My Circumcision Decision Tree

[LeahMeryl]

I'm 29 weeks with my first and hubby and I are on the fence (although each of us leaning in opposing directions) as to whether or not to circumcise. Here's my thought process. Anyone see flaws or omissions?

(1) Religion -- Our religion is silent as to circumcision, so this is not an issue.

(2) Pain/Discomfort of procedure -- Lots of "good" things in life hurt a little, so if everything else points in the direction of circumcision, the short-term pain and discomfort won't affect our decision. (Personally, I have a hard time believing those who say that infants don't feel the procedure, but I'm not letting the short-term pain affect our long-term decision.)

(3) Cost -- like the pain thing, this won't affect my decision. Not sure if insurance covers it or not, but if it's something we decide we want done, we'll pay for it if we have to.

(4) Medical benefits/harms -- Based on hours upon hours of internet reading and the Mothering Magazine Circumcision reprint, I just don't believe there are medical benefits to the procedure. Then again, I'm not sure I believe that there is a quantified medical harm to it either. So, in my non-medical opinion, there is a tie between benefit and harm. This begs the question of why undergo a medical procedure that has not real medical benefits? I can't think of a good answer to that one, so that's one strike against circumcision.

(5) Hubby is circumcised -- How important is it that a boy's penis look like his dad's? I have to think long and hard about this one. How would I feel if I were the dad? I guess father and son will spend a limited portion of their lives together naked comparing their junk. Hubby probably feels differently than I do, but I don't think looking the same down there warrants the procedure. So that's a second strike against circumcision.

(6) Pleasure -- Is it true that the uncircumcised penis is more sensitive and experiences more pleasure than the circumcised penis? I guess it's all relative, but I certainly wouldn't want to take that away from my boy. Another strike against it.

(7) What will his peers think? While I had several partners myself, I've never been with anyone who wasn't circumcised. Would it be weird? I think it would be. Would a kid feel uncomfortable in the locker room if everyone else is cut? Probably. We're all so self-conscious as adolescents already, would un-cut make things worse? Then again, isn't uncut by definition longer, and therefore something of pride to guys? Is it wrong to cave into peer pressure that my kid MIGHT experience 12 years from now? Honestly, I can't decide on this one, so no strikes for or against.

(8) Hygiene - I don't buy any of the hygiene arguments, one way or the other.

(9) Personal choice - Of course, I have the "right" to make this decision, but does that mean I should make it or am I better off letting my child decide when he's the appropriate age? What guy would ever decide to undergo this (for a non-medical reason) in the future? Then again, doesn't that answer the question? What guy would choose to have this done to himself as an adult? Another strike against circumcision.

So, I guess that's where I fall out. Four strikes against circumcision and no points in favor of. Have I missed any important issues? I plan to present this thought process to my hubby soon, so I'd really appreciate input.

Thanks!

[MCatLvrMom2A&X]

Looks like you about covered it all and have really thought things through good for you mama and good luck with your dh. Dont be shocked if you run into resistance or outright refusal at first. It is hard sometimes for men to think that something might be "wrong" with them having been circed.

Have you watched a circ video? If you have there would be no doubt in your mind at all as to whether they feel pain or not.

[Quirky]

There are huge physical losses involved in circumcision. It is really beyond dispute that circumcision removes half the nerve endings of the penis and irrevocably alters its structure and function.

Read http://research.cirp.org and the papers by Taylor et al. at www.cirp.org (there's a search engine) on the structure, physiology, and function of the foreskin.

I believe you are also discounting the harms of circumcision -- beyond the 100% effect of the destruction of the preputial sphincter, the frenulum, and the Meissner's corpuscles and the foreskin's unique gliding action -- but specifically in terms of the risks of bleeding, infection, adhesions, meatal stenosis, and death.

Just to take one example -- 10% of circumcised boys will suffer from meatal stenosis. This is unquestionably a side effect of circumcision as intact boys don't get it. So I think you need to do more research on the harms of circ -- www.cirp.org is a good place to look for medical papers on this.

Now, just as a thought exercise, set up the same decision tree with the exact same factors for circumcising a girl. Because when you get down to it, circumcision really isn't all that different between the genders, because our genitals are far more alike than they are different. They grow from the same fetal tissue structures, differentiating only when sex hormone production kicks in, but every part on the male has an analogous part on the female.

