Help, please (yet another 3.5 y.o.)

[mama2004]

I'll try not to ramble too much. My ds has been delightful from the start, he is generally really easygoing and helpful and even tempered; no meltdowns at the grocery store, no steel cage texas death match fits over which cup or plate or any of that.

However, over the last couple of weeks, we have been having monumental struggles and I don't know how to work us through them. It comes on fairly randomly, like this evening; we were getting ready for bed, and he'd been running around and playing (but had already brushed his teeth and knew it was bedtime, which isn't a struggle around here), and I asked him to come over the the couch so that I could help him with his "night time unders" (still not 100% dry on the overnights). He was busy spinning in circles and being silly, so I asked him a couple of times and was waiting for him on the couch when he suddenly switched gears into "No mama, I'm too tiiiiired. I want you to pick me up. I can't walk that far..." That far was all of ten feet. I explained that I was waiting for him on the couch (I was already mildly annoyed by the stalling), and gently and politely asked him to come over so I could help him. Then the screaming started. "NOOOOO! I'm TOOOOO TIIIIRED to walk that far, so can you carry me?!!" So I continued to calmly let him know that I was waiting for him, but he continued to escalate, and after about five minutes, I just said that I wasn't going to wait any longer and he could let me know when he was ready for help. He remained in roughly the same spot screaming for about 30 minutes. Dh finally talked him down/distracted him.

This sort of thing has happened a few times in the past several days, and I'm at a point where I just don't want to engage anymore. I've tried to be calm and gentle, and to explain that I cannot tolerate being yelled at. He won't willingly do anything to calm himself (like allow for a distraction or some quiet time in his room), the only way I could get him to stay in a separate place from me would be to lock him in his room, and he would freak out if I did that, it would be a force situation and I don't see how that would help anything, not to mention it isn't something that I want to do. Well, I kind of do, after about 10 minutes of screaming, but...

I know that I have a stubborn streak, but I really can't tolerate the yelling and I know he's not enjoying it either. I'm at a loss as far as what to do. I've had a secret fear that because he's been so generally easy, he'll be some kind of hellion teenager, or something, but maybe we're due to get to some hard stuff sooner than I thought. I don't feel that I've been taking an unreasonable position in our conflicts, and have tried to remain very calm, gentle in my movements and quiet with my voice, but his little body just becomes so filled with frustration and anger and screaming that I don't know what to do.

Can someone share some perspective? Please?

[spmamma]

I had almost the exact same thing happen with my 3 YO DD today. I took her to the potty while I had DS on my back. When she was finished and wiped, I asked her to please pull up her panties, thinking that I didn't want to bend over again and again with the baby on my back...

"No, mama! I want you to do it!"

I asked several more times... eventually it devolved into her throwing her underwear at me while screaming at the top of her lungs. I put her in her room to cool off (yeah, right!) and she proceeded to scream at me for at least 20 minutes...

I spent that time calming myself down, since I was annoyed and frustrated and had raised my voice. Finally, I went in to her room and put her panties on her while she screamed that she wanted to do it (but was still refusing to do it for some reason).

After that, she cooled down pretty quickly and I apologized. Deep down, while this whole thing was going on I knew I was digging in my heels (who is the toddler here, me or her? ) for no good reason. It would have been easy for me to simply pull up her panties the first time... but instead I was trying for some strange reason to make her exert some independence at a moment when she just wanted mama to do it for her.

I guess my point is that while nine times out of 10 our 3 YO kids want to do it themselves, and will slap your hand away or scream at you if you try to do it for them... but that one time they want you to do it just so happens to be the time when you want them to do it. And of course, you lose if you fight it.

These days I try to take the path of least resistance with my very spirited little girl. If it's important to her that I pull up her panties and it's not impossible for me to do so (i.e. I'm nursing the baby) then why not?

Your situation really resonated with me because I could see myself in it. Perhaps if you had simply said, "Okay honey, I'll come to you and we can put them on together," you would have avoided the tantrum. It's easy enough for you to do, and at the end of the day the battle to have him listen and do as you ask is probably just not worth it.

Sorry for the long-winded response... but I wanted to let you know you are not alone!

[Casha'sMommy]

I don't post here often but thought I'd chime in on this one.

