Writing it down gets in her way

[confustication]

I just started some 'review' stuff with my 8yo as we get ready to start working more intensely this fall and I hit a HUGE problem. I saw the start of the problem last year, and maybe I should have done more then instead of assuming that maturity and practice would help.

I gave her a sheet of math problems she has complete mastery over, and she spent about 45 minutes trying to make it through the first 4 questions. When I sat down with her, and held the pencil myself, she could do the problem in seconds. She completely grasps the concepts, but can not pull together writing the answers, or even just reading the problem- simple math such as 5+2 had to be spoken aloud as five plus two before she would do it, but when she did- she did it flawlessly. Eventually- with my verbally translating the questions she did fine and worked through some higher level math (grade 6/7 ish).

She does well with a computer-based model such as time4learning, but I feel she needs 'more' than that. Additionally, she needs to write. She loves reading and language and is very advanced, but getting her to write is like pulling teeth. If she dictates a story and I write or type it, it's fabulous. If I actually have her write the story, it is disjointed, and far below her grade level, let alone reading level.

I haven't a clue where to post this really- this is a child with Aspergers combined with a tested IQ in excess of 180. So, special needs, gifted, etc are options, but really this is about how I can create the environment she needs to learn well at home. I am happy working with her, but at almost nine, she needs to be able to do some stuff independently without visual cue from the computer, or verbal translation from Mom.

She can answer multiple choice tests/quizzes/assessments far ahead of grade level, but the moment she has to write it all falls apart.

[moominmamma]

Her IQ makes her rarer than one in a million -- and that's without considering the additional challenge of her Asperger's. I honestly don't think you're likely to encounter anyone with similar experience. I have some highly-to-exceptionally gifted kids, one of whom is very dysgraphic, but an IQ above 180 puts her in a totally different realm from mine.

I am however a little confused by what you are describing. Is it just that she can't write the answers because the motor programming and execution involved in writing derails her thought process? Because this:

simple math such as 5+2 had to be spoken aloud as five plus two before she would do it

makes it sound like something else is going on. Is it that she can't make sense of the visual symbols? Or is this resistance to doing written work that is being expressed as refusal to read? The help she gets when you scribe for her: is that just with the writing part, or do you read the problem aloud and prompt her for the steps? What happens when she types on the computer? Is her story-telling just as disjointed? Is she able to answer written math problems using the keyboard instead of a pencil? How about large-scale writing, like on a chalkboard or whiteboard? How does math work there?

Miranda

[confustication]

Her IQ makes her rarer than one in a million -- and that's without considering the additional challenge of her Asperger's. I honestly don't think you're likely to encounter anyone with similar experience. I have some highly-to-exceptionally gifted kids, one of whom is very dysgraphic, but an IQ above 180 puts her in a totally different realm from mine.

She is so incredibly 'out of the norm' to parent that I have learned to take ideas from any source I can. Sometimes she's 40 in an 8 year old body, and sometimes she's 4.

I am however a little confused by what you are describing. Is it just that she can't write the answers because the motor programming and execution involved in writing derails her thought process?

This is where I am stuck- I think it's the execution of it. It's better when she types, but not great. It's almost as though the process of moving thoughts from inside her head to outside it, in any manner at all is overwhelming and she focuses on that instead of on the ideas and concepts themselves. I'll bring it up with her neuropsych when we see him again for ideas.


If I ask her to do the work on paper, she will get 'stuck' and suddenly forget what she is doing. If we apply it in the real world she will come up with an answer almost instantly. She understands the visual symbols, and when I remove the whole task of translating it to any form of writing or typing she actually gets well ahead of where we are- for example- asking her to add a 3 column number- were I to ask it aloud, or were she to simply see it on, say, a roadsign with no expectation of having to respond in writing, she would answer it instantly. When it is on paper in front of her she shut down, and reverts (reverts is probably a bad word here as I know it's normal to add by column, but it isn't normal for her) to add the ones column, then the tens, then the hundred, and is often so frustrated by the process that she drops huge concepts -like the idea that 31 comes after 30 as opposed to 40 following 30. She resorted to counting on her fingers today for the first time in years and counted out 28, 29, 30, 40, 50...

As soon as I took the pencil from her, giving her about 10 minutes to regroup, I simply asked the questions and she answered verbally. I wrote them on a board and she answered verbally as well. When I reverted to a small paper and a pencil- on the desk in front of her she shut down again.