I'm suggesting this in all non-snarkiness -- because when it comes right down to it, circumcision is a purely cultural surgery, just as female genital cutting in places like Africa is purely cultural. Since the 19th century, when it began for non-religious reasons in Victorian-era society in the UK and the US for the explicit purpose of decreasing sexual pleasure, it has been enshrouded in medical legitimization and cultural mumbo-jumbo, but when you get down to it there is not a whole lot of difference between the girl getting her genitals cut with a dirty razor in an African village and a boy getting his genitals cut with a clean scalpel in an American hospital. The risk of infection may be (slightly) less in the hospital, but the pain and suffering are similar as are the lifelong physical after-effects.

Consider that the US is the only advanced nation that circumcises for non-religious reasons, and the medical societies in other countries without a long-standing cultural tradition of circumcision are far less neutral in their statements that circumcision has no benefits outweighing its demonstrated harms. That should tell you that this is a cultural issue, not a medical/scientific one.

[2xy]

I know you say you're already on the "against" side of the fence, but I wanted to emphasize some points:

Originally Posted by LeahMeryl

Lots of "good" things in life hurt a little, so if everything else points in the direction of circumcision, the short-term pain and discomfort won't affect our decision. (Personally, I have a hard time believing those who say that infants don't feel the procedure, but I'm not letting the short-term pain affect our long-term decision.)

Newborn circumcision does not "hurt a little". It's excruciating and frequently causes infants to go into shock. The trauma can also harm the breastfeeding relationship. Babies who are quiet through the procedure are the ones who are in shock; it's not that they don't feel it.

I'm not sure I believe that there is a quantified medical harm to it either.

More newborns die from being circumcised than from being left intact. More males develop complications from being circumcised than from being left intact. Even in a circumcision performed "well," the procedure creates scarring, keratinization of the glans, and removes more than 20,000 nerve endings and miles worth of blood vessels.

How important is it that a boy's penis look like his dad's?

A little boy's genitalia and a grown man's genitalia look so incredibly different in so many ways that the presence or lack of foreskin is not the first thing they notice. How important would it be to you for you and a potential daughter to have the same size and shape of breasts? Would you engage in surgery to accomplish that?

Is it true that the uncircumcised penis is more sensitive and experiences more pleasure than the circumcised penis?

See my above comment about 20,000 nerve endings. Also, leaving the glans exposed to air and to rub against clothing makes it tough. The head of the penis is supposed to be moist and soft, like your gum tissue. It's not supposed to be dry like the palm of your hand.

Would a kid feel uncomfortable in the locker room if everyone else is cut? Probably.

I think anyone would be uncomfortable with other people staring at their genitals. If I was a boy in a locker room, and other boys were commenting on my penis, I would ask them why they were checking me out.

FWIW, more and more boys are left whole every year. Your son is not likely to be the only intact boy in the locker room.

I would also recommend watching a circ video if you haven't already.

[Storm Bride]

Just off the top of my head, I want to quickly address two of these:

Originally Posted by LeahMeryl

(5) Hubby is circumcised -- How important is it that a boy's penis look like his dad's? I have to think long and hard about this one. How would I feel if I were the dad? I guess father and son will spend a limited portion of their lives together naked comparing their junk. Hubby probably feels differently than I do, but I don't think looking the same down there warrants the procedure. So that's a second strike against circumcision.

It doesn't matter how you'd feel if you were the dad. It matters how you'd feel if you were the son. I can tell you that if any of my body parts were cut off so that I could look like my mom, I'd be really pissed. I truly feel the whole "I want my son to look like me" thing comes from a place of being wounded. What man wants to think there's something wrong with his penis??

(7) What will his peers think? While I had several partners myself, I've never been with anyone who wasn't circumcised. Would it be weird? I think it would be. Would a kid feel uncomfortable in the locker room if everyone else is cut? Probably. We're all so self-conscious as adolescents already, would un-cut make things worse? Then again, isn't uncut by definition longer, and therefore something of pride to guys? Is it wrong to cave into peer pressure that my kid MIGHT experience 12 years from now? Honestly, I can't decide on this one, so no strikes for or against.

1) The locker room is largely a myth. It may happen on occasion, but it's just not common...and the few boys I've heard of who have had it happen have found a simple, "why are you looking at my penis?" type response very effective.

