Improving accommodation of inlaws for the sake of a grandchild - Page 2

[That Is Nice]

Maybe DH and I are freaks. Or losers. I don't know. It seems like a lot of people have pretty nice set ups with king size beds, 5 bedroom houses, and tvs and stuff.

I don't know. Where did I go wrong? I went to college, I have a career, I work in a decent enough field, I have a professional job. I just haven't ever had the money for these sorts of things.

I've never traveled. Anywhere. I don't own really anything nice. I can't see where we will have money at any point for a pool, a grill, a sectional, 5 bedrooms, or any of that stuff.

We do live, I guess, in a high cost area with high taxes. I mean, we pay over $6,000 a year in real estate taxes. It's a huge chunk of cash every year that I worry we won't be able to pay.

We are debt free, other than our mortgage and a tiny bit left on my student loan (very, very small now after paying it down for years).

Where did I go wrong??

I know that DH doesn't make that good of money, but it's not bad. We're not bad with our money - we just don't make enough and having a child has been expensive and drained down the savings we once had.

I'm starting to feel like we're losers. I mean, yes, I did say earlier part of this is philosophy. I truly don't believe in owning a lot of crap, but also the philosophy is living within our means, and to do that, well, we just can't buy a lot of stuff.

Are we losers??

Or do people have more debt than us? Honestly, how are you guys all paying for this stuff?

[savithny]

Originally Posted by MeepyCat

Okay, so this here? This is the elephant in the room.

Your FIL is not a recovering alcoholic. He's still drinking. He's an alcoholic, full stop.

Alcoholism can seriously warp family relationships. And while I don't think the blame lies entirely on either side here, I do think you need to re-examine your expectations concerning these people in light of this illness.

As someone whose late MIL was a drunk until shortly before #1 was born and then a dry-drunk who stopped drinking but never addrssed the underlying issues, I have to say OMG YES.

YES YES YES.

My MIL was probably a nice woman underneath, but she had issues on top of issues on top of issues, and the #1 issue was that she loved the bottle more than her children as they grew up, meaning that DH's younger brother has some serious attachment issues that continue to affect his life.

One thing many alcoholics (and their codependent partners) do is play their children off against each other. MIL used to communicate her hurt feelings and resentments in a series of "telephone games." SHe'd call BIL and talk about how awful DH and I were, with the expectation that he'd relay the message. "I had to spent ALL NIGHT reassuring Mom you still love her!" we'd be greeted. She'd talk to me all rationally about how she udnerstood that DH's chosen career meant we couldn't live closer to her ... and then rail at him for marrying me because if he'd married one specific friend from high school they'd have moved back home, but *I* was keeping us away....

Years of her telling BIL one thing and DH another, playing them against each other, playing on BIL's insecure attachment by outright telling him she was his favorite, but then always talking about DH and how great his job was and how great his life was to BIL to make him feel bad about himself and where he'd gotten with his life. Then she'd talk to DH and describe BIL's great house and all the work he was doing on it -- and how many presents BIL had given her, and how much work he'd done on *her* house.... back and forth.


You're asking fairness of someone who is not going to be playing fair and may be incapable of playing fair. In another place I saw you said something about "it may not be required but its 'expected.'"

I think "Expectations" get a lot of people into a lot of hurt. It's easy to say "it's expected" or "I expect" but honestly, your expectations mean exactly nothing in the best of cases, and in the case of an actively drinking alcoholic they mean even less. It's funny, "expectations" gets used a lot in literature going way back, and in the 18th and 19th centuries, it's often used to describe people spending money they didn't have in advance of an inheritance they assumed was coming - and often wasn't. Nowadays it's often used to describe relationship issues in which people do not communicate their needs clearly and wind up getting hurt. In both those usages, expectations are a negative thing to have -- they're a sign that the person with the expectations is overrreaching what is reasonable to expect.