[khenn]

I can relate! Last year when we started school, I was so depressed. The first day in and it was horrible. My kids couldn't do math to save their souls. I was working with my 10 and 7 year old at the time. They could do math drills online with me typing the answers but they couldn't do them on paper. My 10 year old couldn't get 2 + 2...seriously! I was a total failure as far as I saw it.

So...I started making him do timed math drills on paper every day. The goal was to do 100 problems in 5 minutes. The first time he did the multiplication sheet, it took over 17 minutes. I was drained just thinking about it all. So, I cut the sheet in half and we focused on 50 problems in 2.5 minutes.

It took us a good chunk of the year to start making progress. The problem wasn't the math -- it was the focus. Once I explained to him that we were doing this not to drill him in math but to teach him to focus, it helped some.

By the end of the year, he could do 100 problems in under 4 minutes! Happy dance!!! My 7 year old is advanced in math but still could not do the written work. She has made big gains this past year as well. I don't make her do 100 problems but she will do 3 minute drills and do quite well. I'm actually finding that she can do the writing part easier than the online drills so it was really my oldest I was struggling the most with.

For writing -- I teach writing to my son but in a co op class setting. I advice parents to let their kids dictate all their work to them until they are ready to take ownership of it bit by bit. I didn't follow my own advice so for 4th grade, he struggled with writing. In 5th grade, I took my advice and I typed everything for him while he dictated. Slowly....he started taking it over himself. By the end of 5th grade, he was typing all his own work, revising it some on his own, and doing a bit of editing as well -- without prompting. It literally brought tears to my eyes!

So hang in there...some years are leap years I think in how much our kids improve. For me, it was 5th grade for my son! Huge, huge year for us!

Kellie

Just read other posts and I'm adding on a couple of thoughts. My son is super smart as well. Never had him tested so while I'm sure he isn't near your child's IQ, he is well ahead of his peers which is obvious to everyone. He reads insanely and has since he was 3. Math came easier to him when he read the problems out loud as well. He is more of an auditory learner it seemed.

For the writing -- I have a kid in one of my classes who has so many ideas going in his head, he can't get them all down on paper. I could give him an oral prompt and without any time to prep, he can orally write on that prompt for minutes upon minutes. I have to cut him off usually as there is no end to his ideas. He talks so fast it's hard to keep up and I don't know when he actually breathes as it just keeps coming. Writing for him was very hard but in my class, it's getting easier. I wouldn't worry about formats, mechanics, spelling, or anything like that in the first draft. Tell her not to worry but just to throw up her ideas on paper. It will be very jumbled and messy but that's good -- you have to have something to start with. From there, it's time to revise. This stage is all about more -- ask questions to get her to add more to what she has on the paper. Still don't worry about how it looks. Then it's time to edit...now you take all of the words that are already there and organize them into paragraphs, add an opening hook, a wrap up sentence or paragraph and you are set. It's not that hard. The hardest part is to get past the fear of writing wrong. You really can't write wrong. If it helps, crumple up a peice of paper and then unfold it and give it to her to write on. This helps cement the idea that it's not a final draft. It doesn't have to be perfect ... it just has to come out of her brain and get on paper in whatever form that takes.

[tankgirl73]

My son is Asperger's and high IQ -- not THAT high lol but pretty good. He's also a VERY reluctant writer.

My suggestion is to work with her strengths. Yes, work on writing, but make that a separate 'subject' rather than insisting that she write her work in all other areas. If she is able to understand and do the math, what does it matter -- at age *8* -- if she reads it off a page or hears it? The MORE important thing is that she understands the concepts.

The biggest revolution in our schooling was when I realized that it was OKAY for him to not write his responses. When we started using NOEO Science, which gives the option of writing a summary, or drawing it, or both. Once he started drawing his responses, it all made sense. He was putting in details that he would not have written. Again, the point is to show that he understands and learned something, and that's separate from writing ability.

Other kids would do better with orally narrating, or building with legos or playdoh, or acting it out... lots of options that don't require writing.

In the meantime, we've been working on his writing. I looked into dysgraphia and muscle weakness in the hand and incorporated some ideas from that. We switched to Penny Gardner's Italics program, which he actually really enjoyed. And I *stopped* asking him to write any more than what he volunteered -- which was usually just a sentence or two.

