Math, Math, Math

[VisionaryMom]

I posted my math plan a while back, and a number of people thought perhaps I was doing too much too quickly. I have not hit a ceiling with DS(5) yet. I know there are things he doesn't know, but I explain them once. He does one example, and then he gets them all right.

We've gone through introducing fractions, (very basic) linear equations, advanced patterns, and introducing multiplication & division in the last week. Seriously. I don't know how to handle this issue (hesitating to call it a "problem").

He told me last night that he doesn't know how to tell time except on a digital clock, and that bothers him. "It makes me feels stupid because [older cousin] knows how to do it." So we're going to work on telling time tomorrow.

The other end is that he still has to think about some addition problems that I'd like him to just know off the top of his head, so there's this disconnect (to me) between the concepts he's capable of understanding (and later explaining to DH) and his ability to pull the facts from his mind immediately. I tried making him do worksheets of 25-30 math problems. He did about half in 5minutes or so and then said he wasn't doing more because they were starting to repeat themselves (which is true, but that was kind of the point). Help! I don't know what to do!

[sahmoffour]

I'm by no means an expert, but have been researching and trolling all homeschooling boards and have acquired quite a bit of good info under my belt from it. One thing that I've heard many times, is that even though a child may seem to know a topic such as addition, some parts of math really are about memorization. Another piece of advice I received is if a child is balking at too many questions when they really do need it, think of a new way for them to do the questions. Pull out your whiteboard, or your chalkboard, or go outside and do them on the driveway with sidewalk chalk, etc. Many times this works for my kids and changes things up when things get boring.

Also, what program are you using? Are you using spiral or mastery based? It may be that even though your child seems to understand at first, but just isn't quite "getting it" or having it stick, maybe he would learn better by using a different method of teaching? I use Math Mammoth for my kids, and LOVE it. Maybe, since your son seems to move at a faster speed, you could look at their Blue series of books which would allow your son to go at his own pace through each topic.

[kristin0713]

Have you looked at RightStart? The concepts are practiced mostly with games and there is a big emphasis on mental math. I would encourage you to check it out, it sounds like he would really flourish with it. http://www.alabacus.com/

[mom2ponygirl]

Okay, I'm going to go against the grain and say he doesn't need to practice his math facts at this point. Let him use them doing interesting problems and he will eventually learn them. If the lack of automaticity begins to bug him, play games to help him get them down.

Feed him with some cool math concepts - check out www.livingmath.net for great book suggestions at every math level. Eventually - once you have addition/subtraction with regrouping and mult/div fairly solid- begin with books like Primary Challenge math from Zaccaro and books for MOEMS from www.artofproblemsolving.com

I'd check out MEP math http://www.cimt.plymouth.ac.uk/projects/mep/default.htm
for fun free math activities
Zoombinis for a math/logic based computer game

I have a daughter who is now nearly 12. She devoured math early as well. Her facts were slower, particularly addition. She could multiply and divide fractions in her head faster than add! LOL She's still not a lightning fast processor, but considering that she kept 98+ averages in high school geometry and algebra 2 last year in a highly ranked charter high school, that hasn't hurt her much. We're back to homeschooling this year and having fun with math again - school was too repetitive and too slow.

Have fun and your son is right - skip the repetition. He doesn't need exercises - he needs interesting concepts to feed his brain and help develop focus, flexible thinking, and perseverance. :-)

[VisionaryMom]

Originally Posted by sahmoffour

Another piece of advice I received is if a child is balking at too many questions when they really do need it, think of a new way for them to do the questions.

He definitely does not have instant recall of the facts, but his real gripe is, I think, the handwriting. He hates writing things out, which I'm reading is fairly typical of a 5YO boy.

Originally Posted by sahmoffour

Also, what program are you using? Are you using spiral or mastery based? It may be that even though your child seems to understand at first, but just isn't quite "getting it" or having it stick, maybe he would learn better by using a different method of teaching?

