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Infant care: Retracting just a little bit vs really retracting?

post #1 of 18
Thread Starter 
I am pregnant with my first DS. At DD's pedi apt today I spoke with the pedi about how to clean DS's intact penis and how it would be handled during pedi apts. She told me that during the apt she would retract the foreskin to "make sure it works". I told her that I thought that was the old way of thinking and that I had heard it was damaging and painful to retract the foreskin in a baby.

She further explained that the foreskin should never be retracted enough that the glans be exposed because that would be painful. She said that gently retracting the foreskin a little (not enough to expose the glans) is something that she needs to do during the exam to make sure everything is OK. She said "you should never see the glans" and acted like retracting the foreskin in that sort of way is a crazy idea.

I've never seen an intact penis so I don't really know what she is talking about. Does her explanation make sense or is this a red flag?
post #2 of 18
Nope, doesn't make sense. Any retraction done by anyone other than your son is likely going to be painful, especially when done on an infant. There is absolutely no reason to "see if it works". As long as your son is peeing regularly without pain, then it works as well as it needs to. Please either find a new ped, or tell your ped that she is not to touch your son's genitals.

I had a ped that said essentially the same thing, and I told her she was not to do that to him and she did it anyway at his two week checkup. I sat there and cried that I had allowed my tiny newborn to be retracted. Luckily, he was fine, but I never went back to see her, and I told her at the end of the appointment that we wouldn't be back. His next ped we went to never touched his genitals at all. She did take off his dipe to just look, and to check his hips, but she has never touched his penis in the nearly three and a half years that we have been going there, and guess what? He is FINE.
post #3 of 18
Thread Starter 
Greeaaat. (That sarcasim is not against you, of course, but against the pedi.) DH is gonna love this. He is not going to want to switch pedi's At. All. Overall, we have really liked her.

So, with your experience did that pedi pull it back all the way over the glans?

I can only imagine how hard it would/will be to find a pedi in our area with a better idea of how to handle an intact son.
post #4 of 18
It is a red flag. Even retracting a tiny bit it not only totally unnecessary but potentially damaging. If you keep her just tell her hands off the penis because you are not comfortable with it and be prepared to remove her hands if she touches it.

You are the mother you are in charge of what does and does not happen. Just tell her not to touch it and keep her if you really like her otherwise. I am still with the kids ped. even though I have had to stop 1 Dr. from messing with him physically by grabbing his hand and another verbally. I just instituted the hands off the penis rule and all has been fine since other than the one who actually told me ds's foreskin was to long when he went in for his 5y checkup and I just rolled my eyes and told him calmly that he didnt know what he was talking about that ds's foreskin was just perfect for his body.

Sometimes you just have to stick with a Dr. like that and protect your ds the best you can by learning all you can so that when they say something off the wall like that you just roll your eyes and move on.
post #5 of 18
Im just the mom of 4 boys so I might have missed something....

If pee comes out and there is no visual sighs of redness, puss, irritation then WHY would things NOT be OK. Im fine with the testicle check ( one of mine had a hernia) but LEAVE the PENIS alone.
IF it works... leave it alone why would she or any doctor need to see the actual hole the pee comes out?
ok off my soap box
post #6 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBaxter View Post
Im just the mom of 4 boys so I might have missed something....

If pee comes out and there is no visual sighs of redness, puss, irritation then WHY would things NOT be OK. Im fine with the testicle check ( one of mine had a hernia) but LEAVE the PENIS alone.
IF it works... leave it alone why would she or any doctor need to see the actual hole the pee comes out?
ok off my soap box
So true. There is no medical reason to retract a foreskin for a well baby check. There's nothing to find out.
post #7 of 18
Please read this thread for Mothering's resource pages.

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=575627

The definition of retraction and why it's bad.

You may also want to bring and have your doc sign the intact care agreement. She might even find it educational. You are in a great position to educate and help protect her other intact patients from harm.