Now he's 12 and the writing has improved a lot. He still doesn't write big essays or anything, but he doesn't complain about it anymore. I think this year, we're going to work on getting a whole paragraph written, then move to essays after that. I'm fully confident that by the time he's an adult he'll be able to write an essay! And in the meantime, it really doesn't matter for his science or his history, what matters is that he understands within his own mind.

I really think that 8 is still really, really young to expect a lot of writing. Some kids can do it, but most really can't. Even if they're profoundly gifted, they can still be 'normal' or even 'below normal' in other areas -- as I'm sure you know. That doesn't mean we have to bend over backwards to make them catch up. In most cases, I have come to believe (after making many mistakes in our own journey) that respecting their natural development is WAY more efficient, less stressful, and comes out just as good if not better in the end!

[dairy2dogs]

My son also has aspergers & dysgraphia and has the same difficulty your daughter has. Occupational therapy and vision therapy may help. They really helped my sons visual processing. His reading went from below grade level to well above. I reccomend seeing a developemental eye doctor. Writing is still hugely difficult though. We encourage our son to still write a little but for the most part he either dictates or uses voice recognition software. Even typing is difficult and slow.

[confustication]

OMG- voice recognition software! Why did I not think of that- it would be HUGE for her HUGE!


I've gotten so much amazing feedback here- and what I am really taking from this is that she *is* learning and processing all of this stuff, and if writing gets in the way of that- maybe writing shouldn't have to be a constant part of it.

She learns better when she doesn't HAVE to write, and I'm getting in the way of that by trying to force the issue.

Off to shop for voice recognition software for her now... Wheeeeee!!!

[lorrielink]

Originally Posted by confustication

She learns better when she doesn't HAVE to write, and I'm getting in the way of that by trying to force the issue.

I had to come to the same conclusions about my son around 8 years old. He is 11 and a half now and still progressing slowly but steadily. However, as annoying as it can be to find a curriculum or program that isn't writing centered it has forced us to be more creative to give him outlets and focuses for the things he has learned about and wanted to do more than just read about.
We have done countless craft projects such as character studies by picking a favorite character from a story and drawing a picture of them or a scene or making lego character scenes as well as music and songs for anything from math facts to grammar.

[khenn]

My husband writes for an online computer tech site but he recently hurt his back quite severly. His editor suggested a voice recognition software. He can wear a headset, lay flat on his back on the floor, and still write his article. So...if the pros can do it and even suggest it to their writers -- it's certainly something to look into.

My husband read reviews and watched demos before ordering the Dragon software off Amazon. I think he ordered version 10 for around $33. There is a newer version that just came out but it's about $100 so we thought we would try the cheaper version as there didn't seem to be much different between them.

Haven't received it yet but thought I'd throw this info out there.

[confustication]

My mother used Dragon to dictate her notes- she's a therapist, and it saved her a lot of time. I know it can be finicky to teach (apparently the newest version is better, but with the difference in cost, we'll probably just take a little extra time working with it) but I really think it could help her.

[dairy2dogs]

My son got frustrated with Dragon. We found the one build into windows and using the microphone from Rockband (the xbox game) worked a lot better.

[Jennifer Z]

I have a son with Autism, with similar issues. We started scribing for him on almost everything where content was the focus and have writing as a separate subject. It is like he can't think about both writing and content at the same time without a major blow to both writing and content.

As I said, we have writing as a separate subject. My goal is functional writing skills: to be able to write lists or notes or other short things. We are working on typing also, which is much easier for him because the motor skills aren't as variable (within reason, a keyboard is a keyboard is a keyboard...once he has the skills on a keyboard, you tend to use the same one for the majority of your writing, where manual writing has infinite variables between the writing instruments and the surfaces that take more effort and motor navigation).

His writing lessons are two part...first, the standard HWOT work on letter formation, second, we are taking a subject he likes (science) and making a science vocabulary dictionary (with related experiments to demonstrate concepts...he struggles with vocabulary and word retrieval, so this hits two points for him) where he writes out the word, definitions, and then a worksheet we made out for each experiment based on the scientific method. He has to write the question, hypothesis, ect. out. That takes a lot more time and is tiring for him, so if you pick something where you are going to require writing, make sure it is something motivating for him.