Talk to me about this 50/50 legal thing...

[Phoenix~Mama]

So in my mad research of circumciscion (trying to build my case against it)...

I began thinking, in general, how is the 50/50 legal thing work? Who prevents one parent from just going and making unilateral decisions that they are supposed to both agree and consent on?

I don't beleive all care providers, or other types of people ever think about it and don't look into it.

One example I have that a care provider did make sure to have both parents signatures was when DSD went to counseling. STBX received a form that he had to sign as well before an appointment was ever made.

But at doctor visits when she gets the flu shot every year, his consent is never asked for. He doesn't agree with flu shots (yay I at least have one less argument to make!) but he has never fought his first ex-wife on her decision to take their DD to get them. And his consent on it was never questioned.

Same for immunizations... his consent has never been requested.

Same for religious schooling. DSD's Mom just signer her up. The school never asked for STBX's signature on anything. Even though, they have 50/50 legal custody and it states that they should be agreeing and consenting together on school and religion.

STBX was livid about DSD going to Catholic school.

So I'm wondering... really, all of these things happened with his DSD without his consent.

So say at 4 months old, STBX decides to take DS to some doctor that I do not know and get him circ'ed? What is there really to stop that? If it's not routine for many to check about getting two parental signatures... who enforces 50/50 legal?

Another instance is, DSD's Mom took her to get her ears pierced. His consent was never asked for. They were done and when she came that weekend she had ear cleaning solution in her bag with a note that said we needed to clean them for DSD x amount of times a day.

STBX knows I'm against ear piercing until an age where DD/DS asks to get it done and can properly care for them on their own... but what's to say he won't get it in his head one day and decide he really wants to piss me off/get at me, whatever.... and takes DD to get her ears pierced? Because he has been asking me to do this since she was born.

And then I'm basically just left with anger after the fact, because what's done is done... it's not like I can magically put back on foreskin or close up holes in ears.

I think 50/50 legal is BS. I can understand that each parent in healthy mental state should have equal say in the imortant decisions that affect their children... but really what happens in cases where you are dealing with a narcisstic UAV who can never think beyond himself? And it's not like he'd ever sign off on me having full legal... and because he was never abusive enough, the courst will never just take it from him either.

So what happens?

[lilyka]

Dang it! I lost my post.

Ok my understanding of 50/50 legal....

*disclaimer, we are getting better and better at mentioning these things and discussing them rationally and I don't think anything huge has come up in the last two years that we did not eventually reach a decision on or just accept that it was not going to happen. the following example is an extreme case and purely hypothetical.

Lets say xh husband up and really wanted to get girls vaccinated (praise God he still seems to respect my position on this). things could pan out one of three ways. 1) I say no and we fight about it, grumble grumble and when he does not get his way he extracts his revenge by being poopy towards me later. 2) I say no, he does it anyway, I have the option to take him to court for contempt. The judge may or may not find him in contempt. If he does there may or may not be any consequences. Either way the damage has been done to the girls and cannot be undone. He could however end up losing legal custody. 3) I say no, he takes me to court to get a court order, and a judge decides what is in the best interest of my children.

[lilyka]

and the little things would never occur to me to get his permission. Basic health care (nothing that changes the status quo, more stuff like sealants or what kind of fillings do I want for their cavities), ear piercing, school schedules, crap like that, doesn't even register as a legal decision. I can't even imagine asking him for too much input on things like counseling so long as they don't interfere with his visitation schedule.

[Phoenix~Mama]

Originally Posted by lilyka

and the little things would never occur to me to get his permission. Basic health care (nothing that changes the status quo, more stuff like sealants or what kind of fillings do I want for their cavities), ear piercing, school schedules, crap like that, doesn't even register as a legal decision. I can't even imagine asking him for too much input on things like counseling so long as they don't interfere with his visitation schedule.

Well, counseling is a medical treatment, and I saw all the legal jargon on the therapist's form that STBX had to sign. Legally they had to get both parents signature...

Piercings are a body altering procedure. Legally a minor (anyone under 18) needs parental signed consent to get anything pierced.

School, the legal wording in the 50/50 legal section of divorce papers states that education and religion decisions need to be agreed upon. This is standard wording here.

