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stbx's offer/requests, how to respond

post #1 of 30
Thread Starter 
after being in utter denial about the state of our marriage for the past six weeks (while we've been separated and i've been telling him i want a divorce), stbx has come to terms with it and says he wants to reach a mutual agreement and just file, to avoid a court battle.

a little background, skip the gray text if you don't need it. we have two young children. he was the sahp. ds1 has been attending preschool since fall, two days a week and then went to three days in feb. that is all day (so like 30 hours a week). ds2 started attending in june. as of this week, they are there full time. stbx started woh late june. so far, i pay all bills. he has never contributed to child care expenses, groceries, utilities.

the boys and i are currently staying elsewhere because i needed to get away from him, and he wasn't going to leave our home. we have no equity in our home. i plan to keep it. he is fine with that. he doesn't want the responsibility.

i have part ownership in a family business. it's a start-up and i owe my father my buy-in for my shares, so essentially this is a liability, not an asset, although i will talk with our controller about how the value of the business is determined and will talk with the attorney who drew up all the papers when we incorporated. i do know that there is no way he can get my shares. that was part of the way the business was structured - he would be entitled to half their value but could never take ownership of them. he signed off on that.


so this is what he wants:

eow but he doesn't actually intend to use that in the near future. he says he would probably just take them for the day on his saturday, and that's it. i suggested one evening each week for 2-3 hours, so they would see him more frequently, but said it has to be consistent. he said that sounds good but he wasn't sure if he would be available because doesn't know what his work schedule will be.

wants some money to start over. i explained that we don't really have any equity or anything else - we have debt. he said, "yeah but we have a lot of stuff and i'm not taking it" because he's going to be in a roommate situation for a little while, doesn't need much and doesn't have room for it. he is taking his massive record collection and all his music equipment, which is pretty much the only thing of value (in that you can sell it for a decent amount of cash - he has a LOT of instruments and recording gear, much of which i purchased). our household possessions are second-hand or ikea, nothing valuable. he thinks he should get this chunk of cash. i'm like, from where? we have bills. we don't have savings. and what does he need money for? nothing, just because he feels entitled to it.

doesn't want to pay any child support or anything toward child care or medical expenses. i don't think a judge will approve that.

wants to be able to continue therapy which of course i think is good, in the best interest of our kids, but not sure it's in any way my obligation to pay for that (his copays). currently he is on my insurance. i don't know how long he would be allowed to remain on my insurance or whether he would qualify for state insurance once our divorce is final.

so - i know i just posted i wouldn't give up child support (something my kids are entitled to) but after reading the thread more, sole legal custody sounds pretty awesome. i have no "chunk of money" for him, so there's no way i can give him that. i don't know if he can stay on my insurance. i agree with the visitation schedule. this whole child support thing is the only place where i can offer a compromise in exchange for sole legal. for the next 12 months, i would need my parents' help to make ends meet, until ds1 starts kindergarten. they are willing to help me (and it would be less $$$ than a court battle, which they would also be helping me with because seriously as a single mama i don't have the money). if i ended up in a bad financial position down the road, and he was doing well for himself, i suppose i could ask for that to be changed. oh yeah, of course i also want to claim them on my taxes. i don't give a crap about holidays, but i suppose my kids will. anything else i should ask for? what are your thoughts about giving up child support / daycare / medical . . . i ran the calculator and he would be ordered to pay about $700-$800 per month under the current circumstances if this went to court (which would be lowered as child care costs go down).
post #2 of 30
I would never give up CS... but I also really can't afford to.

I don't see you getting a whole lot out of this? He sees the kids a couple hours a week and doesn't help with anything else?

And knowing his history... even if you have sole legal custody, that likely won't stop him from harrassing you.
post #3 of 30
What is he like?

The request for money i would make too, in his place, because i have not contributed FINANCIALLY to my home either (although i do have substantial equity in our home, i don't pay the mortgage at all) and i am here looking after the kids and home which prevents me from contributing financially by mutual design. I'd be pretty mad if we split and he said "oh, not made anything in the last x years? Don't get anything then." - don't be mistaken i TOTALLY get that you don't have cash and can't give him cash, i just think feeling entitled to it isn't entirely unreasonable/bonkers from my POV. In his actual situation he should really be grateful for not having the debts, but i guess if he wasn't paying them he never took ownership in his head anyway...?

If he's abusive or harassing i would take sole legal custody and trade it for whatever he wants pretty much, reason being kids can and do end up being given to the abusive parent if it comes to a battle in court.