2) Yes, it's wrong to cut off a body part, in order to avoid possible teasing 12 (or so) years from now. Children/teens tease each other. It's a fact of life. I shudder to think how many surgical scars I'd have if my parents had done surgery on me to prevent each possible cause of teasing (lazy eye, unusually shaped feet, large and asymmetrical breasts, etc.)

3) More and more boys are being left intact, so your son could just as easily find himself in a locker room where he was teased for being circ'd, as teased for being intact.

4) Why would it be weird to have sex with a man whose penis had not been surgically altered? I've never done it, because the parents of the vast majority of guys my age (I'm 42) didn't give me the opportunity. However, I do know a few women who have been with both intact and circ'd men. And, every one of them says sex is better with a man who is intact, hands down. I've actually talked to women who say they won't ever be intimate with a circ'd man again, because of the added discomfort (and in some cases, pain). So...if my sons were circ'd, they may miss out on a relationship with someone who doesn't like painful sex. As they're intact, they may miss out on a relationship with someone who thinks they have a "weird looking" penis. I know which I'd prefer, if I were a guy...

[whozeyermamma]

My DS born in June is intact and I had many of the same thoughts as you! (DH was initially pro-circ I was somehwat against. By birth we were both adamently against.)

One of the things that completely freaked me out about circ was that there is no reliable l of info on how many complications there are due to the procedure. The best thing I found was an article from the american academy of family practioners that said complications ranged from 1 to 35 percent.

A 1-3 risk of a complication for a procedure that is entirely "cosmetic" or socultural/religious was unacceptible to me.
th
Here's the link:
http://www.aafp.org/online/en/home/c...cumcision.html

Also- the circ rates are dropping - in some parts of the country to almost 50-50. I don't think the locker room thing is going to be much of an issue.

here is another link:

http://www.cirp.org/library/statistics/USA/

Good luck with your decision!

[rachelsmama]

Originally Posted by LeahMeryl

(7) What will his peers think? While I had several partners myself, I've never been with anyone who wasn't circumcised. Would it be weird? I think it would be. Would a kid feel uncomfortable in the locker room if everyone else is cut? Probably. We're all so self-conscious as adolescents already, would un-cut make things worse? Then again, isn't uncut by definition longer, and therefore something of pride to guys? Is it wrong to cave into peer pressure that my kid MIGHT experience 12 years from now? Honestly, I can't decide on this one, so no strikes for or against.

Chances are, he'll be more likely to be teased for being cut than for being intact. I know that at my brother's university, what little foreskin related teasing that happens is most definitely against the circumcised guys.

[texmati]

Originally Posted by LeahMeryl

I'm 29 weeks with my first and hubby and I are on the fence (although each of us leaning in opposing directions) as to whether or not to circumcise. Here's my thought process. Anyone see flaws or omissions?

(1) Religion -- Our religion is silent as to circumcision, so this is not an issue.

(2) Pain/Discomfort of procedure -- Lots of "good" things in life hurt a little, so if everything else points in the direction of circumcision, the short-term pain and discomfort won't affect our decision. (Personally, I have a hard time believing those who say that infants don't feel the procedure, but I'm not letting the short-term pain affect our long-term decision.)

(3) Cost -- like the pain thing, this won't affect my decision. Not sure if insurance covers it or not, but if it's something we decide we want done, we'll pay for it if we have to.

(4) Medical benefits/harms -- Based on hours upon hours of internet reading and the Mothering Magazine Circumcision reprint, I just don't believe there are medical benefits to the procedure. Then again, I'm not sure I believe that there is a quantified medical harm to it either. So, in my non-medical opinion, there is a tie between benefit and harm. This begs the question of why undergo a medical procedure that has not real medical benefits? I can't think of a good answer to that one, so that's one strike against circumcision.

(5) Hubby is circumcised -- How important is it that a boy's penis look like his dad's? I have to think long and hard about this one. How would I feel if I were the dad? I guess father and son will spend a limited portion of their lives together naked comparing their junk. Hubby probably feels differently than I do, but I don't think looking the same down there warrants the procedure. So that's a second strike against circumcision.

(6) Pleasure -- Is it true that the uncircumcised penis is more sensitive and experiences more pleasure than the circumcised penis? I guess it's all relative, but I certainly wouldn't want to take that away from my boy. Another strike against it.