My MIL had "Expectations." She felt entitled to support. She got Alimony in a 1992 divorce -- almost no one gets alimony anymore. She turned down jobs repeatedly because they were "beneath her," (and told her friend, who had worked a 2nd job at a drugstore for years, about this). She was bitter to her sons for not doing enough to fix up her house. She greeted DH on his last visit to her with "What you paid for this car could have paid for all my cancer treatments." (it was a freakin' Ford Taurus, and the first car we'd bought in 10 years). Alcoholics have a LOT of EXPECTATIONS themselves -- and often use the failure of others to meet those expectations as justification for drinking. Don't buy into the "Expectations" game.

[annettemarie]

We don't have a spare bedroom. We don't even have room for all of us in our house, LOL, and are getting our attic made into a bedroom. Our in-laws come up every other month or so and stay at a hotel (they pay). They do it because they want to spend time with us and our children. I don't think you all are losers, but I also think your in-laws just don't want to put forth the effort, for whatever reason. You could probably live in a mansion and they'd still find a reason not to visit. It sucks, but you can't dictate what other people do.

[That Is Nice]

Originally Posted by MeepyCat

Okay, so let's reframe this a little and see if it changes how you think about these people.

Your MIL and FIL enjoy visits to their other son, who enables their addiction.

You won't enable that addiction, because you know that it's a disease that harms your in-laws and has the potential to harm your family. (Go ahead and judge, btw. Buying drinks for an alcoholic is a *horrible* thing to do.)

For an alcoholic, drinking is the most important thing. It's more important their job, their family, or the function of their own liver. Your FIL may be miserable about what his disease is doing to his life, or he may be in total denial about it. Until and unless he decides to change, your family is never going to be more important to him than his next drink.

For what it's worth, your BIL's family isn't more important to him than that next drink either. At the moment, that family is enabling the disease, which is comfortable for your in-laws and helps them deny that they have a problem.

You know better. They have a problem. They've decided not to face up to it, even if it means that they lose out on the loving relationships they could have. This loss is the result of their choice and their action, but they would probably prefer for you to believe otherwise, to believe them when they try to tell you that grandparental love could be your child's if only you would pony up for a few six packs. At a guess, if you watched your in-laws with their other son's family, the situation wouldn't look as rosy as you are hearing it is. There's a big difference between loving someone and being just as happy to drink near them as you are to drink elsewhere.

Yeah.

The bolded part is something DH says to me all the time.

It breaks my heart. I don't know if it's true or not, but probably it is. And in a lot of ways, I really feel for my SIL because I honestly would not want my inlaws to come to my home for a whole week every 4 weeks with the drinking and the smoking (FIL more than MIL). MIL is better and good with the kids, I think. FIL - depends on the day.

It's such a crappy situation. I mean, I don't want to sell out FIL and his problems. They are real problems. I'm sure I could accommodate him more and things would be better. But I see that as enabling, to an extent, and that's just something I'm not doing as the daughter of an alcoholic.

And I guess no grandpa is better than a drunk grandpa? But maybe not. I don't know.

I do have compassion for my FIL. I want to be understanding...hard when we're always getting overlooked and short shrifted.

But you are right...it might be more about the addiction.

[choli]

Originally Posted by savannah smiles

I only have one sister who happens to be childfree by choice but if she were to ever have kids, I have little doubt that my mom would favor them over mine. Because she likes and gets along with my sister much better than me. She already visits and stays with her more often, even though I live 6 hours aways and my sister lives 8 hours away. My sister's guest room has a rather uncomfortable bed and her house is next to an Army airfield where helicopters often land.

I think my sister could live in a sod house and my mom would stay there over my place. My mom has a much higher comfort level with my sister and that is why time and resources go to her over me.

Just thought I'd share my story with you.

I have three siblings. My mother very little interest in any of the grandchildren except those of one sister. She freely admits that she likes those grandchildren best because they have the same color hair as she herself does. They are the red haired golden children rather than the red haired step children

We just roll our eyes...what can you do? She's not nasty to the rest of our kids, she just prefers my sister's kids for what appears to be a very superficial reason.

