Would you do this? (Conventional meat Q)

[Astrea]

Based on the recs of a couple of mamas here, I've been reading The Mood Cure and would like to implement its suggestions in an attempt to get my depression & anxiety under control, and hopefully get off my Wellbutrin. One of the book's main recommendations is a high-protein diet, mostly meat and eggs (and protein powder, which I don't really want to use as it's not a whole food). We're on a VERY tight budget and there is no way I can afford to eat this way using all organic/grass-fed/pastured/free-range meat, eggs and dairy, beucase I'll need to eat quite a lot of it. I can afford to eat a small amount of true TF animal products in our current budget, but that's by going heavier on the grains, which are pretty much not an option if I follow The Mood Cure's dietary suggestions.

What I'm considering is doing a trial run of this diet, eating according to its suggestions but using conventional dairy, eggs, meat and seafood. I won't get all the wonderful Omega-3s that true TF animal products have, but at least I'll get the protein, which is the main focus in The Mood Cure (I'll be taking supplemental Omega-3). After 2 or 3 months I'll evaluate my progress and if the diet really seems to have helped me, I'll start trying really hard to find ways to stretch our money and work in more TF animal products to replace the conventional ones, over time. It'll be more feasible at that point because I'll be a WAHM, and while most of my income is earmarked for debt and future adoption savings, I'll have a bit of wiggle room. I'll also be more motivated to cut corners and expend extra energy on things like making laundry detergent etc. if I know the savings will be going towards something that actually helps my mental health and that will be a permanent dietary change. It doesn't seem worth it to take a huge financial hit by eating all TF animal products, when this may or may not be a successful dietary change (again, the reason for upping the animal-product intake is primarily to get way more protein).

Does that make sense, from a TF perspective? Do you think it's worth sacrificing my ethics and ideals for a while to see if I can really improve my mental health, and then try to work the ethics and ideals back in later on?

TIA mamas!

[serenbat]

conventional dairy, eggs, meat

my main concern would be what you get from these-soy, added chemicals, grow hormones,antibiotics, etc-what does that do for you?

personally (I know this is not what you wanted to hear) we avoid this at all cost and eat less but as much real foods as you can $$

[crunchy_mama]

It is not a question at all to me I feel so much better on a high protein/low carb diet. I could eat organic beans, rice etc but I feel like **&^%. It is not worth it for me. I generally do grassfed now as I have sources than I can afford but if it is a question of going high carb/grain organic vs low carb conventional- it is conventional. The difference is monumental for me.

[Purple Sage]

I read a really interesting blog, and buried in the comments of this post was this quote from the author:

I don't worry so much about the omega-6 fatty acids and fat soluble "toxins" in common beef. It would be better to eat grass fed, but I don't think that the whole equation is that sensitive.

I think that it is more important to worry about all of the major issues: vit.D, low carb, most calories from saturated fat, no veg. oil, plenty of greens, healthy gut flora.

And that pretty much sums it up for me. Considering the source, if he says that conventional meat (with their unnatural diets and antibiotics and everything) is still healthier than a high carb plant based diet, then I'm inclined to believe him.

Of course that still doesn't address the ethical concerns of CAFO products, so I'm trying to eat more fish (canned Alaskan salmon, sardines, herring - inexpensive, low mercury, and sustainable) which are also high in omega 3 to offset the less-than-ideal fats in the conventional beef.

It is definitely a compromise when you can't afford all grass-fed/pastured animal products, but when it comes to your health I think sometimes you have to compromise.

[Astrea]

Originally Posted by serenbat

my main concern would be what you get from these-soy, added chemicals, grow hormones,antibiotics, etc-what does that do for you?

personally (I know this is not what you wanted to hear) we avoid this at all cost and eat less but as much real foods as you can $$

I hear you, that's been our choice up until now as well. We have been mostly veg*n for years because we can't afford to eat the type of meat that we believe is best (for us and for the environment).

I'm in Canada, so hormones are not an issue, thank goodness, and a
antibiotics are not permitted in dairy products either (not sure on whether they're used on other meats, though). I wouldn't be buying anything with additives of any sort, just whole foods (cuts of meat, whole chickens, plain milk and cheese, etc.).

I just found out one major budget grocery chain has introduced a line of meats that are free from antibiotics and hormones and are "humanely raised" whatever that means, so I'll definitely be checking those out. I'd love if we could afford that!

Originally Posted by crunchy_mama

It is not a question at all to me I feel so much better on a high protein/low carb diet. I could eat organic beans, rice etc but I feel like **&^%. It is not worth it for me. I generally do grassfed now as I have sources than I can afford but if it is a question of going high carb/grain organic vs low carb conventional- it is conventional. The difference is monumental for me.

