Please respond with love... - Page 5

[Marylizah]

I have two intact sons and I live in Europe (France).

At 6 weeks old, DS2 came down with a UTI.

We treated it with antibiotics, he's never had a problem since. DS1, at four has never had any issues whatsoever.

And no one, ever, at any point, suggested circ'ing DS2. It's just not that big a deal (thanks to antibiotics!). Really, most of the world doesn't circ and men grow up just fine.

Wishing you peace with whatever you decide.

[Purple Sage]

Originally Posted by Baby~Braatens~Mama

I am going through this same emotional heartbreak, though I have not had a child yet. Our babe is a boy and I have been going back and forth through the positives and negatives of both. I absolutely hate to bring my child ANY pain, especially if it is unnecessary... but even in this anti-circ board most of the posts are desperate mothers worried about forced retraction, uti's, nameless boils and cysts, bleeding and infections. All uncirc'd boys, and I can't help but question myself on the morality of the possibility of putting my child through years of pain until he is old enough to tell me that he would like a circumsision... Not saying that every uncirc'd kid has problems. But the number of stories is overwhelming for this first time mom.

I hardly ever visit this part of MDC. I have one son, and he is intact. He has not had any problems at all whatsoever with his penis (he's almost 4). I think there are a lot of parents on this board with intact sons who've never had an issue and don't come around here for that very reason. I truly hope you don't take your son's choice from him based on the posts on this particular forum.

[outlier]

Originally Posted by Baby~Braatens~Mama

I absolutely hate to bring my child ANY pain, especially if it is unnecessary... but even in this anti-circ board most of the posts are desperate mothers worried about forced retraction, uti's, nameless boils and cysts, bleeding and infections. All uncirc'd boys, and I can't help but question myself on the morality of the possibility of putting my child through years of pain until he is old enough to tell me that he would like a circumsision... Not saying that every uncirc'd kid has problems. But the number of stories is overwhelming for this first time mom.

I wanted to point out here that I've noticed many of the desperate mother posts in this forum are from brand new MDC members, people who were probably led here by a friend or a random internet search for what could be going on with their sons. These aren't women who have had the time to look through all the resources here and pick the brains of the very knowledgeable men and women who post in this forum. Some of these women have been told very scary or unhelpful things by medical professionals, and have found this forum in a last-ditch effort to prevent what they suspect is an unnecessary surgery. Really, it's the lucky ones who find this forum.

With pretty much any other problem your child may have, you can ask your family, friends, or pediatrician. Who can you ask in this country IRL when you're worried about a possible problem with an intact son? You can ask men who are almost all circed, women who have little to no experience with foreskin, or a doctor who was likely given a very inadequate education on care and function of the foreskin. I completely understand when you say you feel overwhelmed by the number of scary stories on this forum, but please realize this forum is one of the few places you can go to get this kind of information. You're ahead of the game already because you know you can always come here if you have any questions at all.

Originally Posted by AFWife

I thought about this in the shower...if I hadn't had a mom that breastfed me until 14mo the BFing forum would have scared me off because it's full of moms asking for advice about infection and pain and cracks and AAAHHHH...

I KNOW! I have many friends and family members who are currently or have successfully breastfed. I'm 100% committed to breastfeeding this little one on the way, and will do whatever I can to make it work. However, all it takes is 5 minutes of looking around on that forum and I seriously start to fear for my boobs and our future bf relationship.

Boy or girl, I'm not one bit worried about this baby's foreskin. When left alone, it's just not an inherently problematic body part. I'll worry much more about this baby's (and my own!) appendix, gallbladder, teeth, etc., which are all way more likely to cause problems that will warrant their removal.

[MisaGoat]

It sounds like you don't want to circ this baby.

You feel bad about what happened with your first son, once you understood more what circumcision entailed first hand.

As far as 'problems' I think a lot of times problems are blamed on being intact that aren't necessary so. My husband is intact and has not had a single problem, my son is intact without problems. I don't think circumcision is a legitimate 'prophylactic' procedure.

Circumcision is a cultural phenomenon here, not a medical necessity.