[MeepyCat]

I'm going to say this loud, in the hopes it gets through.

IT'S NOT YOU. THE PROBLEM IS THAT THEY'RE ALCOHOLICS.

The reason your in-laws are rejecting you is not that there is anything wrong with your house or your stuff. I don't promise that your house or your stuff are perfect. I do promise that the house and the stuff are not what's causing you problems here.

[annettemarie]

Originally Posted by choli

I have three siblings. My mother very little interest in any of the grandchildren except those of one sister. She freely admits that she likes those grandchildren best because they have the same color hair as she herself does. They are the red haired golden children rather than the red haired step children

We just roll our eyes...what can you do? She's not nasty to the rest of our kids, she just prefers my sister's kids for what appears to be a very superficial reason.

Yep. My dad and stepmom come up once a year. They drive three hours, stay an hour, and then drive back home. Sometimes we see them back in our hometown, but not often. My mom? Even less. She lives farther away. However, she sees my sister all the time, has her kids at her beach house all the time, spends money on vacations and stuff all the time. My kids don't get birthday cards and we're lucky if she remembers Christmas. But what are you going to do? You can't dictate how other people spend their time and money. You can be disappointed, but it's not like you can rewire them.

[That Is Nice]

Originally Posted by choli

She freely admits that she likes those grandchildren best because they have the same color hair as she herself does.

Oh my God? Seriously? She admitted that? Out loud? To you? She likes the grandchildren who look like her better?

Maybe that is part of what's going on here! My son, except for his coloring, looks like me. His hair color and complexion come from his dad's side, but the bone structure, face, physical features, eyes are me, me, me. Maybe that is why they don't like him.

By contrast, his cousin the same age whom they visit frequently is the spitting image of BIL who looks like FIL.

Interesting!

I don't know how much weight this has, but you might be on to something. I mean, I wouldn't be surprised, I guess!

[That Is Nice]

Originally Posted by MeepyCat

I'm going to say this loud, in the hopes it gets through.

IT'S NOT YOU. THE PROBLEM IS THAT THEY'RE ALCOHOLICS.

The reason your in-laws are rejecting you is not that there is anything wrong with your house or your stuff. I don't promise that your house or your stuff are perfect. I do promise that the house and the stuff are not what's causing you problems here.

Just FIL is the alcoholic. MIL just likes to kick back with mixed drinks or a beer now and then. She's not an alcoholic.

Both MIL and FIL are swimming pool-aholics and tv-aholics, though. Sort of. They really, really like BIL's set up.

[Drummer's Wife]

TIN, I don't think you are losers (well, I have some choice words about your DH). In fact, I admire you b/c you have a college degree, no debt, a career, etc. I don't have any of that - and I didn't have a rough upbringing at all, like you did.

For us, we lived in crappy apartments for years - until DH, who doesn't have a degree either, got a job offer within his company to transfer to a lower COL area, and we live in a large, 5-bedroom new home due to luck, more than anything. Really. We got a great deal, and he commutes to the big city for his job. My DH works hard, and I have been a SAHM for 10 years - even in poverty - but his promotion and our relocation just happened to work out for our family in a positive way. FWIW, if we lived where you live, we'd be lucky to afford a studio apartment - with our four wild and crazy kids crammed into it. We haven't used credit cards for almost 8 years, BTW - just had to mention that b/c things like our LCD TV were bought with cash. I don't think you should go into debt for your IL's - for shoes for your DS, yes, but not to "lure" them to your home.

I do actually think (I hope) my IL's would come visit and even stay with us (or get a hotel) if we had a smaller, not-so-nice place. I think this b/c they love their son, and they love their grandchildren. If they didn't enjoy our company, then I assume they would only see us when we made the trip to Denver to see both sides of our families.

