyone? So..it seems as if there are 3 moms expecting number 2, and 2 moms that have given birth to number 2.

As a mom due in December, I have been researching quite a bit about IGT, and just want to thank everyone for their experiences, insights, and research. I loved the research article by Ellen S. Petok, BS, IBCLC and 2 others about IGT, and being that I am in California (long way from her office) I may try to have a phone consultation. I just want to know if I do have IGT, or if it was my thyroid that created my super low supply issues.

I am kind of stuck right now, as I just WANT to know what will happen. I wish someone had the answer. WILL I 100% BREASTFEED or will I HAVE TO SUPPLEMENT? I have been told and know that any breastmilk is better than none, and that there is more to breastfeeding than just breastmilk, but I don't want that I just want to breastfeed with no interference.

I dont know if others feel this way at times, but I thank you for listening to me (somedays I am definitely more positive about what my breastfeeding outcome may be, I have a MW appointment tomorrow and plan to talk about starting goats rue at 34 weeks, and placenta encapsulation). Thanks again ladies.

[lyterae]

Originally Posted by sonrisa

I am kind of stuck right now, as I just WANT to know what will happen. I wish someone had the answer. WILL I 100% BREASTFEED or will I HAVE TO SUPPLEMENT? I have been told and know that any breastmilk is better than none, and that there is more to breastfeeding than just breastmilk, but I don't want that I just want to breastfeed with no interference.

I dont know if others feel this way at times, but I thank you for listening to me (somedays I am definitely more positive about what my breastfeeding outcome may be, I have a MW appointment tomorrow and plan to talk about starting goats rue at 34 weeks, and placenta encapsulation). Thanks again ladies.

I'm in much the same boat right now, I wish I knew how it was going to work out.. I'm hesitant to even plan on buying nursing bras/tops at this point in time. I do feel that I'm much better prepared than last time and it won't end up being a critical issue(again) if I have supply issues. It is strange to be preparing for a birth keeping in mind that I need to have nipples,bottles,formula on hand as well as my pump, lact-aid,herbs and possibly dom. I'm praying that something will click this time around and everything will work together to give me a milk supply.

[ILoveMyBabyBird]

Igt and supply issues is quickly becoming my latest research project. I went ahead and purchased "making more milk" to read. It was when ds was born too, but this i feel like i am more prepared and want to learn as much as possible before i even deliver. So for those that have hospital births are you mentioning your past problems or not? I hate to say i supplemented ds b/c then they may try to push formula,but then i would really like the support from a l/c too. I know that the first couple days babies don't need much milk anyway, but I am just wondering about how to handle that situation. I keep hoping for morning sickness! I read that it is caused a lot by progesterone and that it is needed to from the glandular tissue in pregnancy, so i am hoping for some good nausea. I had it mildly with ds. I have my first appt. with the midwife and i plan to get my blood numbers from when they tested my blood back in june when i was having headaches to see what my hormone levels were then, they said they were normal, but i am curious to see if they were high normal or low normal. i had suspected thyriod, anemia or PCOS, but they said the levels were okay so I am curious to see what okay was then, as those all are factors that could affect supply.

I will definitely be breastfeeding again, just hoping not to supplement. AT this point i am hoping that it is a singleton as I think i would have to nix the breastfeeding if there were 2 babies i don't think i could set myself up for that mentally. But i don't have reason to suspect 2. I know that if i do have to supplement my family won't think anything of it since i supplemented ds, actually most probably think i should just forget breastfeeding all together since i didn't make enough last time.

[lyterae]

Originally Posted by ILoveMyBabyBird

Igt and supply issues is quickly becoming my latest research project. I went ahead and purchased "making more milk" to read. It was when ds was born too, but this i feel like i am more prepared and want to learn as much as possible before i even deliver. So for those that have hospital births are you mentioning your past problems or not? I hate to say i supplemented ds b/c then they may try to push formula,but then i would really like the support from a l/c too. I know that the first couple days babies don't need much milk anyway, but I am just wondering about how to handle that situation. I keep hoping for morning sickness! I read that it is caused a lot by progesterone and that it is needed to from the glandular tissue in pregnancy, so i am hoping for some good nausea. I had it mildly with ds. I have my first appt. with the midwife and i plan to get my blood numbers from when they tested my blood back in june when i was having headaches to see what my hormone levels were then, they said they were normal, but i am curious to see if they were high normal or low normal. i had suspected thyriod, anemia or PCOS, but they said the levels were okay so I am curious to see what okay was then, as those all are factors that could affect supply.