My suspicion is that this will hold true for me, too. Wish it wasn't the case because I feel really strongly about ethical and traditional animal products but I'm sick of feeling like **&^%.

Originally Posted by Purple Sage

I read a really interesting blog, and buried in the comments of this post was this quote from the author:


And that pretty much sums it up for me. Considering the source, if he says that conventional meat (with their unnatural diets and antibiotics and everything) is still healthier than a high carb plant based diet, then I'm inclined to believe him.

Of course that still doesn't address the ethical concerns of CAFO products, so I'm trying to eat more fish (canned Alaskan salmon, sardines, herring - inexpensive, low mercury, and sustainable) which are also high in omega 3 to offset the less-than-ideal fats in the conventional beef.

It is definitely a compromise when you can't afford all grass-fed/pastured animal products, but when it comes to your health I think sometimes you have to compromise.

Very interesting. What is CAFO?

Farmed fish is one that I will NOT do, no way, no how. Is Alaskan salmon better/more sustainable than other wild salmon? Tell me more! DH hates most seafood anyway so that'll make it tough! He does like pickled herring. Just the sight of that makes me want to hurl. So, maybe he can have that and I'll have yummy shellfish etc.

[tanyalynn]

This is exactly the trade-off we've made. The kids and I are taking a ton of supplements, and they're helping a lot, and in ways that I can't see we could get from any food, pastured or not, so we spend the money there and then eat conventional meat and produce, mostly. I've got a semi-pastured source of eggs that taste a lot better than grocery store eggs, and aren't as expensive as the really great quality, completely pastured eggs available here. I also sometimes get lower fat conventional meat and then buy beef fat or pig fat to render. It's an odd mishmash that's not really whole foods, but we get the animal protein that we do best on and better quality fat.

[Purple Sage]

CAFO = confined animal feeding operation, AKA factory farm.

And all the seafood we buy is wild. I don't know if all canned salmon is wild, though. I think all Alaskan salmon is wild ... I think I read that somwhere, but I could be wrong. I know that I've read that it is more sustainable than Atlantic salmon.

[Magelet]

I think I'd do it. If you possibly can, maybe you can keep at least some TF sourcing? like get a dozen eggs a week that are pastured and supplement with extra conventional protein? (and definitely if you can possibly afford it, keep your fats from good sources. fats have the most benefits when they're good, and the most toxins when they are bad) also, I see a big difference between say, one of those tubes of pre-ground meat, and meat that your butcher ground either specifically for you, or just in general if your butcher grinds his own meat.

[Sayward]

nevermind, not here to argue. this thread has been very illuminating.

[kallyn]

When I was high carb/mostly veggie in college I had *terrible* anxiety problems along with weight gain, just not feeling good all the time, etc. Going low carb made a really drastic difference for the better in every way, even using conventional meat/dairy/egg products. I would say definitely try it out. If it really does work for you, like you said, you can find ways to work better animal products into your budget later. The first step is feeling better though!

DH and I actually had a conversation one time about ways we could cut our budget if we needed to, and we both agreed the meat had to stay even if we had to get regular grocery store meat, just because we both feel so rotten without it.

[kallyn]

Oh I also wanted to add...

When DH and I first decided to try low carb/high protein and fat we needed a lot more meat than we do now. I think first we had to correct an imbalance, and now we need much smaller portions of it. Which also makes affording better quality meat easier down the road.

[JaneS]

I think cutting out the simple carbs is another major factor.

It is mentioned only briefly in The Mood Cure and it should be highlighted more IMO. As TMC describes it, insulin causes the body to sweep out beneficial amino acids from the bloodstream as well as the sugar. So if you are constantly requiring a lot of insulin to keep your blood sugar controlled throughout the day, your body's amino acid store is going to suffer greatly. I think this is the reason why so many people today are low in seratonin... the standard high carb diet.

I've been trying to eat low carb recently and boy do I notice it if I eat high carb. It really is a pronounced mood reaction.

Keeping blood sugar levels from spiking is key and that means a high fat diet too. Traditional fats could also help you a great deal. I would invest in a large tub of coconut oil, and seek out some tallow and lard. I've also gotten some grass fed trim (mostly fat but some meat) at ridiculously low prices ($2lb) and rendered my own fat, and stewed the meat bits. I've also gotten grassfed bones with meat on them for little money, and made great soups.