We have had and sometimes still have these struggles with our dd(4yo). The "problem" seems to be similar to the undies issue. I like to take those opportunities to teach dd about compromise. I'll tell her that I can help her with her undies and then, if it's bedtime for example, it's straight to the bathroom to brush teeth and no more fussing. I find a lot of the problems like the one you had the other day happen at a time when dc are already tired or over extended in some way. At least that's how it is at my house.
I also find a good mama hug helps in these types of situations because I've seen that most of these issues arise out of frustration from someone.

[enigo]

I must be getting numb because I am so used to this at this point (DS just turned 4) that I wasn't sure what the problem was

He's just tired. They go nuts when they are tired. When I am trying to get DS to bed, I feel like he's an obnoxious drunk, he's really not completely accountable for his crazy actions when he's so tired.

[mama2004]

Originally Posted by spmamma

Your situation really resonated with me because I could see myself in it. Perhaps if you had simply said, "Okay honey, I'll come to you and we can put them on together," you would have avoided the tantrum. It's easy enough for you to do, and at the end of the day the battle to have him listen and do as you ask is probably just not worth it.

Sorry for the long-winded response... but I wanted to let you know you are not alone!

Thanks for the reply, I think you're right about the sort of power struggle, or at least a whiff of one. I've been thinking about it in a sort of "but don't I GET to run this scenario?" It's been so easy, and he's usually so willing. When something like this happens, I'm just kind of dumbstruck, and maybe I need to focus on deescalating than enforcing my sense of limits.

Originally Posted by Casha'sMommy

I don't post here often but thought I'd chime in on this one.

We have had and sometimes still have these struggles with our dd(4yo). The "problem" seems to be similar to the undies issue. I like to take those opportunities to teach dd about compromise. I'll tell her that I can help her with her undies and then, if it's bedtime for example, it's straight to the bathroom to brush teeth and no more fussing. I find a lot of the problems like the one you had the other day happen at a time when dc are already tired or over extended in some way. At least that's how it is at my house.
I also find a good mama hug helps in these types of situations because I've seen that most of these issues arise out of frustration from someone.

When this has been happening lately (not all episodes have been at or near bedtime or at night, or when it would be usual for ds to be tired and/or hungry or otherwise not quite in balance), compromise doesn't seem to be possible. A few days ago, I spent thirty or more minutes telling him that we could get on with whatever it was (don't even know, and didn't really know how the blow up even happened or what it was over) as soon as he could stop yelling at me. I was being gentle and quiet, although it was very difficult for me after several minutes, and trying to distract/disengage, and he just screamed and yelled for almost an hour. The other night--in the middle of the night, so we were all tired--he woke and wanted to join me in bed, but wanted the oscillating fan which had been trained on his bed (where dh had fallen asleep and was trying to still sleep), because the window fan wasn't blowing directly on him. I explained that daddy needed a fan, so we weren't going to rearrange things, and that he could snuggle with me, or go back to his bed, if he needed a fan blowing directly on him. Commence the screaming. Sigh. I just can't handle the yelling, but when he gets to that place, negotiation doesn't seem possible.

[D_McG]

Originally Posted by enigo

He's just tired. They go nuts when they are tired. When I am trying to get DS to bed, I feel like he's an obnoxious drunk, he's really not completely accountable for his crazy actions when he's so tired.

Totally.
Just take control, IMO. Too tired? Too tired for books too? OK well then let's get this moving (pick him up.. move to bed). If there is some baulking at the book part then you can encourage him to move. I think letting him cry there for 30 minutes just gives him way too much power in the scenario. Keep it light and keep it moving. It's bedtime. I have no time for bedtime drama That's 30 minutes of valuable adult time!

