behavior chart

[Rose-Roget]

From a Montessori or personal perspective, what do people here think of a green, yellow, red behavior system hanging on the wall for lower elementary?

[lach]

I don't really think that it's either very Montessori, or that it's totally non-Montessori.

I'm a big fan of sticker charts for some things. Like, tasks that need to be completed. I know that I always get satisfaction from making a to-do list and then crossing things off. And I think that kids more than adults live in the moment to moment, so being able to "cross off" something (by putting a sticker next to it) can be very rewarding, and can give them a sense of accomplishment when the whole row or the whole column is full.

I can't say that I'm a huge fan of this, though. I don't think that level of behavior reward needs to be public. I have nothing wrong with publicly praising a particularly good deed, but I'm not sure that I think basic normal expected good behavior needs to be publicly praised in most students: in some students, it absolutely might make a difference. But it seems kind of like public shaming for the kids who do misbehave consistently. I would think that kids who got yellow or red stickers consistently would just give up working towards a green one, because of the very visible proof that it's impossible. And the little kid me kind of sees a bratty little girl in my class bragging about all of her green stickers.

I could see having individual files with behavior charts that the kids fill out themselves or with the help of a teacher. I actually don't think that's a bad idea. It might encourage some introspection about behavior, and give kids something to work towards. But the hanging publicly gives a bad taste in my mouth.

[MattBronsil]

Originally Posted by Rose-Roget

From a Montessori or personal perspective, what do people here think of a green, yellow, red behavior system hanging on the wall for lower elementary?

If I saw that, I guess I would have to walk up and give all the students green. :-)

[b_light]

If I saw that in a school I was checking out, I would not jump at sending my kid there. If it showed up at the school he was already attending, I'd find out as much information as possible...

Who does the moving of the colors, and what *exactly* do the represent? What words are used by the teachers? What words are used by the kids? How does my kid feel about it?

And, I'll echo what lach said, in that the publicity of it all would bother me.

[Rose-Roget]

I asked specifically about this when I toured and got, what I realize now was, a pretty vague answer. I was told that they did more positive motivators in the school (it's a public school that has traditional and Montessori classrooms). I was okay with the "catch you doing the right thing" idea to encourage the positive traits. Ds brought home a green "I had a great day" card the other day, and I was pretty disappointed to see it. I asked about it and he said they have a bulletin board with green, yellow, and red apples which a worm crawls across. Yellow is a warning, red is sitting in the hall or meeting with the teacher sorts of disciplines. It's the publicity of it that bothers me the most. He was excited to show me his green card, but then he happily told me who the boy on red that day was. I can totally see ds as one of those kids who stops being motivated to obtain green because he's always on yellow or red. And that makes me sad.

[nwatt]

I don't like these and don't think that they are effective for the kids who "need" them the most. I taught first grade for two years and was the only teacher who refused to do it. My principal actually supported me, but the other teachers thought that I was crazy. I think that the majority of well-behaved kids just ignore it, it might motivate through fear of consequences a small handful of kids to monitor their own behavior, but that the students with true behavior problems benefit from it in no way at all. I would see teacher threaten to move a students frog, worm, or whatever and it wouldn't influence the kids at all. I preferred to do a positive system. Each student had a star that moved from planet to planet through the solar system and when they read the end they got a special ticket and then started back at the sun. They moved their stars whenever I caught them doing something wonderful, following directions well, being extra helpful or kind, whatever. I found this to be much more effective. It is amazing how a disruptive student will immediately settle down when their neighbor who is working quietly gets to move their star, and then of course I would reinforce the settled behavior by having that student move his star once he had been working well for a period of time.

[sapphire_chan]

Shame <> learning.

I'd ask the school why they're using a shame based discipline technique with your child and how they intend to counteract the environment of judging and competition that will foster. Also, if he's enrolled in the Montessori program vs the regular program, there's probably literature from them that basically says they won't be doing that kind of nonsense.

[Rose-Roget]

He is enrolled int he Montessori program. I have seen no literature from them at all - it was purely what I saw when I toured and what I asked. I didn't go in there with high hopes, but I was pleasantly surprised after my tours and interview. Now that he's in, though, I'm wondering if it was all smoke and mirrors or just that we got a not-so-Montessori minded teacher.

