Battle with STBX

[Phoenix~Mama]

Okay, I thought I was over this hump with him, as it involves money to get this done, and well STBX definitely isn't usually one for handing over money. I knew all the other stuff I gave him wasn't going to make a difference. The pain part, etc, his response is "he won't remember it when he's older"

So this morning he calls me and starts spouting how it's his "fatherly right to make this decision and I can't take that away from him." That he is circ'ed and there is no reason why his son can't be too.

Apparantly he found a guy he works with that wasn't circ'ed as a baby and he had made the decision as a teen to get it done because he was embarassed by it and tired of trying to keep it clean all the time. He said he was always battling infections because every tiny piece of dirt or whatever would get in there and he'd constantly have to clean it and he'd still end up with infections.

So now STBX's biggest argument is that he can prove that it isn't sanitary to keep the foreskin and that it causes major problems.

I've read a bunch of links here... but as I said, it all doesn't matter to him because his famous line to me, "anyone can write anything on a piece of paper. you only look for crap to back up your decision and that's it so it's all BS."

I need real people help I think. I just don't know how to go about finding un-circ'ed grown up males who would be willing to talk about this?

I did have the writings of the one guy from the links on here... but that too STBX said was BS, so what, it was one guy. (but see how he only knows one guy and I'm being unreasonable not to fold into his demands?)

Anyway... I really need help. STBX said he is fully prepared to take me to court over this and he gets a large bonus in December to pay for it. He said he feels that strongly about it.

[Fellow Traveler]

Originally Posted by Phoenix~Mama

I need real people help I think. I just don't know how to go about finding un-circ'ed grown up males who would be willing to talk about this?

Well, I am one myself and the story he tells is difficult for me to believe. I've never had any thing even approaching a problem myself and I've never known any other intact guys who've had either.

[eepster]

Both DH and I have parents who weren't born in circ'ing countries (my dad in Ireland, his mom in Hong Kong, and his dad in mainland China,) so only a small handful of men/boys who were born in US or Canadian hospitals in either of our families is circ'd. None of the intact men/boys have any issues at all.

Of course, outside the US there are many places (such as Sweden) where practically no one ever gets circ'd, and no one ever has any problems.

If his standard for argument in this is a single case, how about showing him the story of that loosing his penis and eventually committing suicide is a way worse thing than choosing to get circ'd as a teen b/c one decides they want to. For all you know, your DS may want to get a nose job too, you aren't going to get that done at birth just incase.

[Marsupialmom]

Howard Stern is cut and Jewish but against infant circumcision.

[Phoenix~Mama]

I did tell him that only 15% of the world circ's and that is mostly found here. His response was "and look how the rest of the world lives, you don't know if they are all infected."



I said that circ'ing in Europe is basically unheard of and they are comparable to the states as far as economy/education/etc...

Then he started in how I can't possibly know anything because I do not have a penis (he did not use that word though, but I'll stay PC ) and I have no right to be saying about any of this because I do not have a penis, and he does, so he knows more.

[Anastasiya]

The I'd simply respond with, "I may not have a penis, but I DO have a foreskin (my clitoral hood - which is the EXACT SAME THING), and I can tell you how nice it feels and how happy I am to have it, so with that mentality you have no right to decide because you don't even have one."

I'd probably also add something spiteful and to the effect of: If you ever circumcise our son against his wishes, I will make sure he knows exactly what you did to him, with full knowledge, and you will get to carry any and all the blame from that. Solely YOU.

If it's too tight and causes him and his future spouse pain, it's YOUR fault. I'll let him know that.

If it's too loose and he suffers painful adhesions which his doctor rips apart, causing scar tissue to form, slowly desensitizing him, it's YOUR fault, and when he's older and remembers this pain, I'll let him know.

If he ever develops meatal stenosis like 10% or more of circumcised boys do and has to go for more surgery to reopen his urethra, that too will be YOUR fault.

And if he, for whatever reasons, comes to be resentful of the fact that he doesn't have a foreskin, as he very likely will due to the huge amount of information out there nowadays, I'll let him know that only YOU are to blame.

Do you really want to have to deal with these possibilities, considering that there is an easy solution to all this? It is not YOUR body. It is not MY body. This is our SON'S body and we can just let HIM make the choice for how he wants HIS OWN penis to look and function. That way he can own his OWN decision.

[Quirky]

Are you married and getting divorced, or not married? Do you get child support?

I'd talk to a lawyer about how to get it in writing that all medical decisions have to be made jointly, that you do not consent to circumcision, and make it VERY clear to him that you will sue him for battery if he circumcises your son without your consent. Whatever custody agreement you have needs to have this written in black and white.

(Oh, and don't give away child support or anything to make this happen -- he still has to pay what he's legally obligated to pay. But he doesn't get to make a decision for cosmetic surgery even if he's willing to pay out of pocket.)

You are not going to be able to reason with him. He is unreasonable. He doesn't want to listen to reason. This is a completely irrational, emotional issue for him and you could line up every doctor from coast to coast to tell him it's not necessary and he would still want to circumcise.

So you need to stop trying to talk sense into him, because it's not going to work.

You have to put your foot down and tell him it's happening over your dead body. You will not consent, and you will make his life hell through the courts if he pays anyone to take a knife to your son.

[Galatea]

Originally Posted by Quirky

Are you married and getting divorced, or not married? Do you get child support?

I'd talk to a lawyer about how to get it in writing that all medical decisions have to be made jointly, that you do not consent to circumcision, and make it VERY clear to him that you will sue him for battery if he circumcises your son without your consent. Whatever custody agreement you have needs to have this written in black and white.