(7) What will his peers think? While I had several partners myself, I've never been with anyone who wasn't circumcised. Would it be weird? I think it would be. Would a kid feel uncomfortable in the locker room if everyone else is cut? Probably. We're all so self-conscious as adolescents already, would un-cut make things worse? Then again, isn't uncut by definition longer, and therefore something of pride to guys? Is it wrong to cave into peer pressure that my kid MIGHT experience 12 years from now? Honestly, I can't decide on this one, so no strikes for or against.

(8) Hygiene - I don't buy any of the hygiene arguments, one way or the other.

(9) Personal choice - Of course, I have the "right" to make this decision, but does that mean I should make it or am I better off letting my child decide when he's the appropriate age? What guy would ever decide to undergo this (for a non-medical reason) in the future? Then again, doesn't that answer the question? What guy would choose to have this done to himself as an adult? Another strike against circumcision.

So, I guess that's where I fall out. Four strikes against circumcision and no points in favor of. Have I missed any important issues? I plan to present this thought process to my hubby soon, so I'd really appreciate input.

Thanks!

For number 7, the majority of boys in the world are uncirced. The majority of women in the world are sleeping with intact boys. What if you move, or what if he moves to Europe when he's older? I'd hate for my son to feel 'left out' or for their partner to have a less satisfying experience because I decided to have him cut. If you leave him whole, the decision would be up to him.

for number 6, yes, I believe that it's true. that's somethng to think about 100% of boys who are circed have a loss in sensation.

[Qbear'smama]

I agree with PPs who said you are underestimating the pain factor. Because there are so many nerve endings there, the pain is considerable, just ask a grown man who has been circd, apparently it's EXCRUCIATING!!!! Like you said, OP, what guy would want to go through that for no reason? That is the bottom line for me, why on God's earth would I do something that painful to my little guy for no convincing reason? I am due with a boy in December and DH asked me if I wanted to do it and I was like "why would we?" and he thought about it and said, "hmmm, no good reason, really." and that was the end of the conversation. If DS asks why his penis is different from Daddy's I'll tell him the truth: because when daddy was a baby a doctor cut part of his penis off and we didn't want to do that to him. I am sure he'll be grateful!!!!!!

[Fyrestorm]

It's not your penis....He has to live with what you choose to do to him. Why not just let the person who is going to be living with it decide what to do to it. You have to deal with it for a few years...he has to deal with it for the rest of his life. Why would your 3 years outweigh his human rights and his and his partners sexual pleasure for the rest of his life?

[billikengirl]

#7 was one of my husband's main "arguments" (insert eyeroll here). I still can't believe that he could, with a straight face, argue that making his son's penis aesthetically pleasing to other boys was a valid reason for risking bleeding, infection, accidental amputation and death.

Protect your son, mama. It is likely that his dad is not coming from a rational place on this issue, so reason may not sway him. It is your right and obligation to protect that defenseless baby, even from his father if necessary. Don't let anyone tell you that you don't have the right to make waves in your marriage in order to protect your son (that's what pro-circ people told me). My husband is not "over it" but my son's body is not a marital bargaining chip.

[LionessMom]

i regret circ'ing my son. please dont do it. i have read studies that say it causes lifelong mental health issues. post traumatic stress to be precise. i firmly believe it caused the rift in my relationship with my son and caused him to be oppositional and defiant his whole life. it hurts, they are in pain and no one NO ONE saves him from it. they have no room for trust anymore. the brain is set up for a lifetime of not trusting other people. bc at the moment that they were the most vulnerable and in need they were let down in the most horrible way ever. their most sensitive place was hurt in an excruciating way, and they cried for their mom to save them and they never came. i let my son down like that and i will live with that hurt in my heart for the rest of my life. he is 15 now and i still come to tears writing about it or talking about it. please do not do that to your son.

[philomom]

5) A breadwinning dad has few chances to bathe naked with his son. My son and his father have bathed together only twice in 15 years. Both times at the beach... one of "I gotta get this sand off" kind of situations. Never did my son say a word about his dad's penis.

7) My hubby is cut. We have pretty good relations but I want to say, I've been with an intact guy and it was very nice. Softer and velvety-er somehow. Marathon sex was no problem with this guy because I didn't get sore. So its not just the guy's pleasure.. its the pleasure he can give someday.

[brant31]

Originally Posted by LionessMom

i regret circ'ing my son. please dont do it. i have read studies that say it causes lifelong mental health issues. post traumatic stress to be precise. i firmly believe it caused the rift in my relationship with my son and caused him to be oppositional and defiant his whole life.

