hmm the moringa sounds promising, and yet another herb originating from India, wonder if we can find it at the Indian grocery. How much should be a taken a day? Not too fond of the possibility of it increasing my weight, but it looks like something I may want to try...
well i decided to buy some moringa, but i bought the loose powder, i bought it off amazon, 14 oz for 19.xx plus shipping so not too bad of a price, it is much cheaper than the pills, i am just hoping it isn't too bad to eat, sounds like it doesn't have a bad taste from what i've read at least, and can be used as a tea, so that is good. I won't be starting it until after dd is born i imagine as i am due today! And it will take a week for it to get here, hopefully sooner, but I've read up on the research and it definitely looks promising, i would have loved to find it a month or two ago so i could have taken it during pregnancy, but from what i've read, it also helps after birth, and i will be starting it pretty close to giving birth so I hope it helps and I will keep you all updated!
http://www.moringanews.org/documents/LivestProd.pdf
study pertains to cattle, but interesting nonetheless.
girls I have bad news: I discussed yesterday with a very competent LC and her oppinion about goat's rue and other plants we are taking is that the only thing they do is to OPTIMIZE what we have. No plant can grow mammary tissue is like trying to grow a leg or a bone it will not happen. Her oppinion is that we deserve the gold medal for what we are doing and is our duty to try to OPTIMIZE and do our best. Yes goat's rue and feenugreek and alfalfa are very good for IGT and they will make our brteasts work at full capacity but never grow tissue to reach a full supply. She gave me a lot of hope saying that after 5 - 6 months it will be easier and we will enter normality. She also gave me a hospital grade pump and indees I saw a difference from the manual pump it worths all the money. I was able to express AFTER DD nursed 20 ml more total from both breasts. And last night instead of 50 ml I pumped 60. I am curios how it will work and I have the pump for 6 days and see how it will optimize my output. yes the hospital grade pump really makes a difference
I also wanted to ask you if when taking goat's rue or fenugreek you noticed loose stools in the baby. Stools with mucus...... I don't like it.
girls I have bad news: I discussed yesterday with a very competent LC and her oppinion about goat's rue and other plants we are taking is that the only thing they do is to OPTIMIZE what we have. No plant can grow mammary tissue is like trying to grow a leg or a bone it will not happen. Her oppinion is that we deserve the gold medal for what we are doing and is our duty to try to OPTIMIZE and do our best. Yes goat's rue and feenugreek and alfalfa are very good for IGT and they will make our brteasts work at full capacity but never grow tissue to reach a full supply. She gave me a lot of hope saying that after 5 - 6 months it will be easier and we will enter normality. She also gave me a hospital grade pump and indees I saw a difference from the manual pump it worths all the money. I was able to express AFTER DD nursed 20 ml more total from both breasts. And last night instead of 50 ml I pumped 60. I am curios how it will work and I have the pump for 6 days and see how it will optimize my output. yes the hospital grade pump really makes a difference
I also wanted to ask you if when taking goat's rue or fenugreek you noticed loose stools in the baby. Stools with mucus...... I don't like it.
Thank you for the information, I'm impressed you are able to pump so much!
Update on us : Ben is almost 8 weeks old and almost 12 lbs. He takes about 20 ounces of formula a day (we are using bottles) and nurses about 8 times in 24 hrs. We are back to being able to just nurse overnight. He takes a bottle around 9pm and then doesn't take another until about 6am. It's nice to just be able to nurse through the night. My supply is still somewhere around 6 ounces a day, but we are accepting that breastfeeding looks different for us. He still smells "good" - not as good as he did when he was solely on breastmilk but his smell hasn't completely changed and that makes me happy.
do you give a full bottle as a meal or you nurse and then supplement?
today the mother who is donating milk to me came in and she pumped with my hospital grade pump in front of my eyes: it was so frustrating as I was very happy for extracting 10ml after a nurse and she just showed me how a normal woman pumps in 10 minutes 160 ml from one single breast. And this is normality as a meal for a 4 month old is 1 breast every 3 hrs with 150 ml. I am making 70 ml from 2 breasts every 3 hrs......... very dissapointing.
do you give a full bottle as a meal or you nurse and then supplement?
today the mother who is donating milk to me came in and she pumped with my hospital grade pump in front of my eyes: it was so frustrating as I was very happy for extracting 10ml after a nurse and she just showed me how a normal woman pumps in 10 minutes 160 ml from one single breast. And this is normality as a meal for a 4 month old is 1 breast every 3 hrs with 150 ml. I am making 70 ml from 2 breasts every 3 hrs......... very dissapointing.
oh that would be very frustrating, i don't think i could watch someone else pump a normal amount, that would depress me too much...