He gets it. I don't mean this offensively, but it bothers me that people always assume that he doesn't really understand. He's advanced, and that's really the reason we're homeschooling in the first place. He understands that when you have x+8=12, you're solving for x and why you're doing that. He looks at it and tells me the answer - no need to write out steps, though he can tell them to you if you ask. He plays Sudoku & other "adult" math games. He's begging to learn chess, and I just haven't gotten there with him yet because...well, I'm exhausted!

My concern isn't about understanding concepts; it's about mastery of basic facts and whether I should focus on those when his abilities to understand concepts far exceed his command of facts.

Originally Posted by kristin0713

Have you looked at RightStart? The concepts are practiced mostly with games and there is a big emphasis on mental math. I would encourage you to check it out, it sounds like he would really flourish with it. http://www.alabacus.com/

Thanks for this suggestion. I'm thinking I may need a curriculum to fill in the blanks. I'm teaching using various curriculum lists I've found, but I'm sure we're missing a component here & there. It's also very hard to get him to want to SLOW.DOWN. to learn foundational concepts.

Originally Posted by mom2ponygirl

Okay, I'm going to go against the grain and say he doesn't need to practice his math facts at this point. Let him use them doing interesting problems and he will eventually learn them. If the lack of automaticity begins to bug him, play games to help him get them down.

Feed him with some cool math concepts - check out www.livingmath.net for great book suggestions at every math level. Eventually - once you have addition/subtraction with regrouping and mult/div fairly solid- begin with books like Primary Challenge math from Zaccaro and books for MOEMS from www.artofproblemsolving.com

I'd check out MEP math http://www.cimt.plymouth.ac.uk/projects/mep/default.htm
for fun free math activities
Zoombinis for a math/logic based computer game

I have a daughter who is now nearly 12. She devoured math early as well. Her facts were slower, particularly addition. She could multiply and divide fractions in her head faster than add! LOL She's still not a lightning fast processor, but considering that she kept 98+ averages in high school geometry and algebra 2 last year in a highly ranked charter high school, that hasn't hurt her much. We're back to homeschooling this year and having fun with math again - school was too repetitive and too slow.

Have fun and your son is right - skip the repetition. He doesn't need exercises - he needs interesting concepts to feed his brain and help develop focus, flexible thinking, and perseverance. :-)

Thanks! IIRC, your dd is profoundly gifted, yes? DS definitely is not at that level, but he is a math mind. I do need to look at some math-based books - mainly because he has no interest in learning to read over doing more math. I'm going to have to start using math as a reward.

DH, who has a math degree, is not as fast as I am with math facts. Clearly he knows them, but when it comes to, say 3+-digit addition, I get the answers faster in my head than he does. I think that extends to DS because DH seems less concerned about the math facts than I am.

I will talk to DS about this today and see what he thinks. He is pretty introspective, so he may have some thoughts.

[kanga2roo]

xx

[kathymuggle]

Originally Posted by VisionaryMom

My concern isn't about understanding concepts; it's about mastery of basic facts and whether I should focus on those when his abilities to understand concepts far exceed his command of facts.



.

I would focus on the concepts - he loves them, and they peak his interest in math. If he remains interested in math he will probably get them as he sees them: if he works out that 8x7 is 56 enough times he might memorise it. Even if he doesn't memorise it, it will probably not hinder him. My middle child (who is 11!) does not have all her multiplication memorised, but can figure things out. She uses number sense and problem solving to get the answer she needs. Ex I just asked her what 8X7 was - and she took about 5 seconds or less to answer. She multiplied 7x4 then doubled it.

TBH, I think a lot of early math (which isn't even math but arithmatic) is boring. i say this as someone who loves math - but adding, subtracting, multiplying and dividing can be pretty onerous to get through.

I would mix it up with concepts and things such as games, art, fraction, patterns, cooking etc as much as I can.

I do like the book Challenge Math - it is fun, concept heavy, and has real world (and cross curricular) applications. It is geared towards grade 5 plus, which may or may not be relevant for you.