[crowcaw]

This isn't going to be articulate or probably helpful, but my previously I-can-do-it-myself-you-don't-even-want-to-think-of-helping-me dd started the same thing right around 3.5. She was suddenly helpless and couldn't walk 5 feet by herself, do any self-care, etc, and made a lot of noise about it. It wasn't just when she was tired (unless she was always tired, which is possible). I don't think I handled it particularly well because I wasn't sure what to do. At first I waffled between fulfilling her every whim with the thought that she just needed that at the moment and needed to be sure I was there for her vs this is not acceptable and I'm setting certain limits and never helping you when you are yelling at me. Neither approach changed the behavior, but then I was probably too inconsistent so didn't give either a real chance. I finally settled on cheerfully helping her do whatever she needed when I logistically could but if I wasn't able to jump I'd let her know that and also when I would be able to help her (I'll be there when I finish combing your sister;s hair...) and let her carry on in the meantime. At least that was the intent; I wasn't perfect and exasperated yelling and/or eye rolling did occur sometimes. But I am really really stubborn and it was hard, but once I stopped taking the yelling personally I was able to be a bit more zen about it. Talking about it with her didn't seem to register, though I would try in calmer moments. Though I did praise her like crazy if she managed to be patient. The good news is dd is almost 5 and she has not been ruined or turned out to be helpless and whiny or bossy. She's currently independent again, asks nicely (most of the time) for help, is pretty helpful herself, and is happy most of the time. It was something developmental I think and it was long-lived, but it did pass.

[mama2004]

Originally Posted by crowcaw

This isn't going to be articulate or probably helpful, but my previously I-can-do-it-myself-you-don't-even-want-to-think-of-helping-me dd started the same thing right around 3.5. She was suddenly helpless and couldn't walk 5 feet by herself, do any self-care, etc, and made a lot of noise about it. It wasn't just when she was tired (unless she was always tired, which is possible). I don't think I handled it particularly well because I wasn't sure what to do. At first I waffled between fulfilling her every whim with the thought that she just needed that at the moment and needed to be sure I was there for her vs this is not acceptable and I'm setting certain limits and never helping you when you are yelling at me. Neither approach changed the behavior, but then I was probably too inconsistent so didn't give either a real chance. I finally settled on cheerfully helping her do whatever she needed when I logistically could but if I wasn't able to jump I'd let her know that and also when I would be able to help her (I'll be there when I finish combing your sister;s hair...) and let her carry on in the meantime. At least that was the intent; I wasn't perfect and exasperated yelling and/or eye rolling did occur sometimes. But I am really really stubborn and it was hard, but once I stopped taking the yelling personally I was able to be a bit more zen about it. Talking about it with her didn't seem to register, though I would try in calmer moments. Though I did praise her like crazy if she managed to be patient. The good news is dd is almost 5 and she has not been ruined or turned out to be helpless and whiny or bossy. She's currently independent again, asks nicely (most of the time) for help, is pretty helpful herself, and is happy most of the time. It was something developmental I think and it was long-lived, but it did pass.

Actually, that was really helpful. You know, ds has always been so reasonable for someone so pint-sized. I think that's part of why this recent stuff has kind of thrown me for a loop. Even when he's yelling, he uses the word please. I'm thinking that maybe he's perceiving me as being arbitrary (and no doubt, sometimes I am) and that's where the resistance is coming in. I'm just confused as to how to deescalate without capitulating, if I've offered alternatives but still find myself in the middle of a storm. Hopefully, this will be a short-lived phase. Moving him physically/trying to hold him is not helpful, it only feeds the reaction, and I'm not at all comfortable turning a struggle into a full on fight. Usually when we're getting ready for bed, or any other ordinary event, he's all for it, so I'm having a hard time seeing the underlying issue.

[Nillarilla]

I think in a way it can be harder when they are so reasonable for so long and then they do an about face at 3.5. My ds is now almost 4.5 and he is just now moving out of this stage. We have had our share of struggles with "I'm too tired" at bedtime this means that I set the timer and if he's not finished with his bedtime routine i.e. jammies, teeth, stories picked and in bed, by the time the timer goes off we don't read books. That stopped all bedtime battles and I only had to follow through 2 or 3 times.
If he refuses to help me I don't respond and usually he thinks a little and then says 'oh sure I can help you'. I am slowly learning to not engage the behaviour that usually causes an argument between us. We are both hard headed and while he is tiny he usually wins because by the end I am upset and tired and have a headache and he bounces right back and finds some toys to play with. I don't try to control situations anymore or maybe I control them better because I control my response. That's how I see it I can only account for 50% of the situation and he has to account for the rest. I hear 5 is a fabulous age so I'm chugging along until then.