As for the IGT growth, I don't know for sure, some people have reported actual growth, it is just that it is not very common, the herbs don't always work on everyone, I do think that my left side has had more growth this pregnancy than last, but that is probably due to breastfeeding my first and probably less from taking alfalfa.
Thank you for the information, I'm impressed you are able to pump so much!
Update on us : Ben is almost 8 weeks old and almost 12 lbs. He takes about 20 ounces of formula a day (we are using bottles) and nurses about 8 times in 24 hrs. We are back to being able to just nurse overnight. He takes a bottle around 9pm and then doesn't take another until about 6am. It's nice to just be able to nurse through the night. My supply is still somewhere around 6 ounces a day, but we are accepting that breastfeeding looks different for us. He still smells "good" - not as good as he did when he was solely on breastmilk but his smell hasn't completely changed and that makes me happy.
that is good news you are no longer supplementing at night. I remember stopping supplementing at night around 10-12 weeks and it just made the whole supplementing/breastfeeding so much easier. I hope to not have to supplement at night this time, or at least just once a night, but still waiting on baby to arrive so i am still unsure on how everything will pan out. I do have formula on hand and I got some of the individual rtf bottles for the first weeks, they are 8 oz each and can be refridgerated for 48 hours so i figured those would be way easier than messing with the powder in the starting like i had to do with ds and i can just offer 1 ounce at a time without there being too much waste.
girls I have bad news: I discussed yesterday with a very competent LC and her oppinion about goat's rue and other plants we are taking is that the only thing they do is to OPTIMIZE what we have. No plant can grow mammary tissue is like trying to grow a leg or a bone it will not happen. Her oppinion is that we deserve the gold medal for what we are doing and is our duty to try to OPTIMIZE and do our best. Yes goat's rue and feenugreek and alfalfa are very good for IGT and they will make our brteasts work at full capacity but never grow tissue to reach a full supply. She gave me a lot of hope saying that after 5 - 6 months it will be easier and we will enter normality. She also gave me a hospital grade pump and indees I saw a difference from the manual pump it worths all the money. I was able to express AFTER DD nursed 20 ml more total from both breasts. And last night instead of 50 ml I pumped 60. I am curios how it will work and I have the pump for 6 days and see how it will optimize my output. yes the hospital grade pump really makes a difference
I also wanted to ask you if when taking goat's rue or fenugreek you noticed loose stools in the baby. Stools with mucus...... I don't like it.
see here is the thing that i have been finding confusing and i gather you may feel the same way as you seem to be able to make a decent amount of milk, it is just not being made fast enough. with my first there were times when i supplementing at night in the beginning and ds was not wanting the breast, this was when i nearly weaned. So i would go 8 hours without breastfeeding at night or pumping until morning. When I would wake i pumped and I would get 2-3 ounces, mostly from one side, but my point is that my breast could hold 2-3 ounces in capacity, so how do i get the breast to make the milk more quickly? It's not that the tissue isn't there, it is that it doesn't work fast enough...I never have found much information on how to make milk faster, but if there was some information on that, than perhaps we could increase our supply. I know everyone says nurse more frequently, but what if there is something wrong with our brain messages to make the milk faster, i don't know, i am just exploring some more options.
That is exactly how I felt. If my breasts can hold 8oz total at my max pumping, how do I get my body to make more milk! I couldn't consistently get 8 oz every time I pumped; I only got that at a certain time of day & after 4 hours from previous pump session. I was on dom so I know my prolactin levels (what makes the milk) were high (I had them tested). I didn't get my oxytocin tested; that let's the milk down. So, I don't know what it was.
Yes, there isn't enough info! I still think it's a hormonal/endocrine issue.
I'd like to know the responses you get, ILoveMyBabyBird.