(Oh, and don't give away child support or anything to make this happen -- he still has to pay what he's legally obligated to pay. But he doesn't get to make a decision for cosmetic surgery even if he's willing to pay out of pocket.)

You are not going to be able to reason with him. He is unreasonable. He doesn't want to listen to reason. This is a completely irrational, emotional issue for him and you could line up every doctor from coast to coast to tell him it's not necessary and he would still want to circumcise.

So you need to stop trying to talk sense into him, because it's not going to work.

You have to put your foot down and tell him it's happening over your dead body. You will not consent, and you will make his life hell through the courts if he pays anyone to take a knife to your son.

Yeah to this. There is nothing you can say that will make him be reasonable. He is your STBX for a reason and I bet he likes to argue with you.

[Phoenix~Mama]

We are married, separated.

I will be calling my lawyer on Monday as she is on vacation right now.

But... okay, I have this paper that says all medical decisions must be made jointly... what stops STBX from taking DS at 4 months when he is able to take DS out for a few hours away from me, to somebody to get this done? This doctor would not know of said paper if STBX does not tell him, and obviously he wouldn't because he's adamant about getting this done.

What happens then?

[PoppyMama]

Ask your children's doctor but I believe that after 6 weeks they will not do it at the office and it must be done in the OR under general anesthesia by a urologist. Not something that can be accomplished in a couple of hour visit.

[Anastasiya]

Originally Posted by Phoenix~Mama

We are married, separated.

I will be calling my lawyer on Monday as she is on vacation right now.

But... okay, I have this paper that says all medical decisions must be made jointly... what stops STBX from taking DS at 4 months when he is able to take DS out for a few hours away from me, to somebody to get this done? This doctor would not know of said paper if STBX does not tell him, and obviously he wouldn't because he's adamant about getting this done.

What happens then?

I assume the lawyer would have to go over the consequences of doing this with your STBX, which I assume (if your STBX did it anyway) could result in a circ'd child but loss of visitation, since he will prove he cannot be trusted.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by Phoenix~Mama

Then he started in how I can't possibly know anything because I do not have a penis (he did not use that word though, but I'll stay PC ) and I have no right to be saying about any of this because I do not have a penis, and he does, so he knows more.

And, he doesn't have a foreskin, so what's his point?? I know men have issues with this topic, but that arguments makes me nuts.

If your son has problems later, he can get circ'd later. It's his choice. Why would your stbx want to put a baby through something, so that he can avoid it as an adult, anyway? I just don't get that reasoning. I mean...seriously..."it's so horrible to think that an adult male might have to go through this that we'll force it on a baby, instead"?? I still can't get my mind around the fact that people think this makes any kind of sense.

[Anastasiya]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride

Why would your stbx want to put a baby through something, so that he can avoid it as an adult, anyway? I just don't get that reasoning. I mean...seriously..."it's so horrible to think that an adult male might have to go through this that we'll force it on a baby, instead"?? I still can't get my mind around the fact that people think this makes any kind of sense.

Yeah, like another poster brought up elsewhere....I'm rephrasing:

"I don't ever want him to have to go through circumcision pain when he's older!
.....so I'll just put him through it now."


"I don't ever want him to be prematurely retracted and hurt!
....so I'll just have it done now."


"I don't ever want him to go through the pain of separation!
....so I'll just have it done now."


"I don't ever want him to get true phimosis and have to have a dorsal slit!
....so I'll just have it done now."


How does that make ANY sense???

[Quirky]

I definitely wouldn't waste any more time trying to convince him because he's simply not open to discussion and he's obviously being a big jerk about it.

I would call your attorney and figure out what you have to do to make it crystal clear that you under no circumstances ever consent to circumcision. A letter from your attorney to his attorney spelling out the consequences of his circumcising the baby behind your back. And I would fight to make sure that you are not separated from the baby at all while he is nursing -- especially not for overnight visits.

I hope your attorney takes this seriously!

[MommytoB]

The foreskin infections from your STBX friend is proably because of too much cleaning because that's where I hear alot of foreskin complaints come in from guys who do get circ'ed as adults saying they have had lots of infections even though they continously tried to keep themselves clean.

More clean those guys did end up having this odor that smells bad due to interupting the balance of the natural flora but then they assume the odor is because they are not clean so they continue with over cleaning.

The odor can even occur in male babies who are getting too clean and continously forcible retracted.

Other than that maybe your STBX friend had lots of smegma and the doctor referred to the smegma as infections because depending on amount of smegma can be mistaken for being called pus in males with foreskins that includes children too. I have heard parents being prescribe antibiotic cream for their son's smegma because the doctors think it's pus .

My boy has never used soap on his foreskin No Problems there at all all he has had rinse with water .

Even my 6 yr old son has the easiest time pulling back his foreskin and rinse in the water then he recovers don't see how that is a big deal of keeping cleaning especially when it's more easier of my boy to keep his foreskin clean than to brush his teeth .

So I would definetly connect with your attorney if she can't help you then contact the arclaw or maybe DaveGA will be posting here soon he could give you tips on what to do or also contact attorney rights for children .

[A&A]

Contact www.arclaw.org and ask for help.

[eepster]

Originally Posted by Phoenix~Mama

We are married, separated.

I will be calling my lawyer on Monday as she is on vacation right now.

But... okay, I have this paper that says all medical decisions must be made jointly... what stops STBX from taking DS at 4 months when he is able to take DS out for a few hours away from me, to somebody to get this done? This doctor would not know of said paper if STBX does not tell him, and obviously he wouldn't because he's adamant about getting this done.

What happens then?

Just send a letter to every Dr within a 50 mile radius, explaining that your STBX does not have legal custody, and that you will sue them if they circ your DS.