ETA: I am not familiar with alcoholics, really, so I don't know that even if your FIL was one, that that is why they don't visit. I mean, he can drive himself to the liquor store, can't he? I would assume an alcoholic wouldn't let not having free drinks stop them, but what do I know.

[zeldamomma]

You have no way of knowing why your ILs make the choices they do. I wonder if your SIL is their daughter? People are often more comfortable in their daughter's home than their married son's home. My Dad's parents spent a LOT more time with their daughter's family than ours, and it wasn't hurtful, it was just a reflection of the kind of relationship they had with their daughter compared with their son & dil (they got along fine with my Dad, but it wasn't a touchy-feely relationship and they LOVED my mom, she just wasn't their daughter, KWIM?) So we would generally see them a few days a year, and they would visit my cousins a ton, and it was fine. It never occurred to me to compare the visits and look for fairness. They had a special relationship with their daughter, and they are allowed to have that, and to act on it.

[That Is Nice]

Originally Posted by Drummer's Wife

TIN, I don't think you are losers (well, I have some choice words about your DH). In fact, I admire you b/c you have a college degree, no debt, a career, etc. I don't have any of that - and I didn't have a rough upbringing at all, like you did.

For us, we lived in crappy apartments for years - until DH, who doesn't have a degree either, got a job offer within his company to transfer to a lower COL area, and we live in a large, 5-bedroom new home due to luck, more than anything. Really. My DH works hard, and I have a been a SAHM for 10 years - even in poverty - but his promotion and our relocation just happened to work out for our family in a positive way. FWIW, if we lived where you live, we'd be lucky to afford a studio apartment - with our four wild and crazy kids crammed into it.

I do actually think (I hope) my IL's would come visit and even stay with us (or get a hotel) if we had a smaller, not-so-nice place. I think this b/c they love their son, and they love their grandchildren. If they didn't enjoy our company, then I assume they would only see us when we made the trip to Denver to see both sides of our families.

Thanks. I'm glad the move worked out so well for you. Cost of living does make a huge difference. I'll see the magazine articles and city rankings and such in like Money Magazine or Forbes and I fantasize about moving to say, Indiana where you can still buy a house for less than$150k.

I really, really want to sell our house and live in an apartment for a while. Of course, then MIL and FIL would never visit. I just don't like spending so much money and I want to be able to live closer to work. Unfortunately, all the houses one could buy near where I work are like $100,000 out of our price range, minimum.

I am not even in love with our city that much. I like it. I wish DH would agree to look for higher paying jobs elsewhere and consider moving. We're not getting ahead and are barely making ends meet here.

That's a whole other issue though.

Thanks for posting.

[That Is Nice]

Originally Posted by zeldamomma

You have no way of knowing why your ILs make the choices they do. I wonder if your SIL is their daughter? People are often more comfortable in their daughter's home than their married son's home.

Nope!

MIL and FIL have three boys. DH and two brothers.

SIL is related to them the same way as me, through marriage.

Each brother has two children of their own, except DH. He has one child. So, five grandchildren total. MIL and FIL aren't fair to BIL1's children, either. In fact, they do less for them than for my son. It's very, very imbalanced.

(BIL1 is FIL's son, MIL's step son - and my favorite in the family. A really nice guy and a good dad and with a very different personality from DH and his full brother who are a lot alike). DH and his other brother are full brothers. Both FIL and MIL were married twice: once to other people, once to each other and that marriage has lasted more than 30 years. MIL only has her two sons, no children from her first marriage.

MIL and FIL are sort of loners. They never really had many friends and they didn't keep in contact with their own families, really, except for MIL's parents, now deceased, who were quite involved.

MIL now is sort of breaking out of her shell and getting some friends, but for years and years they didn't have friends. I think maybe FIL's alcoholism got in the way of that and they're both sort of introverted. MIL is sort of aloof, even with SIL at times, although I think SIL tries really, really hard to have a good relationship. There have been times SIL has spoken up about things and disagreed with MIL, and it's ended badly for SIL. MIL isn't very open minded during disagreements.