I will definitely be breastfeeding again, just hoping not to supplement. AT this point i am hoping that it is a singleton as I think i would have to nix the breastfeeding if there were 2 babies i don't think i could set myself up for that mentally. But i don't have reason to suspect 2. I know that if i do have to supplement my family won't think anything of it since i supplemented ds, actually most probably think i should just forget breastfeeding all together since i didn't make enough last time.

I have talked to my midwife about my problems last time because I'm planning on taking the alfalfa and goats rue during pregnancy and wanted to make sure she agreed. She has also mentioned being able to help me locate donor milk at that time. I called an IBCLC about a year ago to ask how long I could wait to start supplementation, and I think my current plan is to nurse exclusively until my milk comes in(or day 4) also pumping and tracking diapers and weighing baby and decide if I need to start supplementing using a lact-aid.

sonrisa - I went and found that study, "Markers of Lactation Insufficiency" and actually it's kind of exciting, in thier study 39% went on to have a full supply. That's hopeful for me at this point in time, especially to have a study. I've unfortunately talked to many lactation consultants who have no idea what IGT is. Based on thier breast types table can I ask what "type" you are? Mine are markedly different, I'd say one is a Type 2 and one is Type 3. I think I have at least a 2" gap...

[sonrisa]

Hi...I definitely think I am type 2. I contacted my IBCLC and asked her how I measure the intra mammary gap, so I will let you all know as soon as I do. I have a copy of this research article for tomorrow when I see my MW's, and I hope to get their opinion too. This might be a little too much information, but my breasts look more like type 1 with a bigger intra mammary gap when my nipples are hard (not sure what PC term to use here?) and more like type 2 when they are soft, so....?????

LYTERAE----Did you notice a difference in milk production between breasts??

Ilovemybabybird---You mentioned that morning sickness can mean an increase in progesterone? I was not aware of this, and come to think of it I was not nauseated with DD (but things were quite different too) but was with this pregnancy till 16 weeks (thought it might be a sex difference, but we are having another girl, so that idea is ruled out). Well glad to know!

You know everyone labors with child rearing. My labor was breastfeeding with DD. My birth was fast and intense but I accomplished a non-medicated waterbirth, my pregnancy with dd was emotional and hard mentally but not physically like this one has been.

Well between the three of us....I'll go first and I will keep you posted on how it goes. I would like to stay in contact with anyone on this thread, with anyone who had low milk supply, because I have learned so much in the last four years!!

[lyterae]

Originally Posted by sonrisa

Hi...I definitely think I am type 2. I contacted my IBCLC and asked her how I measure the intra mammary gap, so I will let you all know as soon as I do. I have a copy of this research article for tomorrow when I see my MW's, and I hope to get their opinion too. This might be a little too much information, but my breasts look more like type 1 with a bigger intra mammary gap when my nipples are hard (not sure what PC term to use here?) and more like type 2 when they are soft, so....?????

LYTERAE----Did you notice a difference in milk production between breasts??
Well between the three of us....I'll go first and I will keep you posted on how it goes. I would like to stay in contact with anyone on this thread, with anyone who had low milk supply, because I have learned so much in the last four years!!

Will you share how your IBCLC said to measure? I'd like to confirm that I'm doing it right. That's not TMI.. for me I'd say that my type 2 looks more normal but it isn't as full towards the center, while my type 3 is lacking fullness(roundness) on the bottom and in the middle.

I honestly don't remember much of a difference between the two, I remember it was significantly easier to get her to latch onto the left side(type 2) rather than the right.

Sonrisa - Have you noticed breast changes this time? Last time I had very little change, this time around right away I noticed that things seem to "fill" out and firm up if that makes sense. DH says they are bigger, I'm not sure if they are or if it's just that they seem to be fuller again.

[sonrisa]

Hi....

So to measure your intra mammary space...you take a ruler and measure from the base of one breast to the base of the other. It is the space between the breasts where your cleavage begins. Hope that helps.

I have noticed breast changes this time around mostly in the first trimester, nothing recently, which makes me a little nervous, but I must remember some is better than none. I hope and pray to leak a little

Also, I spoke with another IBCLC, and she too recommends having my prolactin levels tested 2 days after birth. The level should jump to 200 and something. she also spoke of prolactin receptor sites and having enough of those, there is no way to measure the amount of prolactin receptor sites, I'm hoping that the work I put in with DD created more sites.

I like that we are all sharing what we are learning as second time moms. I feel much more prepared!