Intact Care agreement
post #8 of 18
Good for you for having his conversation with your ped! I don't think you need to switch peds, but just repeat that you do not consent to have your son's penis touched at each visit. She can argue, but you can refuse.

That being said-- the things's I've seen my 10 month old do with his penis! I'm much less worried about hurting him while wiping ect now. It's just not that delicate.
post #9 of 18
Thread Starter 
Thanks, everyone. Our pedi is really sweet. After thinking on it, I think if I tell her something like, "I am really not comfortable with you retracting his foreskin at all, can we just skip that?" that she will say OK.

I'm just trying to decide if I should set up a consultation with the pedi to discuss this before he is born or if I should just bring it up before she puts her hands on him at the first visit.
post #10 of 18
If you want to present information to her about the damage of retraction then go ahead and talk to her before his birth. If you are just going to go with the hands off policy then wait till the first visit. At least that is what I would do
post #11 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by texmati View Post
That being said-- the things's I've seen my 10 month old do with his penis! I'm much less worried about hurting him while wiping ect now. It's just not that delicate.

So, so, so true.

But, I still wouldn't let anybody retract his foreskin.

Reading these posts has been very educational for me. I don't know if it's because I'm in Canada, or if I've just been lucky, but I've never had a doctor who had this weird obsession with mucking around with infant penises.
post #12 of 18
I'm not sure if this helps you or not, but I told our GP that I do not want DS's penis retracted. Period. I wasn't mean, just firm. It hasn't been an issue for us.
post #13 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambivalent Dreams View Post
Greeaaat. (That sarcasim is not against you, of course, but against the pedi.) DH is gonna love this. He is not going to want to switch pedi's At. All. Overall, we have really liked her.

So, with your experience did that pedi pull it back all the way over the glans?

I can only imagine how hard it would/will be to find a pedi in our area with a better idea of how to handle an intact son.
Yup, his first ped just moved the skin a bit, but didn't expose the glans. Even so, I knew it wasn't ok and I felt terrible for sitting there and watching her do it.

I agree that if you like her for everything else, I would just bring in some info on how it can be harmful by just pulling it back "a bit but not over the glans" in order to educate her. Maybe she honestly doesn't know and a little education would be helpful for your DS and any other little boys that she takes care of. I would simply say to her that you thought it over and felt uncomfortable with her touching your son's penis at the last appointment and please do not touch it again unless there is an issue that you want addressed, and to please not touch the foreskin at all.
post #14 of 18
While sometimes it seems topsy-turvy that we understand this issue better than Pediatricians and Family Practitioners, it is important to remember the legacy of doing it wrong that even modern doctors have to grapple with.

I remember vividly a story a friend told me about a group of young doctors sitting through a presentation on well-baby checkups. The presenter, who I believe was a senior Ped, stressed that the baby's foreskin should not be retracted. Ever.

One of the recently-minted male docs in the front row just blurted out, "But... but... that's completely counter-intuitive! How do you clean it and check it?" He was told to sit patiently through the rest of the lecture about the development and functions of the foreskin, and he would soon understand.

They were lucky they had an experienced old hand to explain it. Too many doctors of prior generations honestly did not understand intact anatomy and did just awful things to boys -- probably a primary contributor to all the horror stories we've heard from men who were cut in childhood.

Just today (today!) this comment appeared in the NYTimes from a retired surgeon. [I don't believe this is copyrighted material; it is not authored by the paper, but I shortened it anyway.] Can you honestly believe a doctor not knowing whether his 3 eldest sons are circumcised?!? And his beliefs about the foreskin!

I have three middle-aged sons... I can’t remember if they were circumcised, but presumably not. I also have [by my current wife] a young adult son who is not circumcised. At birth he had an adherent foreskin which is treated by forcibly separating the attachment, removing the trapped white smegma and maintaining the release at bathing times. However, his birth occurred during the period of rising wrath over pedophilia and his mother was a very critical person. So, I was just afraid to maintain the necessary retraction during bathing and don’t know what the outcome was. I do know it required no other medical attention.