That's just some filler on the backstory.

It's interesting family dynamics to me.

FIL doesn't really keep in touch with anyone, but tags along on trips with MIL to visit the other family because it's like a vacation to them, they get along pretty well with SIL and BIL2, and because MIL can't leave FIL alone or he'll drink.

MIL and I used to get along until I started pointing out the imbalances and asking for improvements. Now she's basically catty all the time and ignores me. MIL keeps in touch sort of with DH and with BIL2 (her full sons) and to a lesser extend BIL1 (the nice guy).

FIL and MIL almost never see BIL2's children - this has been going on for years and years. Recently, they've made some changes for the better there. I doubt it was because I said anything because they do not listen to me, but after I said something about how they needed to treat those kids better, MIL and FIL spent some time with them. Whatever the reason, it's about time!!

FIL and MIL dote on BIL2's kids. That's who they visit the most and fly out to see all the time. Weeks and weeks every year. BIL2's kids are the same age as my son. MIL and SIL get along pretty well, but mostly it's because SIL tries really hard and overlooks things MIL might say unless it's something really out of line. A few times they've argued and MIL isn't very open to any criticism whatsoever of her sons.

FIL is the alcoholic and BIL2 is pissed about things from childhood. So, FIL tries to make up for that (my impression).

That's it in a nutshell. I really like BIL1 and SIL is nice, too. BIL2 can be aloof but has been fun at times. MIL is very hard to get to know and aloof and FIL I used to get along with, but again, he describes himself as a loner and he doesn't really talk to anymore in a family setting.

[meemee]

the more you write about your inlaws the more i think. do you really want your son to know these people? just coz they are the only gparents that probably your son will know (your mom and stepdad? having their issues)?!!!

except for the money part i kinda think its good riddance to bad rubbish.

it would be nice if they threw you a few $$$$s now and then, but it seems like they dont want to. they dont have to visit. they could send your son at least gift cards. but they wont even do that.

how was their relationship with your dh before you guys got married. was it strained even then?

bottom line is - and it may hurt to hear the truth - but you yourself said it in many words - that they just dont like you and dont want to be involved with you or your son and now that you are married not even your dh.

a hard pill to swallow - but that's how it is. and it also seems like there is no love lost between your dh and them. it doesnt seem like he would welcome their visit. from what you have written so far.

and i am quite certain SIL hopes they dont come over so often. i cant imagine an alcoholic gpa being welcome into a home with growing children.

[That Is Nice]

Originally Posted by meemee

how was their relationship with your dh before you guys got married. was it strained even then?

My relationship with MIL and FIL pre-marriage?

Well, it wasn't strained like this but it wasn't cozy or close either.

[meemee]

nah i asked how was their relationship with their son your dh before he even met you?

were they taking sides even then. did they even then prefer his brother to him?

i know money is an issue but is there even a possiblitiy that dh could go visit them with ds for 3 or 4 days. i know your son is 4.5 years old. is he old enough to separate from you? if they then gave your dh some money would you know about it? your dh does get 2 weeks vacation and he isnt helping out so what is he using his vacation for?

would your inlaws be willing to put up your dh and ds for a few days? would you trust your dh with your ds for those days. would dh even be willing to do that.

it seems when you are away on a conference for a few days those are the days your dh could take off and take ds for a visit to gpa and gma. or better still while you are home so you get a break to catch up.

perhaps they prefer your bil's house is coz they are enablers and you are not. as simple as that.