I wouldn't, however, give up CS unless he was dangerous. CS is not for you, it's for your children, they are a financial burden he CANNOT stick entirely on you, they're his kids too.

Find out about the insurance thing, get legal advice before you do anything, why not work out what YOU want (as opposed to letting him tell you what HE wants) and set it out for him. A mutual agreement is not him setting it out and you having to agree, there should be a bartering process.
post #4 of 30
So just to clarify: He wants to pay nothing, he wants you to give him a chunk of money, he wants you to pay for his counseling/insurance, and he wants to see the kids maybe twice a month, as it's convenient for him, subject to change at the last minute, and by the way, can you drive them over and pick up some toilet paper and cigarettes and soda on the way?
You want to know what I honestly think? I think it's time that someone, anyone, somewhere on this planet, makes him start accepting just a tiny little smidgen of responsibility. Talk to your lawyer about it, but really, the only possible way he can get out of paying child support is if he manipulates you into thinking that it's the right thing to do. If he manages to make you feel guilty and uncomfortable for "making" him contribute financially to his sons' well-being.
If you do file for child support, he's going to be all like, "you're a big meanie and it's totally unfair and how could you do this to me." But it's not unfair. It's what your kids deserve.
ETA: Also, he hasn't been a SAHP in the sense of pulling his weight around the house and with the kids. He's been a SAHP because he doesn't like to work, and you've still been taking care of the majority of the housework, doctor's appointments, etc, right? You've basically been working double shift and he's been benefiting from that.
Oh, I forgot to introduce myself. Hi Kettle, I'm Pot. Cyrus's dad has never paid a dime of child support ever (but hey, at least I'm no longer paying his cell phone bill, wanna know how long I carried that?) but once this legal stuff comes to a head, I'm going to file for child support. Because that's his responsibility, even if he's tried as hard as he possibly can to convince me that he is an able-bodied grown man who is not capable of lifting a finger to support his son.
It's not normal, the way I feel so freaking guilty for expecting my son's father to contribute to his basic expenses. It's very much not Betty. I have access to the student counseling starting next week, and I'm going to try to figure it out there.
post #5 of 30
Thread Starter 
i guess i can point out to him that him not having to pay support is essentially him getting, like, $40,000. and he can eff off with the rest of his requests. maybe in exchange for that, he would not only give me sole legal, but terminate parental rights completely, idk. do i want that? it might make my life simpler in the future. like if i end up with an actual partner who wants to be an actual parent to my kids.

can i afford to give up child support? i could. even without help from my parents, i would have the option of switching to home daycare, renting an extremely sh!tty apartment, working from home nights/weekends while my kids are sleeping/playing . . . if something happened and my parents couldn't help me out, i wouldn't be completely destitute. however, that money isn't for me. it is for my kids, and me having access to that money to cover some of their basic expenses means that i can give them greater security on my remaining income (like, by having savings, maybe? a more reliable car?). it does potentially affect their quality of life, which is why i hesitate to give it up. otoh, more time with me, less time with him, also improves their quality of life, imnsho. i might try to get his weekends to be just one overnight (like sat am to sun pm), for whenever he starts actually using it. plus even if he is ordered to pay child support, i can't count on him actually doing so, and then i have to get his help when i need a passport or may be quibbling over where the boys go to school or whatever.

he will lose interest in me when he finds a new mommy. he's obsessive, so a new relationship would practically mean i no longer exist.
post #6 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoBecGo View Post
why not work out what YOU want (as opposed to letting him tell you what HE wants) and set it out for him.
That's good advice.
post #7 of 30
He has been working for a while and *choosing* to not get paid because he wants a car instead (that he can't drive or insure) so I wouldn't feel real sympathetic about him not having money, but I'm not sure how enforceable that is in court. You have been giving him months of free housing (because it's not like you are going to evict him with no notice) while he has free time to work and save up money and he is choosing not to do so. I can't see how you are harming him.

I don't think you should give up child support. That's a somewhat dubious road to go down for your kids. Although maybe for sole legal.