[MisaGoat]

Originally Posted by AFWife

when he came back hiccuping from the crying I felt bad. When the dressing came off and I SAW the raw wound I broke down and sobbed. He has 2 skin bridges (one in the exact same place as DH oddly enough) and I've never mentioned it to a medical person because I don't want them to go "Oh, well, we'll just cut that" or something.

My mindset is currently: IF it needs to be done later it can be...and usually WITH anesthetic. I can't undo it after it's already done.

Just go back and read what you wrote, your own words.

I'll explain my thought process, but I can't say I was really on the fence:

He was born with it, why remove it? It isn't necessary. It causes pain. I have no reason to circumcise. I've know intact men without any problems (including my husband). I know my FIL's circumcision caused problems that needed surgery later (I don't know the details exactly but that is why my husband didn't get circumcised as a baby).

Honestly I couldn't even watch a circumcision when I was a nursing student. I cried without even seeing it. If I can't handle watching, there is no way I would have that done to my son.

[SpiderMum]

If you leave an intact child alone (NO retraction), problems with the foreskin are very very rare. UTIs are rare, but easily treated with antibiotics. Phimosis isn't common and can't be diagnosed till after puberty and can be treated with steroid cream. There really isn't much to worry about, I mean...nature wouldn't screw this up. Either God got the design spot on or natural selection weeded out any poor penis designs long ago. Men in the UK certainly aren't dropping like flies because they are intact.

Meanwhile, 1 in 3 circs result in complications.

Beyond all that, it's your son's penis. I think everyone should be able to decide what they want to do with their own bodies unless there is some dire medical need for surgery during childhood. I know it's hard when you already have one circumcised child, but circing the 2nd one won't fix the first.

[MrsJewelsRae]

IME INTACT is easier and cleaner than cut. I've been a nanny and DCP for years before and after becoming a mom. All the boys I ever took care of were cut and it was my idea of normal. When I got pg with my oldest, who is 8, I didn't even consider not circing him. But I was confronted on another message board and decided I at least owed it to my child to research it, as I did everything else about birth and babies. I didn't want to though, cause I was afraid of what I might find and tbh, I thought intact would be gross. But I am so thankful I learned the truth on time. All it took was one video to turn me into anti circ, I told my dh no way in hell would I do that to our son, and after watching the video, he agreed. When my son was born I found him to be beautiful and whole, I never realized just how raw and injured all the boys actually seemed that I had babysat. At every diaper change you had to move their cut foreskins because stuff always got trapped in them. With my son, it was just wipe it off like a finger. I have 2 boys now, both intact, and have never had any problems at all.

Research shows that infants have less capacity to deal with pain than adults or older children do. Not to mention, when an adult it circ'd, he is put right under and given all the painkillers he needs afterwards. Babies are given no such humane treatment, they cut them as if they were unfeeling beings- awake and afraid, and send them on their way w/o a bit of pain relief for afterwards, then they have to sit in a diaper of their own urine day in and day out while they are still raw and healing. No question in my mind infant circ is far worse than adult, even if they can't remember it.

Circumcision removes a shocking amount of length. My nephew that is circ'd appears to have almost no penis, just a little nub, while my ds is about 3-4 times longer. I don't understand how our culture can find this acceptable.

My son's penis is his, I have to right to allow a cosmetic surgery upon it.

I would never want my children to think that they must conform in order to be accepted. Yet people always seem to bring up the alleged locker room scenario. If that were to happen to my son, I would except him to turn it around and say something to the affect of "dude why are you checking out my stuff!?" etc.

For many years north america has perpetuated the myth that intact is dirty and must be retracted to keep it clean from infancy. This "medical advice" is bunk and is the cause for many circs that "had" to be done later due to the retraction causing small tears or adhesions- scars basically. Then of course, any trouble w/ an itact penis meant immediate circ, when they could have tried steroid creams first. But ignorance prevails. All you have to do is look at the circ rates after infancy in European countries where circ is not routine, they're intact and they know how to care for themselves, thus their adult circ rate is quite low...

[mamadebug]

I found this thread when searching for another topic, but thought I would chime in to say that my DS is now 6, intact and has never had an infection. All of the boys around his age that we are close friends with (I can count 6 boys off the top of my head) are intact and 1 of them had an infection 1 time. It was uncomfortable for maybe a day until the antibiotics kicked in, but cleared up quickly.