Just googled and learned something new from KellyMom: On the walls of the lactocytes (milk-producing cells of the alveoli) are prolactin receptor sites that allow the prolactin in the blood stream to move into the lactocytes and stimulate the synthesis of breastmilk components. (http://www.kellymom.com/bf/supply/milkproduction.html)
I was thinking the same thing: Why at night I get 2 oz and during day1 and a half? why I have the capacity of 3 oz after 6 - 8 hrs and make only 2 oz after 3 hrs? I was also thinking avbout the prolactin levels and I am on dom too, maybe I need more dom? maybe there are 2 different things BREAST STORAGE and BREAST WORK INTENSITY?
maybe our small amount of tissue cannot work at full capacity all the time? - is the same like you cannot run all the time , you also need to walk and sometimes to rest? and women with normal tissue simply have enough to run, walk and stay and still maintain a decent production, probably when you have enough tissue the cells can work in shifts?:):):)
This is the specific question I will ask my LC on tuesday as she seems competent.
That is exactly how I felt. If my breasts can hold 8oz total at my max pumping, how do I get my body to make more milk! I couldn't consistently get 8 oz every time I pumped; I only got that at a certain time of day & after 4 hours from previous pump session. I was on dom so I know my prolactin levels (what makes the milk) were high (I had them tested). I didn't get my oxytocin tested; that let's the milk down. So, I don't know what it was.
Yes, there isn't enough info! I still think it's a hormonal/endocrine issue.
I'd like to know the responses you get, ILoveMyBabyBird.
Just googled and learned something new from KellyMom: On the walls of the lactocytes (milk-producing cells of the alveoli) are prolactin receptor sites that allow the prolactin in the blood stream to move into the lactocytes and stimulate the synthesis of breastmilk components. (http://www.kellymom.com/bf/supply/milkproduction.html)
another thing that i found interesting reading this is that it says that the prolactin receptors sites change shape and expand when full so that milk slows down because the receptors cannot bond. Wonder if IGT prolactin receptor sites might have some type of defect in their shape making them stay in the expanded stage longer or something. Just another one of my theories.
Interesting about the prolactin, the moringa is suppose to help prolactin levels. My powder came today and still no baby, so I guess I will be able to start taking it at least a day before she arrives.
no, the production is slowed down by a whey protein that signals those receptors to change shape thus slowing the production - I have read some speciality articles - .
I think it's important for us IGT mamas not to compare our situations with fully mammaried mamas. Once I stopped thinking of my IGT as a detriment and just went with it, I have found that my nursing relationship with my daughter is very comforting and good. I can make about an ounce and a half per 3 hours (that's on Dom and fenugreek and pumping), and my daughter nurses very well. She gets around 12 oz of formula a day (fed on demand, so she could have more if she wanted it), eats some solids (BLW), and nurses about 5 times during the day and 3-5 times at night (cosleeping). I usually pump three or four times a day, when my daughter is distracted and does not often take time to get the hindmilk. Here are some good things about having IGT:
1. My boobs put the good stuff in first. I only make a small amount of milk, but it's filled with anitbodies and fat and the tastes of the foods I eat. My daughter likes all kinds of solid foods, and she has only gotten sick a couple of times (probably because I'm a SAHM and she isn't heavily exposed). When she has been ill, she got well quickly. A flu not covered by our flu shots hit our household a few months back, and baby girl was only sick for three days as opposed to two weeks.
2. I don't have to worry about vitamin deficiencies. Since I have to supplement with formula, I make sure it's the best I can buy organic, with enough vitamin D so that I don't worry about my pale, sun shielded child getitng Rickets. I also struggled with low iron throughout my pregnancy, but I didn't worry about my daughter's iron as a newborn because of the iron supplements in formula.
3. I cherish every nursing session. It's such a privilege to be able to afford a fancy pump, Domperidone RX, and loads of fenugreek and Mother's Milk tea, all of which are necessary for me to get to nurse my daughter. I know that babies ween when they ween, and I know that many women in my situation do not have the resources to eek out enough milk to sustain nursing. This awareness helps me to focus on the moment and enjoy my baby's closeness, the way she props her foot up on my when she nurses, the way she has started climbing up my lap toward my breast now that she's learning to crawl.