[mom2ponygirl]

Originally Posted by VisionaryMom

Thanks! IIRC, your dd is profoundly gifted, yes? DS definitely is not at that level, but he is a math mind. I do need to look at some math-based books - mainly because he has no interest in learning to read over doing more math. I'm going to have to start using math as a reward.

My daughter is highly or profoundly gifted. But we didn't really believe that when she was 5 either.

I think using fun math books to help him develop an interest in reading is a great idea. The Number Devil, Penrose the Mathematical Cat, etc. are great. The livingmath site has a bunch more.

I think you are right that he is getting the concepts just fine. Keep feeding him with interesting ones. Let him explain them to you. Having him discuss what he is learning will pay off big later. Eventually he will start to get to problems that interest him but his slow math facts will frustrate him. When he says, I wish I could get these faster - then introduce some games to help him with automaticity. There are many fun online games to learn math facts, but I really wouldn't worry at this point.

My daughter was very slow with math facts, and it took her forever to figure out how to read time on an analog clock. In fact I think she was 10 before she could remember the 12 months of the year. LOL I remember this moment of panic before she went into her first high school classes. Oh crap, I wonder if she remembers her months yet! LOL

[VisionaryMom]

Originally Posted by kanga2roo

I never saw your other thread- but I'm wondering why this is an issue? From what you've said, your son likes math and is doing very well with what you have given him, right? So....?

I'm trying to determine where he is. I would like to know. It started as an online assessment, and he hit some things he didn't know at the 2nd grade level. So, we learned them and moved on. Our state does not have mandatory testing, but if he goes to a b&m school at some point, I want to have a reference point.

Originally Posted by kanga2roo

If he's wanting to know the facts, pick up something that will give him the facts at a glance, like this http://www.amazon.com/Math-Gear-Fast.../dp/1584763264 Then he can have fun playing around with it.

Thanks. I will look into this.

Originally Posted by kanga2roo

Why do you need to try and reach the ceiling with your son's math skills? At five years old? What about playing with math? Stories with math? Building with things like keva planks? What are you trying to accomplish?

I don't mean that I want to find the ceiling in a bad way. I want to be able to work on what he needs, and I'm finding that we're moving rapidly and not getting to a spot where he doesn't understand automatically or with a quick, 30-second explanation. I was not challenged in math until Calculus II in college. I was 17 then, and it was very difficult at that point to learn how to develop needed study habits. I had never had to work at math, and I really wasn't prepared to do it. I don't want my son in the same boat.

While "study habits" aren't so important for 5YOs, the idea of persevering when you're challenged is. So we could continue just going along at a very base level where he gets every problem right without thinking about it, but I don't think that's the best thing for him overall.

He does lots of building and playing on his own. Those are his go-to activities. I'm perfectly fine with that, but I don't consider that what we're doing for academic work. (And even if I did, my husband would consider it "playing all day.")

Originally Posted by kathymuggle

I would focus on the concepts - he loves them, and they peak his interest in math. If he remains interested in math he will probably get them as he sees them: if he works out that 8x7 is 56 enough times he might memorise it. Even if he doesn't memorise it, it will probably not hinder him. My middle child (who is 11!) does not have all her multiplication memorised, but can figure things out. She uses number sense and problem solving to get the answer she needs. Ex I just asked her what 8X7 was - and she took about 5 seconds or less to answer. She multiplied 7x4 then doubled it.

Heh! My husband does math this way! We were discussing it a few nights ago, and he was explaining how he multiplies. As I said earlier, he has a degree in math and uses high-level logic/math all the time for work, so I guess in that way it hasn't hindered him!

Originally Posted by kathymuggle

TBH, I think a lot of early math (which isn't even math but arithmatic) is boring. i say this as someone who loves math - but adding, subtracting, multiplying and dividing can be pretty onerous to get through.

I agree, and I think you've hit one of the issues I'm having. He's been adding small sums since probably age 2, so why hasn't he memorized them??? I think I keep thinking of arithmetic operations as a stumbling block to other math concepts, and that's a mistake.