[cycle]

I am going to say this gently and I honestly mean no snark at all by it; I really think you should talk to a therapist. It is not healthy for you to be so fixated on this issue with your in-laws. They are not going to change, they are allowed to have make their own decisions even if you don't think they are fair or they lack etiquette. The amount of time you have spent on this subject with so many people telling you over and over to let it go, or that maybe they just don't like visiting, or whatever, and you don't accept any of it, it is disturbing. You are obsessed with this issue and it isn't healthy. You are not in an unusual situation, $6000 for taxes is not a huge amount of money in the area I live, thats nothing. Being a working parent with no outside support from family is not unusual, having a husband who doesn't pull his weight around the house, again, not unusual. I really mean this sincerely, you are not hearing what anyone is saying to you, you are asking for advice but you are rejecting it, I really think you should seek help dealing with this issue and the other issues weighing you down.

[savithny]

Gently, I'm going to put this out there.

As you are the adult child of an alcoholic, I think it is possible that your expectations are, in turn, being fueled by growing up in that kind of dynamic as well. Your expectations about money and support seem to come from the same place, in many ways, that my BIL's expectations that he would have to take care of his mother financially even when she was physically able to work. They're the flipside of the way some alcoholics dole out gifts to manipulate the people around them.

In other words, I would suggest that it might be good for you, personally, to spend some time examining your own feelings about the relationship between love and material goods, and the way those feelings were shaped by your own family life.

The number of people agreeing that your expectations about money, time, and attention input are perhaps unrealistic is an indicator that maybe those expectations are not coming from shared societal standards as much as from some empty space inside you that was left by your upbringing.

[That Is Nice]

Originally Posted by meemee

nah i asked how was their relationship with their son your dh before he even met you?

were they taking sides even then. did they even then prefer his brother to him?

i know money is an issue but is there even a possiblitiy that dh could go visit them with ds for 3 or 4 days. i know your son is 4.5 years old. is he old enough to separate from you? if they then gave your dh some money would you know about it? your dh does get 2 weeks vacation and he isnt helping out so what is he using his vacation for?

would your inlaws be willing to put up your dh and ds for a few days? would you trust your dh with your ds for those days. would dh even be willing to do that.

it seems when you are away on a conference for a few days those are the days your dh could take off and take ds for a visit to gpa and gma.

Oh!

Yes, there was unfairness in how they treated their three sons. They've done very little for BIL1 (FIL's son, MIL's step son). That relationship has mended some, but there were times when they weren't speaking. I take BIL1's side. He's a good guy. FIL and MIL, IMO, have long been crappy grandparents to BIL1's kids. It's sad.

DH they are sometimes OK with, but they have always done more for BIL2. There are few glaring examples over the years, before kids. DH thinks it has more to do with BIL2 being the baby of the family, etc.

Could DH and DS visit them? Yes. But FIL is a chain smoker and DS has asthma so I've sort of put my foot down on that. Every time I go to MIL and FIL's house I get sick - cold like symptoms, coughing, wheezing, sneezing. I don't want DS spending overnights there. My choice, I know. And choices have consequences.

[That Is Nice]

Originally Posted by cycle

I am going to say this gently and I honestly mean no snark at all by it.

A few threads and posts, even 20 threads, doesn't mean fixation. I mean, I go about my day, get up, get dressed, drop off my kid at daycare, go to work, get involved in work, pick up my kid, go home, run errands, clean up, go to bed, rinse and repeat.

I'm not sitting at home in the closet thinking about my inlaws. I have a full life. Too full.

I wrote in to a forum of other parents to get ideas and perspective because - honestly - I don't feel I've been a terrible daughter-in-law to these people, and I feel like they could and should - and have said they would - do things for my son, and they haven't, and in my circle of working-mother friends I see how much different those inlaws are and in my circle of playgroup friends I see how much support their is from their inlaws and I think what the heck? What is going on with my inlaws? And they do so much for BIL and SIL who have more resources than we do and I think, boy, this situation sure could use a change.

It's not fixation.

Trust me, I'm not sitting at home glowering all day thinking of them. I'm living my life and meeting my responsibilities to pay the $6,000 taxes. And the mortgage, and the bills, and all that.

I'm just thinking about them in small snippets of time to figure out a way to evoke some change.