[ma2two]

Originally Posted by Baby~Braatens~Mama

even in this anti-circ board most of the posts are desperate mothers worried about forced retraction, uti's, nameless boils and cysts, bleeding and infections. All uncirc'd boys, and I can't help but question myself on the morality of the possibility of putting my child through years of pain until he is old enough to tell me that he would like a circumsision... Not saying that every uncirc'd kid has problems. But the number of stories is overwhelming for this first time mom.

You should read this thread.
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...068&highlight=

[rabbitmum]

Hello, I just wanted to chime in and leave my couple of cents. I am European, live in Europe and don't know anybody who is circed. Apparently my DH has an English friend who was circed when he was 20 because of phimosis, but that is the only case of actual phimosis I have ever heard of. And here (Norway) doctors don't even circ for phimosis - they just cut a small slit to allow retraction.

I have always been surprised by all the questions about suspected foreskin problems on MDC, because I never ever hear about any here, where I have known loads of mothers with sons for over 20 years! (My eldest son is 22 - never had any problems with his foreskin, of course!) I am assuming that it must be because many people in the US lack knowledge and experience with normal penises. So that a slightly red little tip or suspected pain in a toddler is interpreted as a problem, or that somebody has actually retracted and caused some damage.

There is nothing strange or difficult about having an intact son, there is nothing to worry about, just leave it alone.

UTIs are really rare in boys - none of mine has ever had one - and it doesn't have anything to do with the foreskin anyway.

I do realize that it is easy for me to say, living in a culture where it isn't an issue at all, but I really hope you will leave all your future sons intact.

Good luck with the rest of your pregnancy!

[lalaland42]

I also live in Europe, although I am an American, and where I live a baby cannot legally be circed at birth in the hospital. If someone wants it done, the parents have to take the baby to a professional and there are some requirements. I don't know what they are because I wasn't interested in doing that to DS. My friends here, knowing American culture, have asked if I had DS circed and I just shrugged and said no. Their relief was palpable.

I don't get your worry. There are entire continents of people who don't circ routinely and you don't hear about their penises falling off. Just learn about proper penis care and it'll be just fine.

[Yulia_R]

the true eye-opener for my dh was...

A true eye opener for my dh was learning the history of circ in North America which was prevention/cure of masturbation which was considered dirty and sinful and was blamed for blindness, retardation and a ton of other physical and mental conditions...very sick history. This is a great link quoting different MDs of that time:

A Short History of Circumcision in North America In the Physicians' Own Words: http://www.noharmm.org/docswords.htm

[Yulia_R]

Originally Posted by lalaland42

I don't get your worry. There are entire continents of people who don't circ routinely and you don't hear about their penises falling off. Just learn about proper penis care and it'll be just fine.

I SO agree. I am originally from Russia where men are (thanks God!!) whole. And they are the ones who almost never have to deal with things like yeast or UTIs (unlike some women...who are also intact in case you may wonder).

[arianascrunchymama]

a slightly higher risk of an infection is no reason to cut off a healthy important part of a baby's body.

circumcision effects the entire function of the penis, sexually and otherwise

I'm back in school to get certified as an IBCLC, and one of the classes I'm in this semester is currently delving into the anatomy of the brain, as well as lots of studies about it's different functions. Did you know it takes 6 months+ for a circ'd baby boy's cortisol levels to go back down to normal? Then for the rest of his life any pain will cause cortisol to flood his body to the same levels that it was at post-op. Almost like the circumcision trained his body that those extreme levels of stress hormones is an appropriate response to pain. And here we thought our men were just being big babies when they get hurt or sick

my exH had scars from adhesions and a skin bridge. Every man I've been with (all circ'd, unfortunately for me) has had an obvious scar when he has an erection. They were all also men who focused on orgasm instead of the pleasure of the act itself.

I sat for a boy my DD's age from age 11mo-21mo. He was circ'd at 6 weeks because of some insurance issue his parents were having (they were probably trying to get them to cover it). His mom told me he was just starting to smile socially and coo. For over a week he didn't smile and the only sound out of his mouth was blood curdling screams. In the 12 months I had him he needed antibiotics for 3 infections that caused his circ scar to ooze puss, bleed, and his glans to get purple-ish. It broke my heart and I would hold him and apologize to him.