I know he has been the SAHP for a long time, but you *are* giving him time to transition back into working while still supporting him. *That* is the 'help' he is asking for. In my opinion it is pretty unreasonable for you to come up with a hunk of cash. You can't get blood from a stone. I think I would just repeat that point a few more times without anything else useful to say so uhm I'll go back to just being quiet in this forum.
post #8 of 30
Thread Starter 
bec, i agree - if we had any assets, he would be entitled to half. it doesn't matter than he wasn't working, because being a sahp is a financial contribution, considering the cost of paying for childcare for two littles. of course, he never did anything else to pitch in, was not the one taking them to appointments or activities or making them dinner or putting them to bed, nah . . . i mean, i solo-parented as many hours per week as he did. literally. not counting overnights, which i was also solely responsible for. he basically was "off the clock" the moment i came home, and while he was "on the clock" well . . . the crap he did, and the quality of care he provided (which was more like vague supervision than actual care), would never, ever fly if i were paying someone to care for my kids. i know that's harsh, but it's true. i left him primarily for my children's well-being. and while the arrangement was mutually agreed upon for the first few years, once ds2 was no longer an infant, it wasn't mutually agreeable. i didn't want him being the sahp anymore but couldn't do anything about it.

jen! i can't wait for your current mess to be over so you can start holding him accountable. i agree that stbx is obligated to support his children, and they are entitled to his financial support. i'm just trying to weigh whether it would be equally beneficial to them to have no financial support from him, in exchange for their functional parent having sole legal. idk.
post #9 of 30
In that case i would think about whether termination of parental rights would be worth trading cs for (i tend to think that kids need both parents unless there is pretty serious neglect/abuse, but equally i am constantly trying to parent out all the "funny" things XP thinks are ok, like climbing into our neighbours yards without asking...grr!). Bear in mind that your kids might grow up resenting his absence, might find him as adults and might be told all kinds of rubbish about how you made him do it, but on the whole it might be better to risk that than KNOW he is going to be telling them all kinds of rubbish eow.

From this thread alone (i am nak a very grumpy baby who can't sleep except in-arms today!) i am wondering if he's a narcissist. That's a pretty strong reason to minimise contact IMO.

What do YOU want Mama? Think about it. Be strong, you're already being amazingly strong. It'd be great if everyone who needed it got therapy, but i am not paying for it and nor should you! It's his issue, not yours, you don't divorce people to go on looking after them.
post #10 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by doubledutch View Post
jen! i can't wait for your current mess to be over so you can start holding him accountable.
You and me both, sister.
post #11 of 30
Thread Starter 
rkom, so right. i literally don't have anything to give him except freedom from debt.

hmm, thinking about what i would want, if he hadn't already made his proposal.

sole legal.
sole physical.
a modest amount of support - i would be happy with like $200 / month, total, for now, to be revisited once he has had a year or so to get on his feet.
eow visitation (like 36-40 hours, not 48) plus one evening per week - i do think shorter, more frequent visits are best for such young kids.
i want thanksgiving (wed-fri), memorial day (fri-mon) and labor day (fri-mon). don't care about religious holidays, mother's day, or my birthday. if my holiday took his weekend, he could have the following weekend, and then it would revert to the normal schedule.
each parent picks up kids at the beginning of his/her time. ncp is responsible for all of kids' needs during his parenting time.
daily phone calls. my boys like saying goodnight to their dad, and i like checking in once when they are with him. bedtime has worked well for this so far.

i read that "what i wished i asked for" thread a few months ago but i need to go refresh my memory.

bec, imo he has bpd but he has every indication for npd as well.
post #12 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by doubledutch View Post
bec, imo he has bpd but he has every indication for npd as well.
I'm still trying to figure out that overlap, but I think this is interesting:
http://www.anythingtostopthepain.com...-co-morbidity/
post #13 of 30
Thread Starter 
that's fascinating. reading the descriptions there makes me lean toward npd, but his feigned helplessness/victimhood are what throw me off.
post #14 of 30
Yeah, I remember from your very first posts, the Passive Aggressive/learned helplessness thing was what stood out to me. He reminds me a lot more of my passive aggressive ex than my NPD ex or my BPD ex... Jesus. I swear, I need to join the convent.
post #15 of 30
Thread Starter 
i have another question regarding visitation. since he plans to just have them every-other saturday and NOT have them overnights, is that the way we should put it in our agreement? or should it state every other weekend even though he has no intention of doing that for now, but because he wants to have that in our agreement for future use?


editing because i spent some time with the cs calculator and figured out that it's more like $100,000 over the next 15 years, and that's assuming he never earns more than like $25k per year. i had rounded way down for next year (when ds1 starts school) and all following years when they're both in school, thinking that if child care wasn't a factor his obligation would be a lot lower. when i ran the actual calculations, that wasn't the case. that's a lot of shoes, cereal, urgent care visits and tennis lessons. hmm.
post #16 of 30
Is he likely to want more time with them if he has to pay cs? His visitation request, to me, seemed more like "when it's convenient to me" rather than being about them. My DD1's daddy would pay anything he could even if he wasn't seeing her, but then i would have them see one another even if he couldn't pay anything. Are the cs and access ACTUALLY linked as far as he is concerned?