I do want to address this, as well as the lack of Montessori teaching I've seen thus far (only a week in)...but I need to be diplomatic. That's going to be hard.

[Aliyahsmommy]

Poor you, I know you really hoped to like this new school!
I do not like this type of system as it seems fear based to me and I do not like to parent that way and therefore would not want anyone using that type of discipline. If i had a child that constantly felt bad having to show me their yellow or red card then that would bother me and would in a sense ruin the whole "fun" of school and therefore ruin the "fun" in learning. I prefer discipline to be in the moment and then over and move on, not dwelled upon for an extended period of time...which I see being done by this system.

[Rose-Roget]

Thanks, Aliyahsmommy! I really wanted to like it. I was really excited. I feel like I can never be pleased, but I think it's just that ds has a certain personality that can produce great things or be really difficult (or both). It takes a certain style, which is why I chose Montessori.

I give the cards very little interest. If there is something major happening, I'll hear about it and we can deal with it. I don't want him to be afraid to show me. Plus, the things he's getting warnings for are for things that wouldn't be happening in a true Montessori classroom...or if they were, could be extinguished fairly quickly - like talking or moving too much on line.

(FYI Aliyahsmommy - I hear that the other Millard program is much more Montessori....Just in case you're ever looking into them. Hope you year is going well. )

[elsie123]

Originally Posted by Rose-Roget

From a Montessori or personal perspective, what do people here think of a green, yellow, red behavior system hanging on the wall for lower elementary?

Not Montessori, is the first thing that pops into my mind.

When parents ask me to do behaviour charts or systems, I simply refuse, telling them it is antithetical to the Montessori philosophy.

[Aliyahsmommy]

Glad to hear you have a strategy for handling it. The less focus you give to it, hopefully the less focus Julian will give to it! Thanks also for the heads up about the other school. I actually toured Montclair and didn't get that Montessori feel so I'm not surprised at what you are finding, though I'm disappointed for you. I will keep you in my thoughts
Aliyahs starts school next Tuesday. Good news is she got into the class I requested with Miss Melissa...whom is a very kind, gentle, involved teacher. She just gives off this calm feeling that I love and she seems to handle the kids with a gentleness that I admire, at least from what I viewed. Aliyah really seemed drawn to her and that made me feel good about leaving her. I volunteered to be the head room parent for her classroom so I'm hoping to get involved. I will keep you updated. As for what happened to you at MCR, I think you just got a teacher that maybe wasn't the best fit unfortunately. Hopefully my experience will be a good one.

[Rose-Roget]

Elsie123, that's where my thinking is. When I asked about it, I was told they did not do that. That is a big reason I left his neighborhood school's parent meeting with a pit in my stomach and one reason I was so adamant for a Montessori education.

Aliyahsmommy, it's funny about Montclair because when I toured (granted it was a couple of years ago), I was pleasantly surprised by how Montessori it was for a public school. I asked questions, got good answers, saw good classrooms, etc. I dont' know if he'd be able to transfer to the other school. When I specifically asked which school might be the best fit, explaining J's needs and how Montessori minded I am, they simply answered either one. Someone very easily could have said, Norris seems to stay closer to the M. method.

I'm so glad Aliyah got a good classroom. I think you will have a wonderful experience there. Once the bumps got ironed out, it was a great place to be and I would happily return when I win the lottery! lol

[Rose-Roget]

I posted this part under the Curriculum Night thread also, but thought I'd update here too.

She has the green, yellow, red behavior chart on the wall. She says kids have a chance to "redeem" themselves and move back to green...but she still sends home the yellow or red card, which isn't redemption at all. She also stated that that way parents could give a home consequence. ?? But what if they had moved back to green - shouldn't that be encouraged? What's the motivation to move back to green?

I just listened at Curriculum Night. Didn't want to be argumentative, and I still don't so I suppose I should just bite my tongue, support ds when he proudly hands me a green card, and let the other stuff go unless there's a big issue that needs to be addressed. Funny thing was, when she was starting to talk about it to the parents, she'd fogotten to move the kids' worms back to the green apple, so the parents could see who was on yellow or red from the day. She tried to cover it as if they had just "fallen" - when clearly they had been carefully placed - and hurriedly moved them back up. I wonder if that made her think a little about the humiliation factor.