Bone broths provide so many amino acids that are easily utilized, I would concentrate on those if you decide to eat a lower meat diet. The WAPF mentions this, that bone broths complement a lower protein diet by providing the amino acids that we need in an easily available form.

Eggs are cheap, I would be eating them everyday of the best I could find. What about eggs for breakfast, bone broth soup for lunch and meat/fish with bone broth side (in gravy, sauce or stew) for dinner?

Ditto vitamin D. That made a HUGE difference in how I felt when I got my blood levels up. Had to take 10,000 IU per day in winter for several months, then do 4-5,000 IU per day for maintenance.

[Astrea]

Thanks everyone for chiming in. (Sayward, I for one would have liked to have read what you wrote originally!).

I do have a great source of pastured eggs for super cheap, which we eat abuot 85% of the time, when we eat eggs. So for that. We'll probably keep buying organic milk for Willow, too, until we get raw milk (we're on the cowshare waitlist--that one we're going to splurge on because Willow is a picky eater and gets a lot of her calories from milk).

JaneS, thanks for the specific suggestions Have you used the ideas in The Mood Cure?

I'm already pretty well transitioned to traditional fats. The only bad one we had in the kitchen was canola oil and I ditched that earlier this week and got coconut oil to replace it. Otherwise we have butter, EVOO, and some bacon fat. No tallow or lard source so far but I'm working on it.

ITA about the simple carbs too. Over the years, cutting simple carbs has been a consistent piece of advice from every book, doctor, therapist and naturopath I've consulted. I'll definitely be working on that and the supplementation suggestions from the book too.

[CherryBomb]

I also feel really awful eating high carb (which I've done the last few days, and boy am I feeling it! I have so much more energy when I'm eating higher protein and fat and low carb).

Do what you can. I can't afford nice cuts so we eat mostly high quality ground meats (local grassfed beef and bison as well as pastured pork). The other day I really wanted lamb chops but it's a 45 minute drive to the only place that sells good lamb, so I bought regular Kroger lamb chops.

[FairyRae]

You may want to buy lean conventional meats (awesome a/b the hormone/antibiotic free stuff in Canada!) and supplement fats w/ the good stuff--CO, pastured lard, tallow, butter, etc if you can get it. Most of the bad stuff goes into the fat of animals. (This is the recommendation of Loren Cordain, author of _The Paleo Diet_)

I know how awesome I feel on a lower carb, high fat, moderate protein diet, focusing on lots of meat and veggies and fats. I'd do this in a second. (I do it at times as well, honestly--we are low income atm, but spend more $ on food than on our rent, yet we still need to make comprimises. We do the best we can ) I'd also try to stick to real free range eggs-organic or not, if possible. I love JaneS' meal suggestions too!

[Sayward]

Originally Posted by Astrea

(Sayward, I for one would have liked to have read what you wrote originally!)

This is what I had written :

"I'm *really* surprised by these answers. Honestly, I thought TF/WAPF was all about local, pastured, 'humane', etc. You all constantly justify excessive animal consumption by insisting that pastured animals do not degrade your bodies or the environment in the same way as conventional. But if you're all not practicing what you preach, well what does that say about the theory?

I don't actually want to argue. I'm just . . . very surprised."


But I erased it because I remembered how I sure do get frustrated when WAPF people come into the veg*n forum and basically compare how we're raising our children to child abuse, so I thought maybe I shouldn't roam around TF pointing out hypocrisy. I hang around here because we actually have a lot in common, me and the TFers (I'm a low-carb, no sugar, seed-soaking, lacto fermenting vegan), and I'd rather focus on that. I meant it when I said I really didn't want to argue. But I was struck by these responses (genuinely shocked, since TFers sure do talk a big game) and had trouble biting my tongue. And now I'm posting this, and already regretting it because I sure don't want to get sucked into a debate . . .

[JaneS]

Originally Posted by Astrea

JaneS, thanks for the specific suggestions Have you used the ideas in The Mood Cure?

Which ideas? I did try 5HTP and it did nothing for me. I can't remember what else are her major suggestions... LMK if you have specific questions.

I used to eat low protein and veg*n except for fish about 1x week. Eating meat again, and then eating higher fat was immediately helpful.

As I said, Vitamin D was a revelation. So was magnesium. Lots and lots of magnesium. And also paying attention to my digestive system was a big help as well. Food allergies/triggers can indeed cause major mood changes.