[PoppyMama]

How long after he is born before your x will be able to take him visits? You're keeping him with you for the first few months right? Because after the newborn period they no longer do circ with no anesth or only a local and the surgery would have to be done in the OR under general anesthetic by a urologist. General anesthesia has it's own complications and will not be a walk in walk out thing he can do in a short visitation. He will have to take the child to see the urologist, pay for that visit, schedule the surgery and pay for OR time, the surgeon and the anesthesiologist.

I wouldn't mention any of this to him I would just try to not discuss this at all and let him take you to court about it after the baby is born.

[PoppyMama]

Make sure the babies doctor has it noted in his chart (don't know if you need to provide a copy of the custody papers themselves) saying that only routine medical care can be done with the authorization of both parents. The urologist will request the medical records before they schedule a surgery and general anesthesia for your son and your x would be outed.

[~Charlie's~Angel~]

Can you maybe try asking someone who had their son get a routine circumcision right there in the hospital after birth? Ask them if only the mother signed for its approval, or if both parents had to sign.

[Phoenix~Mama]

Hmm... maybe that's what the insurnace company policy means. I called my insurance today in hopes that it flat out denied coverage or did after a certain age, as one of my friends told me a lot of insurances are stopping coverage on circ.

My insurance does cover it, but usually as the bundle of hospital charges at birth. I told her I wasn't delivering in a hospital, so she went researching some more and came up with verbage about it stating that anesthesia must be used after 3 months of age. She said it would like depend on how it was billed at that point, and it has a possibility of going to their medical board to approve or deny coverage.

I guess my next round of calls would be to pedi's and see if this requiring anesthesia past three months is standard practice. Like if STBX called up a pedi to set something up, what would he be told?

And as it reads in the parenting agreement that my lawyer and I will be sending to STBX/his lawyer states he cannot take DS out of my home until 4 months of age. My lawyer has said that my progressive agreement is very fair, and if STBX doesn't sign off on it and it goes to court, the judge is likely to grant it without changes, as it offers more time than standard visitation, and shows that I'm not trying to keep STBX from his DS or anything, that I'm just trying to work up to overnights over a period of time in a reasonable manner.

Plus all the documenation I have on him canceling with DD. My lawyer seems pretty confident that what I have right now should secure me in getting the terms I want if this goes to court.

So he definitely would not have DS on his own until at least 4 months of age, where the anesthesia would be required.


@Barbie... I actually do not know anyone with a DS that has been circ'ed right now... well possibly one girl I went to high school with, but um, her and I had a falling out and I doubt she'd answer me if I emailed her about it. lol

[simplemama32]

I don't know if this will help any, since it's not specifically circ.-related, but I had a hospital birth (c-section) with DS, and he also ended up with some tests run while we were there. As far as I remember, I was the one that signed any necessary forms, gave consent, or whatever. My insurance was the one paying for everything, so I figured that was why.

[texmati]

can't the lawyer draw up papers specific to circ? If you can get your ex to sign them, perhaps you will have recourse if he does do it.

[Buzzer Beater]

Originally Posted by texmati

can't the lawyer draw up papers specific to circ? If you can get your ex to sign them, perhaps you will have recourse if he does do it.

This. I would bring it up with your lawyer ASAP. Don't just hope your STBX won't do it. There are so many things you can put into your parenting agreement, and it doesn't have anything to do with 50/50. My ex had my dd1 for about 10% of the time and still took her to get her tonsils out without my permission. I was legally the custodial parent and he did it anyway. If I'd had recourse I would have taken it. I don't think you can stop a father from doing whatever he wants- only try to discourage it legally if he thinks he will be in trouble with the court.

[lilyka]

definitely discuss it with your lawyer. this is a legal boundary worth establishing in court right off the bat.

Also how does your dr feel about circ. I know if my xh tried to do anything without my consent my Dr. would fight for me if he was at all involved. If for no other reason than he knows me and knows my wishes and knows I would want a say in it. I have all girls so I don;t have to worry about circ but if I had a son, especially an infant son I would ask my Dr if there was something he could put in his medical record stating that this was a legal issue or something, does that make sense. Your xh will not be able to take your son in for surgery without having his medical record pulled and them seeing this whole thing. And I cannot imagine a Dr. being willing to get in the middle of a custody dispute for a circ. vaccines maybe but not a circ.

[One_Girl]

Even if you have full legal custody he will still get visitation and he could do those things then. I think you should definitely set boundaries in your divorce decree on things like circumcision and medical decisions so there is a consequence if he does do it.