4. Night nursing. Even an ounce at a time is fine at night. I roll over to nurse, cuddled near my baby girl, and she and I get much more sleep than if I had to get up and make a bottle in the night.
5. Gratitude. I don't know which factors in my puberty or pregnancies made my breasts not develop properly (my womb works great!). But I am very grateful to be able to share the closeness and nourishment of nursing with my daughter. I am grateful to the LC's who helped me bond with and nourish both of my children (I only made 1/2 oz. with my son, and he had dysphagia, so we only nursed 6 weeks), for the midwives who encouraged me, for forums like this one that gave me good tips on herbs, for goat's rue and fenugreek and Domperidone. If everything had worked easily, I might have made the mistake of thinking that breastfeeding was easy and natural for everyone and taken it for granted.
Just thought I would offer a positive spin on things, as someone more than 9 months into an IGT nursing relationship.
About some of the challenges:
-I have not been able to lose much weight while on the meds and herbs, but I am not worried about that. I imagine the weight will drop off pretty quickly when she weans.
-My daughter wouldn't nurse when she was teething and had the flu. My milk was too thick for her to drink undiluted. I just pumped for a couple of days, and she went back to the breast when she could breathe better. The plus side: I actually have a couple of tiny bottles of frozen breastmilk in the freezer! (kind of novel for an IGT mom)
-Biting. I imagine I got bitten a little more than moms with full supplies, while my daughter was teething. Babies tend to bite near the end of a feeding, which is about two minutes in for me. I just put my pinky in her little mouth, and she unclamped. Never lasted long, and I learned to tell when she was sore gummed and liable to bite. Tylenol doses a few times when she was obviously in pain and watching her closely averted most biting. Now if she bites, I know she is getting a new tooth. She bit me twice this morning. Guess who has nine teeth now? :)
Hang in there, mamas!
Thank you so much for your words, it really makes me see the IGT problem from another perspective, a better one. finally we need to manage with what we get and make peace with our breasts and just relax. It was such a fight for me to make more milk and I started from 500 ml and now I make 650 ml and in some good days 700 ml but with such an effort............. i will take your advice and really focus on the good things: I have the privilege to breastfeed ( many women who have normal breasts just give a bottle and never know what a breastfeeding relation is), and I am able to give my DD the best I have, and also I am so fortunate to afford Dom, fenugreek goat's rue, hospital grade pump. I am also lucky as I have a very supportive husband , a supportive LC and also this forum.
Breastfeeding with IGT has been the biggest chalenge of my life and If I was and I am able to do this, then nothing else seems difficult.
Can you tell me your pumping/ feeding regimen? Do you offer the breast and then pump after baby nurses? how many times a day, do you pump after every nurse? do you pump at night?
Thanks
Hi ladies,
My lovely boy, our fourth and last baby, Kustav, was born on Monday, April 18th. He is healthy, 4330g (9lb8oz) at birth, and everybody is smitten with him! It was a wonderful, unmedicated birth, thanks to wonderful midwives, and I am so grateful for that. Now to vent...
I am once again overwhelmed with grief because of the breastfeeding. You would think the fourth time I would be emotionally prepared, but I can't keep back the tears, and I hate that! Nobody else seems to understand the grief -- but I know that here I will find women who understand.
My breasts feel slightly heavier & firmer, but little to nothing seems to come out. Could it be there is no let-down?
I have been throwing every herb at it that I could find out about, but at this point I'm even having a hard time getting him to latch properly, so he's not getting at what little is there. I'm also struggling with the SNS this time, which I used for all 3 of my kids -- I'm not sure why, but he HATES the feeling of the tube in his mouth. As a result, feeding is taking up all of our time, and I'm full of guilt that I am neglecting the other three children. I just don't have the freedom to devote myself to feeding that I did before. He is also somewhat jaundiced, and not pooping (formula is constipating him), so I am under pressure to get more down him, and more frequently. I did get him out into the sun a few times yesterday, and it seems a bit better today. However, the jaundice also makes him sleepy, which doesn't help!
I have only found the time and energy to pump twice, and pumped almost nothing. Once it was 2ml, once it was 5ml (total both sides). I just broke down when I saw that.