My new research project is the adrenals. I would suggest you look into those as well:
http://www.adrenalfatigue.org/

[pixiepunk]

Sayward - i think there are a lot of people who agree with you. I personally work *very* hard to make sure my family gets meat, dairy and eggs from pastured animals. but i also live in a place where it is easy to find these sources or to raise them yourself (which is mostly what we do), and where it is actually cheaper to buy from local producers who pasture their animals than it is to buy from the grocery store. that's not everyone's situation.

i think the situation here in this thread is that she is suffering and feels that a switch to more meat will help, and looking for support in beginning the transition with hopes that if it truly makes her feel better she will be motivated to make more changes down the road. and i know i for one would encourage everyone to eat in a way that is going to make them feel healthy - for some i think that is a high protein/lots of animal products diet, for others i think they do better with little or no animal products in their diet. oddly enough, my brother and i are *very* different in this regard, and he doesn't tolerate protein in large amounts very well except for fish and eggs (besides the fish he is veg*n), and too many carbs make me an irritable wench and i have to eat a lot of protein, mostly from animals, to feel good. i've met people from India who have been vegans for as far back as their family can trace and probably well beyond, and they get horribly sick from eating meat or dairy of any kind. i don't think there's a one-size-fits-all solution.

so i think most people here are just trying to support a switch that will hopefully improve her health and well-being, that will hopefully down the road facilitate more of a switch to a true TF diet and thus better, more humane sources for her meat and dairy. at least, that's what i got from it.

i, personally, don't think i could eat a diet high in animal proteins that came from CAFO's - for a lot of reasons, including the treatment of the animals which weighs very heavily on me, but not the least of which is that i don't feel so good when i consume them. i would encourage the OP to consider making a switch to the better sources even if the initial experiment with animal proteins doesn't make a dramatic difference for this very reason. i know for me, personally, while making a switch from very high carbs to factory-farmed meat and dairy might have made a small difference (i really am crabby as heck and tired with too many carbs) i noticed a much, much greater difference when i switched the sources of my meat, dairy, and eggs.

[Purple Sage]

Originally Posted by Sayward

But if you're all not practicing what you preach, well what does that say about the theory?

It doesn't say anything about the theory. It says that people can't always afford to do what they think is ideal all the time. Just like I can't afford solar panels or a Prius or private schools or weekly massages or any number of other things which I believe in *in theory* but am not fortunate enough to have as my reality.

Five years ago I could have said the same thing you wrote in your post, but now I know what it's like to have health problems that were caused by diet (and we're talking a whole foods plant based diet, not SAD, and maybe it would have been different if I had known to avoid soy and grains and hadn't spent a third of my life pregnant and/or nursing, but that's all water under the bridge now), so I can definitely sympathize with others who face having to compromise their ideals in order to regain their health. I do sincerely hope you don't find yourself in the same position.

[Astrea]

This thread is really making me think... love that!

Originally Posted by Sayward

This is what I had written :

"I'm *really* surprised by these answers. Honestly, I thought TF/WAPF was all about local, pastured, 'humane', etc. You all constantly justify excessive animal consumption by insisting that pastured animals do not degrade your bodies or the environment in the same way as conventional. But if you're all not practicing what you preach, well what does that say about the theory?

I don't actually want to argue. I'm just . . . very surprised."


But I erased it because I remembered how I sure do get frustrated when WAPF people come into the veg*n forum and basically compare how we're raising our children to child abuse, so I thought maybe I shouldn't roam around TF pointing out hypocrisy. I hang around here because we actually have a lot in common, me and the TFers (I'm a low-carb, no sugar, seed-soaking, lacto fermenting vegan), and I'd rather focus on that. I meant it when I said I really didn't want to argue. But I was struck by these responses (genuinely shocked, since TFers sure do talk a big game) and had trouble biting my tongue. And now I'm posting this, and already regretting it because I sure don't want to get sucked into a debate . . .

I think those are good and valuable points. It seems like there's quite a range in what's considered TF, though--the WAPF Shopping Guide includes Spam as a good grocery choice : which is certainly a CAFO product.

My impossible-to-prove suspicion is that here in Canada, a lot of meat and dairy production is not as bad as it is in the States--this is based on DH and I both growing up in rural areas and seeing (like, from the inside) lots of dairies that were very nice and clean and certainly humane, run by caring farmers. They sold their milk to the mainstream, conventional grocery store chains.

I have no real idea about beef cattle or pork, though. I'm definitely suspicious of conventional eggs and poultry.