[sapphire_chan]

Originally Posted by Rose-Roget

She also stated that that way parents could give a home consequence. ??

What

the



is

this

"teacher"

thinking?????????

Or more to the point, IS she thinking?

If the behavior is enough of a problem (e.g. extreme or persistent) to need work at home, then she should TALK TO THE PARENTS ABOUT IT.

If the behavior isn't worth talking to the parents about then there's no reason for any BS like consequences at home.

Are there any other montessori classrooms at your DS's level? If so, I'd push to get him transferred.

[carmel23]

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan

Shame <> learning.

I'd ask the school why they're using a shame based discipline technique with your child and how they intend to counteract the environment of judging and competition that will foster. Also, if he's enrolled in the Montessori program vs the regular program, there's probably literature from them that basically says they won't be doing that kind of nonsense.

I totally agree with this. This tool has no real place in a Montessori classroom.

[MattBronsil]

Dear Teacher,
We are impressed with your student behavior chart. So impressed, in fact, that we would like to try something similar.

From now on, we will discuss every day with our child. We will see whether you deserve a green, yellow, or red card. Our child will then bring the card to your supervisor every day. This is so you can work on your problems at school. To help make it less private, we would like to take out a full page ad in the weekly Sunday paper that tallies your score for you so everyone may see it.

Thank you for the great idea.

Sincerely,
Parent

--------------------------

I obviously don't advocate sending that letter, but think it demonstrates how one should feel about such a system being used in the Montessori classroom.

[Rose-Roget]

Originally Posted by MattBronsil

I obviously don't advocate sending that letter, but think it demonstrates how one should feel about such a system being used in the Montessori classroom.

...Or any classroom, imo. But what can a person do about it? There are just more and more things about this class - not the least of which is this. It's a public school "Montessori" program. Can a person do anything about it? Or do I just have to accept it (and all the other issues)? I guess I need to accept that it's maybe a babystep above a traditional classroom...and about 2 steps above his neighborhood school. But it's just not what I was led to believe, which is that it was a Montessori program.

This behavior chart is one reason I left ds's traditional neighborhood school parent meeting in tears and decided NOT to send him there. I specifically asked about this and other issues at this school. I'm really don't like to be a complainer (even though it would seem otherwise).

*sigh* I wish I were one of those charming "people person" kinds who could sweet-talk anyone into anything without them becoming defensive....

[3belles]

Ick. These are the types of classroom situations that keep me up at night. How about engaging the child? Worksheets not cutting it for you? Out of busy work?

Put the teacher (and whoever came up with that) on red.

Children aren't for managing.

[sapphire_chan]

Originally Posted by Rose-Roget

...Or any classroom, imo. But what can a person do about it? There are just more and more things about this class - not the least of which is this. It's a public school "Montessori" program. Can a person do anything about it? Or do I just have to accept it (and all the other issues)? I guess I need to accept that it's maybe a babystep above a traditional classroom...and about 2 steps above his neighborhood school. But it's just not what I was led to believe, which is that it was a Montessori program.

This behavior chart is one reason I left ds's traditional neighborhood school parent meeting in tears and decided NOT to send him there. I specifically asked about this and other issues at this school. I'm really don't like to be a complainer (even though it would seem otherwise).

*sigh* I wish I were one of those charming "people person" kinds who could sweet-talk anyone into anything without them becoming defensive....

Eh : let her get defensive, then you could suggest that if the two of you don't get along it'd be better for your ds to transfer to another class.

I'd start things off like this "Can you tell me how the behavior chart fits in with your Montessori training and experience?" and "Do you have references for its use in a Montessori classroom? I'd like to learn more."

Because every.single.other.thing in a Montessori classroom has a reason for being there. Even if a teacher is using something that isn't 100% Montessori, e.g. Matt's puppets , they should be able to explain why it's in the classroom, how they're making it work with the Montessori philosophy, what benefit the children get--in the context of the Montessori philosophy, and in general show that it improves rather than detracts from the method.