I don't usually bring it up, but your post reminded me of something my old college roommate uttered about 5 years ago. I was staying at their lovely home and at one point they asked how my volunteer work with circumcision education was going. Their elder son, my first godson, was the first time - of about 30 now that I know of - that I changed a child's course (parents were set to automatically circ until I spoke with them heart-to-heart). I said it was fine, and mentioned the latest symposium and health fair I'd attended.

The next day we were having a barbecue with friends and someone commented on how remarkable my buddy's 2 boys are (they were then 15 and 9). The parents were flattered. Both boys are straight-A students, top athletes, and absolute gentlemen. They have never raised their voices in my presence and have never talked back to their parents. They're extremely popular, too.

My friend leaned over the grill and said to me, "Well, maybe that's what you get when you don't start them out in life by cutting off the ends of their penises." That's not necessarily a point I would make, but it was great to hear this from a friend who was initially skeptical about keeping his sons intact.

[Fellow Traveler]

Originally Posted by LeahMeryl

(5) Hubby is circumcised -- How important is it that a boy's penis look like his dad's? I have to think long and hard about this one. How would I feel if I were the dad? I guess father and son will spend a limited portion of their lives together naked comparing their junk. Hubby probably feels differently than I do, but I don't think looking the same down there warrants the procedure. So that's a second strike against circumcision.
Thanks!

Every time I see this one, I think of this Penn and Teller clip:

(NSFW)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yRFN...eature=related

[tammylsmith]

Dh was really against me the whole time I was pregnant with ds. He fought it so hard, and was really skeptical right up to the end. Once we got there though, his mind completely changed. He had no idea what he was really fighting for until he held his son and realized it wasn't about daddy's penis being "wrong", it was about a tiny baby, who was born perfect already.

[2xy]

Originally Posted by Qbear'smama

I agree with PPs who said you are underestimating the pain factor. Because there are so many nerve endings there, the pain is considerable, just ask a grown man who has been circd, apparently it's EXCRUCIATING!!!!

And a grown man has many advantages during a circumcision. First, the foreskin is already retractable, so it should just be one incision going around. And they get anesthesia as well as post-op medication.

A baby's foreskin has to be torn away from the glans, like peeling an orange or ripping off a fingernail, THEN it gets cut or crushed away. They have not only a painful incision, but the entire head of the penis is one raw wound. Ooh....and they get that yummy sugar-coated pacifier to take the edge off.

[trauerweidchen]

I think you and other posters have covered the issues pretty well. I'd just add (in response to #9) that I, personally, have come to believe that it really isn't our right as parents to choose circumcision for our sons, unless it's truly a last resort for a severe medical problem (extremely rare). It's an intensely personal decision and irrevocable (restoration aside); if he's really bothered by being intact as an adult, he can make an informed decision when he's of age, and take proper painkillers.

My DH is intact and we didn't have to go through much of a decision making process since we were on the same page from day one; my DS's intact penis is easy to care for because the foreskin protects it, and I personally find an intact penis more attractive than a circumcised one.

Good luck to you, and congratulations on your baby!

[homebirthing]

A lot of people don't know that the head (glans) of the penis is an INTERNAL ORGAN!!

It is a mucous membrane, and is not suppose to be outside of the body, it is supposed to be fully covered. Circumcision removes this barrier and the only way for the body to "fix" this is to develope a thick callous over the head (glans) of the penis.

And when presented with the "look like dad" argument, I simply ask the father...

"Do you feel that it is important that you look like YOUR dad? Do you have a time every year to make sure that your penises match?" The answer (after laughter) is always "eww" and "no". That takes away that argument.

[blessedwithboys]

Originally Posted by LionessMom

i regret circ'ing my son. please dont do it. i have read studies that say it causes lifelong mental health issues. post traumatic stress to be precise. i firmly believe it caused the rift in my relationship with my son and caused him to be oppositional and defiant his whole life. it hurts, they are in pain and no one NO ONE saves him from it. they have no room for trust anymore. the brain is set up for a lifetime of not trusting other people. bc at the moment that they were the most vulnerable and in need they were let down in the most horrible way ever. their most sensitive place was hurt in an excruciating way, and they cried for their mom to save them and they never came. i let my son down like that and i will live with that hurt in my heart for the rest of my life. he is 15 now and i still come to tears writing about it or talking about it. please do not do that to your son.

me, too to all of that (((hugs)))