I am working hard on finding humane and sustainable meat sources. It's really really hard, though, because those products are generally around 2-10x the cost of conventional, and are very hard to procure without a car (which we don't have). DH eventually wants to learn to hunt. It's all such a huge, expensive, and intensive switch, and in the meantime our health and moods are continuing to degrade If I could get the amount of protein it sounds like I need (20g per meal) from primarily veg*n sources, I would, but I sure can't figure out a way to do it that I could actually stomach (and that doesn't require protein powder and soy products). I'm a huge so I don't feel very thrilled about being in this position, I guarantee.

Originally Posted by JaneS

Which ideas? I did try 5HTP and it did nothing for me. I can't remember what else are her major suggestions... LMK if you have specific questions.

I used to eat low protein and veg*n except for fish about 1x week. Eating meat again, and then eating higher fat was immediately helpful.

As I said, Vitamin D was a revelation. So was magnesium. Lots and lots of magnesium. And also paying attention to my digestive system was a big help as well. Food allergies/triggers can indeed cause major mood changes.

My new research project is the adrenals. I would suggest you look into those as well:
http://www.adrenalfatigue.org/

Interesting, I'll look into the adrenal fatigue stuff, which I strongly suspect in myself--I remember my naturopath talking about it. And the Vit D and magnesium. Did you ever try St John's Wort? She (the author) also recommends an arsenal of supplements for everyone to take at all times (including Vit D and magnesium, actually), and other supplements for the three other "false mood" types that she identifies (all of which I have to some extent or other, blah).

Originally Posted by pixiepunk

Sayward - i think there are a lot of people who agree with you. I personally work *very* hard to make sure my family gets meat, dairy and eggs from pastured animals. but i also live in a place where it is easy to find these sources or to raise them yourself (which is mostly what we do), and where it is actually cheaper to buy from local producers who pasture their animals than it is to buy from the grocery store. that's not everyone's situation.

i think the situation here in this thread is that she is suffering and feels that a switch to more meat will help, and looking for support in beginning the transition with hopes that if it truly makes her feel better she will be motivated to make more changes down the road. and i know i for one would encourage everyone to eat in a way that is going to make them feel healthy - for some i think that is a high protein/lots of animal products diet, for others i think they do better with little or no animal products in their diet. oddly enough, my brother and i are *very* different in this regard, and he doesn't tolerate protein in large amounts very well except for fish and eggs (besides the fish he is veg*n), and too many carbs make me an irritable wench and i have to eat a lot of protein, mostly from animals, to feel good. i've met people from India who have been vegans for as far back as their family can trace and probably well beyond, and they get horribly sick from eating meat or dairy of any kind. i don't think there's a one-size-fits-all solution.

so i think most people here are just trying to support a switch that will hopefully improve her health and well-being, that will hopefully down the road facilitate more of a switch to a true TF diet and thus better, more humane sources for her meat and dairy. at least, that's what i got from it.

i, personally, don't think i could eat a diet high in animal proteins that came from CAFO's - for a lot of reasons, including the treatment of the animals which weighs very heavily on me, but not the least of which is that i don't feel so good when i consume them. i would encourage the OP to consider making a switch to the better sources even if the initial experiment with animal proteins doesn't make a dramatic difference for this very reason. i know for me, personally, while making a switch from very high carbs to factory-farmed meat and dairy might have made a small difference (i really am crabby as heck and tired with too many carbs) i noticed a much, much greater difference when i switched the sources of my meat, dairy, and eggs.

Where do you live? I want to move there for your amazing food options!

Everything you wrote in your last paragraph is what's giving me pause about this. Why does it have to be so hart to eat well?

Originally Posted by Purple Sage

It doesn't say anything about the theory. It says that people can't always afford to do what they think is ideal all the time. Just like I can't afford solar panels or a Prius or private schools or weekly massages or any number of other things which I believe in *in theory* but am not fortunate enough to have as my reality.

Five years ago I could have said the same thing you wrote in your post, but now I know what it's like to have health problems that were caused by diet (and we're talking a whole foods plant based diet, not SAD, and maybe it would have been different if I had known to avoid soy and grains and hadn't spent a third of my life pregnant and/or nursing, but that's all water under the bridge now), so I can definitely sympathize with others who face having to compromise their ideals in order to regain their health. I do sincerely hope you don't find yourself in the same position.

I'm a definiite idealist and I hate that I compromise because of a combination of health and money. Hence my angst

We have been eating a very much whole food, plants based, relatively low protein diet until this point, FWIW. I always believed, like most veg*ns, that we don't need all that much protein. I mean, you don't see many North Americans walking around with kwashiorkor. What I'm starting to wonder, though, is if there's a difference between being truly protein-starved (kwashiorkor) and not getting enough of it to thrive. KWIM?