Originally Posted by mom2ponygirl

I think using fun math books to help him develop an interest in reading is a great idea. The Number Devil, Penrose the Mathematical Cat, etc. are great. The livingmath site has a bunch more.

I printed one of Living Math's lists, so we'll probably head to the library to see what they have on it. We really just need to put a cot in the library.

Originally Posted by mom2ponygirl

I think you are right that he is getting the concepts just fine. Keep feeding him with interesting ones. Let him explain them to you. Having him discuss what he is learning will pay off big later. Eventually he will start to get to problems that interest him but his slow math facts will frustrate him. When he says, I wish I could get these faster - then introduce some games to help him with automaticity. There are many fun online games to learn math facts, but I really wouldn't worry at this point.

This method makes sense for him. I don't want to drill him to the point that it turns him off, but I'm also not okay with just stopping where we are and hanging out. Plus, he does love math. He asks for more math work, so it's not like I'm forcing it on him while he sobs. Maybe I will just find some online games & bookmark them for him to play at his leisure.

[fruitfulmomma]

He plays Sudoku & other "adult" math games.

Has he tried Killer Sudoku? You have to do addition patterns with that one and it has really helped me with memorizing some of those facts. I am the math geek in our family and really didn't do all that well memorizing addition or multiplication facts past the 5s.

http://www.krazydad.com/killersudoku/ is a good sight for free printables.

[moominmamma]

I honestly don't think you need to find his true level -- it's probably an asynchronous mish-mash of levels, and if he ever does enter the school system it'll be totally different by then in ways that can't be predicted from where he's at now. He's got a curious, active mind, so if you simply facilitate, feeding his curiosity, he'll find challenge. I also totally agree that emphasis on rote recall is unnecessary at this age.

When my youngest (the only one I can still remember back to age 5 with, ) was that age she had some gaps in math skills at the 2nd grade level and some fuzzy addition and subtraction recall. Rather than doing worksheets and drill we just played oral math guessing games in the car. "Guess my number" starts out with a clue like "I'm thinking of a number with two digits where the first is double the second." The guesser then asks yes/no questions to narrow down the options and hone in on the answer, like "is it bigger than fifty?" Solving such riddles is fun, but and even more telling challenge is devising them and giving them back. "Follow my number" is rapid simple mental math. "Take three, double it, subtract ten, double that, add ten, triple that, add a half and then add three. What do you get?"

For my kids these games weren't math drill. They were just like singing songs or playing "I spy" -- fun diversions that kill time and provide interest during otherwise fallow time.

I looked in detail at RightStart at one point and my impression was that it doesn't give a good fit to conceptually advanced asynchronous kids. It takes a mastery approach to each operation in turn. Multiplication is not even introduced until students have completed two years worth of the curriculum, including mastering the multi digit addition and subtraction algorithms and mastering of all the facts by rote. My kids much preferred to learn how the various operations and concepts fit together from the beginning. "Right Start" did not start where they had started.

For gap-filling when my kids were that young we used Singapore Math starting at about the 2A or 2B level. Just the workbooks, just whatever they needed and wanted to work on. Inexpensive, low repetition stuff with decent challenge and a nice fairly spare presentation. I recall using number stamps with my eldest who was very resistant to handwriting. Or else just scribing for my kids. My youngest also really liked Hands-on Equations for exploring linear algebra and negative numbers & unknowns.

Hope that helps.

Miranda

[lmonter]

I got some math Wrap-Up's for my kiddos. Not only are they hands-on, but can help them with quicker addition subtraction and turn it into a game or whatnot. In theory - I'll have actual experience with 'em by the end of the year I assume. My 6yo's still in the beginning phase of math, but still, he needs to be moving something on his body at all times. I've also heard good things about the Learning Palette, but haven't taken that particular plunge (yet).

[kgianforti]

Originally Posted by mom2ponygirl

Okay, I'm going to go against the grain and say he doesn't need to practice his math facts at this point. Let him use them doing interesting problems and he will eventually learn them. . :-)

I agree!