And no, if he doesn't want overnights i would have that put in now. Tell him it can always be changed when he's ready to have them overnight and then YOU get to revisit it if/when that happens. TBH i wouldn't mention it, i'd just have it put in and see if he notices, and if he does say "oh, sorry, that's what you said you wanted, we can always change it when overnights are going to begin...". As much as i hate to think of it in these terms (and i was lucky enough not to have to with my own ex) you should try to set the precedents YOU want as early as possible.
post #17 of 30
In my most gentle way Mama, you are not going to find a judge that will decree terminating parental rights in exchange for no child support in your situation. Even if that's what you BOTH want. Barring extreme child abuse or a step-parent ready to sign up for responsibility, it's not going to happen.

And to be perfectly honest, from what you have posted on this thread, he has been the SAHP for most of the kids childhood and currently retains the home. Again, and not casting stones here, just going off what you posted in this thread; you took the children out of the home and now you want sole custody and child support. He would have a darn good chance of making you bring the kids back to the home and you becoming the NCP if he cared to.

TBH, "i don't give a crap about holidays, but i suppose my kids will. anything else i should ask for" bothers me. A lot. I'll be brutally honest, it makes me literally cringe.

I may be missing a huge backstory, and by all means someone direct me to it if I have, but going off this thread alone? It leaves a bad taste.

Whatever you and your childrens Father works out, I wish nothing but the best for your kids.
post #18 of 30
Thread Starter 
i'm sorry if it came across that i would be asking for a judge to order that he terminate his parental rights. i do know a couple in my state who did exactly that, by mutual agreement, not by a judge's orders. he didn't want to pay anything, so he terminated parental rights (not just giving her sole legal and physical, but truly he is not his daughter's legal parent any more, although he still sees her regularly). i don't necessarily want that, but in reality, a judge will not allow him to just not pay child support, just because he doesn't want to. he would have to terminate rights in order to get out of child support. (i think that is more difficult in some places than others, so what you said is probably true there but not here.) i did word it in a way that sounds like i would be seeking that, but i'm not really - just trying to think out whether he would be willing to do that, to get out of paying cs, and whether there is any reason i would want that to happen, like the potential for someone else to step in and be a real parent to them. ideally, stbx would continue to be their dad, but it remains to e seen whether he's going to actually do that.

yes, he has been the sahp, but i don't need to explain again how i have cared for them more than he has, because it's already in this thread. he "retains" the home because he wouldn't voluntarily leave and i it was necessary for us to separate. yeah, i removed our kids from their home, but they don't even want to go back. it was not a good place. they want to stay where we are because it "feels snuggly" which i take to mean that they feel safe and loved.

why does it bother you that i would consider the fact that my children might care about christmas and easter, even though i personally do not?

yeah, you are missing a huge backstory. some of it was on parents as partners, but more is on the surviving abuse forum which is private. it's okay. it's good to have different perspectives here without the bias of having read my whole story. i let the fear of "he could get the kids" keep me from leaving a bad situation for a long time (because that would be bad for them), but as my kids got older, me staying was also becoming harmful to them, and i found out that he probably would not get custody - and wouldn't want it anyway because it's too much work.

bec, the only way for stbx's child support to be lower would be 50-50 custody or sole custody. he doesn't want the responsibility.
post #19 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by doubledutch View Post
bec, the only way for stbx's child support to be lower would be 50-50 custody or sole custody. he doesn't want the responsibility.
Which is good, right?

So, what do you want? You cannot change people but time sometimes does. My XP was VERY irresponsible when i left him but he has made a big effort for DD since he lost her physical presence, so he's now a good loving father (he parents WAY differently to me, but still in a loving way, just not how i do!). Do you see that as a possibility in the future? How much would you, ideally, like him to have them? If he is toxic, then minimal contact, right? If he is useless then maybe shortish, but frequent visits...? I don't know, you know him and the kids best.
post #20 of 30
I just wanted to mention that even if you agree to lower cs for some reason, thats not necessarily enforceable in court forever. If you get in a position that you need more cs you CAN take him back to court for it. It's terrible, but a court is mostly concerned with the children being financially supported (According to my uncle who is a family law atty).

You would be unable to collect back support based on the new amount, but you can go back to court for things like cs if your circumstances change.
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