What does society deem acceptable to cut off on girls? I think that no matter what gender you are, you deserve to have the rights to your own natural body. Body integrity!!! There will come a day (hopefully) that the US will be as horrified by MGM as they are by FGM, but I doubt I will see it in my lifetime.

[Vaquitita]

I haven't read the whole thread yet, but I am debating over this right now with my 10 day old son. we didn't know what we were having, but i was really hoping for a girl so i wouldn't have to deal with this. i should have researched it while i was pregnant, but didn't.

We circ'd our first son, I didn't really want to but DH did and as we did everything else my way I compromised on this. And his circ went fine, no problems at all. he was not happy when he woke up from the nap he took right after, but after that it never seemed to bother him again. i did everything i could to make it easier for him- we used anesthetic (sp?), some thick white cream stuff that we globbed all over him 30 min before hand. i didn't not see it done, i made dh do it. ds was not tied down, but only held by dh and a nurse. with every diaper change (and i change every time he pees) i would apply neosporin + pain relief.

this time around we have to pay out of pocket for it, and the dr who did my first son charges 2x as much as every other dr. i'm not sure why. but i really like this dr and would want her to do it (with my first son, when i brought up the circ, she asked me if i was sure i wanted it) cause i feel more comfortable with her doing it than some unknown dr. and reading here there's mention of different styles of circ (high and tight, low and loose) and i have no idea what these mean. or which is 'better'/less bad. it's so overwhelming. i think ds1's circ is 'loose' because his skin does at times cover part of his glans. i'm not sure on the high vs. low thing.

while i have no problems with having my sons intact when dh is circ'd, i do worry about how it will go having one son circ'd and one not. i would love to hear from mom's who have both sons who are and who aren't circ'd. right now this is the only reason we want it done. dh now wishes ds1 wasn't so we wouldn't have to do it this time (mostly cause of the $$, which kinda upsets me.) i don't see any need for circ'ing, god knew what he was doing. on the other hand, if circ'ing is so horrible why would god have told the israelites/jews to do it? that wouldn't make sense. --that's not a real question, just something i wonder.

it's hard for me to know what to make of the risks of circ'ing, because neither dh nor ds1 have had any complications.

[wookie]

another one to chime in with both my sons are intact (as were the vast majority of men in my country of origin) and neither of them have evr had an infection of any kind.

as to the pp who was wondering the dynamics when one child is circ'ed and the other not, well what if one of your children was blond and the otehr redheaded? would you *permanently* change one of their hair colours so they would look alike? what if they had eyes of different colour? if you think you made a mistake one time, mama, please don;t make it again just so they can be comparable, yk? your second son is ANOTHER person altogether.

[NSmomtobe]

Originally Posted by Vaquitita

while i have no problems with having my sons intact when dh is circ'd, i do worry about how it will go having one son circ'd and one not. i would love to hear from mom's who have both sons who are and who aren't circ'd. right now this is the only reason we want it done. dh now wishes ds1 wasn't so we wouldn't have to do it this time (mostly cause of the $$, which kinda upsets me.)

Here are some previous threads on this topic:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?t=1094686
http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?t=1250192

[Vaquitita]

Originally Posted by NSmomtobe

Here are some previous threads on this topic:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?t=1094686
http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?t=1250192

thanks for these links. dh thinks ds2 will feel the odd one out since dh and ds1 are both circ'd. i suggested we just say we knew better the 2nd time. dh thinks it comes down to something being wrong with one of the boys. either we didn't know better with ds1 and so there's something wrong with him OR we couldn't afford it (or whatever) and so there's something wrong with ds2.

i'm trying to figure out how to get him to look at this differently, that they're just different without there being anything wrong with one of them. i think he cares more about them being different then they are likely to. hmm, maybe that's what i need to say to him... that the boys will only have a problem with it if WE view one of them as being 'defective'.

and what if we did circ ds2 and then in the future have another son? we'd have to go through this all over again.