I know that post-partum hormones are also playing a part in this, but I'm starting to resent being told, "It's just your hormones..." by well-meaning loved ones!
My husband is off work for only one more week, so I'm trying not even to think about how I'll manage then!
So, apart from needing a sympathetic ear, I wanted to ask advice from you experienced and smart mamas -
1) did you find pumping helped? Should I dedicate myself to a rigorous pumping schedule to see if that increases my supply?
2) How long does goat's rue usually take to kick in? I'm taking all kinds of herbs together -- so I'm not sure which, if any, might help. Is there any advice about which ones to try, or how to alternate or combine them, etc??
3) I realize it's only 6 days right now, but how long did it take some of you to see an increase in supply? Mine is so minimal I don't even know how to measure - I try to get as much of it directly into the baby as I can, so obviously I can't measure that, but I don't near more than a few swallows on each side, and I never feel a let-down (but I never really did).
4) did you develop a regimen/routine with feeding/pumping/herbs? What worked well for you? I feel completely disorganized, which isn't helping the feelings of being overwhelmed....
thanks for listening, and any advice is welcome!
The only thing I know is that you MUST fight for the first 6 weeks. In Making more milk book says that in those first 6 weeks prolactin receptors are developed on the mammary cells so your breast will eventually respond better to the prolactin level in your body if it has the right receptors. It is essential to pump when the baby is not nursing pump as much as you can.
remember even those 5 ml contain antibodies so give those 5 ml to him.
1.yes in the next six weeks pump as much as possible. If your baby nurses 10 hrs per day then you don't need to pump, if not then you should pump after feedings and in between feedings.
2 you need to wait 2 weeks to see full results of goat's rue
3. your supply is well established after 6 weeks
4 don't feel disorganized. it worked very well for me to pump one side while baby is on the other and in this way I catch every letdown that my baby stimulates and also estimate half of the output. 8 times in 24 hrs. I am also on dom 60 mg a day, goat's tue, fenugreek ( 6 teaspoons a day) and alfalfa in addition to omega 3 fish oil and vitamins calcium and iron quite a lot.
hang in there for the next 6 weeks and let us know how is going
I breastfeed, then give the tiny bottle, then pump 3-4 times/day. Sometimes I don't pump afterwards, when the baby is less distracted. I never pump between 8pm-8am. My daughter nurses well then, and we need our sleep. In the early weeks, I would pump at 9:30 and11pm, but I gave that up after about four weeks. I know it sounds crazy, but sleep really, really helps. I hired a mother's helper a couple of days a week in the early weeks to play with my son so I could nap one of the baby's naps with her. If pumping interferes with sleep, I'd say cut it.
My daughter often splits her bottles into two feedings, so I pour whatever I pump (usually .5 oz or so) into her bottle of formula. Babies adjust to their mamas, and mine often pauses at the intervals of my supply (1.5 oz). Kind of cool, actually.
hello everybody, and thanks for your wonderful advice! I feel less overwhelmed today, and am trying to fit in more pumping each day. I will continue to take a double dosage of the goat's rue tincture and wait a couple of weeks for it to kick in. Have started Domperidone also, so it should be starting to work. I have to admit I'm reluctant to pump because the results are so disheartening, but I know it is the stimulation that is key. I just have to get over it.
Dalailana - I'll try to focus on these first 6 weeks (Kustav is 1 week old today!), and give it everything I can. I'm amazed by your in-depth knowledge & the amount of research you have done! Thanks for the information - even if it may be depressing, it is ALWAYS better to be informed.
Somemyrrh - thanks for your list of 'gratitudes' - I really needed that. I was in a terrible state when I posted yesterday, and it is so easy to sink, isn't it? I have four incredible, healthy children, and I truly am grateful.... but there are moments when I just can't seem to get over this loss. Doesn't help that most people think I'm just a nutcase for even caring! There is a tremendous amount of guilt involved, as it has been suggested to me it might be due to being overweight during puberty, which caused a hormonal imbalance resulting in IGT.
On a positive note (finally!) after a couple of enormous poops (some transitional/some formula), Kustav had a poo that was almost entirely yellow & seedy. I had to call my husband over to look at it, and he laughed at how excited I was. I know you will all share that excitement!
Thanks again everybody!
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