Though my big girl is younger, this is the approach I've decided to take since her conceptual math is much more advanced than her rote fact memorization. Plus, I figured once she "sees" the importance of them, she will take off with them. That's what happened with handwriting, she went from barely tracing to writing in about a month (no help from me) because she wanted to write her own answers in her math books.

Actually, I read this somewhere in the Creative Home Schooling book by Lisa Riveros that when it comes to rote computation, mathematically advanced children are "eh" about it.

[kgianforti]

In regards to this:

Originally Posted by VisionaryMom

I posted my math plan a while back, and a number of people thought perhaps I was doing too much too quickly. !

I can't tell you how many times that I've "heard it" from people about what we are doing with math. Sure I roll my eyes but I know they mean well despite not knowing anything about my dd. Grains of salt, that's all!

IRL, my profoundly gifted dad, who knows my dd and knows how a bright mind operates, tells me to keep going despite what grade level is on the cover of the book. That's the advice that means more to me.

I didn't see your math plan from a while back but I'm sure it's perfect for your own unique home school!

ETA: I did have a signature at one time with my dd's ages and dumped that because of all the earfuls I would get! LOL!

[VisionaryMom]

Originally Posted by kgianforti

I can't tell you how many times that I've "heard it" from people about what we are doing with math. Sure I roll my eyes but I know they mean well despite not knowing anything about my dd. Grains of salt, that's all!

I've dealt my entire life with people who are unbelieving or want to be discouraging. It's bothersome in some ways with hs because there's so much talk of the wonder of hs being the ability to cater to an asynchronous learner, but then it seems that only means if you're behind to slightly ahead. Otherwise you're seen as "pushing," and I wish it weren't that way. Much of the reason we're hs anyway is because we didn't get any really satisfactory answers from the schools we considered. We got the same "well, are you sure he understands?" without even meeting him.

Bah. It'll be fine.

I had him go back and re-do the assessment on the Singapore site. He tested into the 2A program. I went to pick up the 1A and 1B (which actually say "for use in Grade 2 classrooms?) yesterday just because it seemed there were some units we haven't covered.

We went to the playground, and he came over and begged to do math while DD played (which really worked out great!). He did one unit yesterday and another one today. I just told him that we are going to work on reading later, but he's kind of huffy about it. The store had to order the 1A, so it will be in tomorrow. The units we did were from the 1B. I'll look more closely at the 1A tomorrow and see if we have any gaps there.

So, we're figuring things out, I suppose. He wants a math keyboard, which I'll probably get for him tomorrow as well. I figure he can work on facts by playing with that whenever he feels like it.

After the next couple of weeks, I'll probably start going out and doing more hands-on math - creating our own charts and things like that.

[kgianforti]

Originally Posted by VisionaryMom

I had him go back and re-do the assessment on the Singapore site. He tested into the 2A program. I went to pick up the 1A and 1B (which actually say "for use in Grade 2 classrooms?) yesterday just because it seemed there were some units we haven't covered.

.

nevermind, sent you a PM

[VisionaryMom]

I got it, but I did want to answer the question here. I got the 1A/B because of my concerns about gaps. At this point, what we're doing feels disjointed. I doubt we'll do everything in it, but if there are concepts we've missed, then I'll have the opportunity to explain it. Plus, it's very likely he may have to go a traditional school at some point, and though I disagree with some currently trendy ideas (fact families, for example), I want to expose him to them at least.

[phathui5]

Okay, I'm going to go against the grain and say he doesn't need to practice his math facts at this point

Yeah. At five years old, even for a child who's advanced in math, it's ok to mostly keep it fun. Save the drill for later.

It's ok for there to be gaps too. Again, he's five. You have years and years for him to fill them in.

[Princess ConsuelaB]

Originally Posted by phathui5

Yeah. At five years old, even for a child who's advanced in math, it's ok to mostly keep it fun. Save the drill for later.

It's ok for there to be gaps too. Again, he's five. You have years and years for him to fill them in.

Mm-hmm, yup, really really