My stomach flipped over a couple of times when I read that, but that's honestly what nearly the entire US medical profession believed at one time. Unfortunately, the medical profession is as susceptible to hand-me-down information as any of us are, and some things change slowly. But I believe that if American doctors weren't so reluctant about understanding the foreskin, knowledge in this area could advance rapidly.

I think I understand a Ped saying she just wants to check for pinhole opening; that's the only reason she would retract without reaching the glans. But "pinhole" is rather uncommon and has no fixed definition anyway... and most importantly, it resolves itself just fine in 99.9% of cases. We all know painless ballooning is benign, even if not all doctors got the memo.

I reiterate my rule of thumb: everything having to do with the penis moves in the direction of the urine flow. Wiping to clean, keeping an eye on smegma pearls, and even not freaking when DS occasionally pulls his foreskin forward like it's taffy. (It relieves itch, helps the breakdown process and feels awesome.)

When he's ready to try the other direction, he will.
post #15 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambivalent Dreams View Post
I am pregnant with my first DS. At DD's pedi apt today I spoke with the pedi about how to clean DS's intact penis and how it would be handled during pedi apts. She told me that during the apt she would retract the foreskin to "make sure it works". I told her that I thought that was the old way of thinking and that I had heard it was damaging and painful to retract the foreskin in a baby.

She further explained that the foreskin should never be retracted enough that the glans be exposed because that would be painful. She said that gently retracting the foreskin a little (not enough to expose the glans) is something that she needs to do during the exam to make sure everything is OK. She said "you should never see the glans" and acted like retracting the foreskin in that sort of way is a crazy idea.

I've never seen an intact penis so I don't really know what she is talking about. Does her explanation make sense or is this a red flag?
I am against this "little bit" of retraction because it can harm the sphincter action of the tip of the foreskin. The sphincter like band of muscle at the tip is tight to protect your son's glans from contaminants. It dilates when he pees. If you stretch that muscle out you are taking away a protective mechanism. I am thinking your doctor doesn't know this. If she examines your son's foreskin when it is tightly closed, she should leave it alone and ask you if the baby has plenty of wet diapers. In other words, looking at the opening doesn't tell you if it is "too small" or not. So I see no point of the exam. Reports on function from the parent should suffice.

If I were you, I would just wait until the first appointment and politely tell her that she doesn't have permission to touch his penis. You will move it around if necessary. If you want to explain, tell her 1. you have done research and you have not found any reason she needs to do it because you are completely capable of observing and reporting on the function of his penis and/or 2. you have heard too many personal stories of boys being harmed by this exam (you can read these stories on this board). However, you don't have to offer any explanation at all if you don't want to.

Give her this link: http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcisi...o/prepuce.html
post #16 of 18
Did this pedi/ ever feel the need to look at your dd's urethra? Just to make sure it worked? I know some mamas just tell their docs that they are not allowed to remove thier ds's diapers and use this as a safety. As long as your little one is peeing, it's working just fine.
post #17 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambivalent Dreams View Post
Thanks, everyone. Our pedi is really sweet. After thinking on it, I think if I tell her something like, "I am really not comfortable with you retracting his foreskin at all, can we just skip that?" that she will say OK.

I'm just trying to decide if I should set up a consultation with the pedi to discuss this before he is born or if I should just bring it up before she puts her hands on him at the first visit.
If you think that will work thats great! Just make sure to say it while you're holding him and his dipe is still on! ALso watch closely as he gets older - the first time anyone even tried to touch my ds's penis was at his 15mo check-up. I told his dr that his penis is fine, we've never had any problems, and she needed to do her research. She hasn't touched it since, but I remind her every time now.
post #18 of 18
I suspect part of the problem is that pediatricians are very used to seeing problems with little boy's meatus (pee whole,) so they feel a need to look for those problems. Many Dr don't know that common problems they see often, such as meatal stenosis (narrowing of the pee whole) simple do not occur to intact boys, so they don't realize they don't need to check for it.
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