Having a very hard time with ds starting kindy (x-posted in edu)

[MommaMoo]

I was very excited to get DS into a lovely little charter school that is a short drive away. It's a gentle, nurturing place that doesn't force academics in kindy. A big part of the curriculum is teaching respect for the earth (they even have compost buckets) and being kind to each other. The teacher is amazing and loved by kids, parents, and the school staff. I've seen her in action, as I've sat in ds's class for the past 2 days, and I was very impressed. She is wonderful with even the most difficult child, doesn't play favorites, and zeroes in on the kids who need the most nurturing. She uses gentle discipline and teaches kids through natural consequences. He LOVES the school and the teacher, and just blossomed in that setting. So there's no problem with the school.

I admittedly am feeling very upset at being separated from my son for 4.5 hours a day, since we've been together every day since he was born. I've cried over it and dealt with my misgivings and I know that this situation is the best for him (and me, and ds's little brother who is on the way). DS is highly active and curious and needs a lot of stimulation. I cannot provide him with all he needs at home.

Now the problem. He is *extremely* attached to me and absolutely refuses to go to school unless I sit in class with him. This is nothing new and has been the main source of the difficulty that we have with him and it also makes DH and I incredibly angry sometimes. He has been so ridiculously clingy since he was a baby. At that age it was to be expected and didn't bother me, but it NEVER lessened. It would take forever to go into all the details, so I'll use a recent one. We were in Disneyland in July, and MIL was with us. DS is close with her and comfortable. She was right next to him while he sat in his stroller, and dh and I were about 30 feet away from him in line at the bakery. We were in full view, and that was too much separation for ds. He screamed and cried, getting louder and louder, until dh went over to him. We couldn't leave him to do anything on our own, since we didn't want to leave MIL to deal with an uncontrollably shrieking kid. It just feels so controlling at this point, that this is what he does he get his way. He didn't go to preschool and he almost never stays with babysitters.

DH says that all kids are like that, that they don't like being separated from mom. He thinks we "babied" ds too much and waited too long for this separation. This morning, ds was supposed to do kindy on his own for the first time and dh was taking him, but ds starting crying and tantruming and wouldn't leave the house. He was flailing and fighting dh when he tried to pick him up. DH gets angry and says stupid things, like "Well, I'm disappointed in you and I'm not playing with you until you go to school!!" I mean, I am admittedly angry with ds right now for doing this again, but I don't think that saying those types of things helps much.

I know that I have been part of the problem with ds's behavior. He is a very sweet and gentle child, and although I have been pushing him for a long time to be more independent, maybe I didn't do it strongly enough or in the right way. I've always been very protective of him. Even in comparison to children in his age range, he is very naive and usually the sweetest and most openly enthusiastic of the group. I figured I could avoid any anxiety I might be transferring to him at kindy by having dh drop him off, but that was a disaster.

Okay, so am I doing the right thing by making him go to kindy? I'm going to work out some way with the teacher that we can get my kid to stay in school without me. It wouldn't be beyond him to shriek his head off and insist on waiting in the parking lot until I return. Is this behavior in the normal range, or is something "wrong" with my kid? Oh, and I cannot home school him, but I will take him out of school and start kindy next year if he truly cannot handle it. But then I may not be able to get him back into this school.

Thanks a million to anyone who made it through this post
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[pbjmama]

Have you sat down and had a talk with him about why you can't stay every day? I agree that working with the teacher or counselor at the school about how you can help him adjust. How about something like after a few minutes of being in the room a teacher comes in and wants to talk to you outside, you let your ds know you will be back after lunch time? Something like that?

While his behavior is out of the ordinary I wouldn't say that something is wrong with him. But he is old enough to understand that sometimes you have to be separated for short periods of time. Now he needs you and his teachers to help him cope for those time periods.

[MommaMoo]

Originally Posted by pbjmama

Have you sat down and had a talk with him about why you can't stay every day? I agree that working with the teacher or counselor at the school about how you can help him adjust. How about something like after a few minutes of being in the room a teacher comes in and wants to talk to you outside, you let your ds know you will be back after lunch time? Something like that?

DH and I can talk to DS until we are blue in the face. He just responds with "I can't do it!" I don't think I could leave while class is in session. He would get hysterical and disrupt everything. Heck, whenever I used the BATHROOM (which is located in the small classroom), he would get upset. The last time I did it, though, he cuddled up to his teacher, which was a good sign.

I'm just at the point where I need to know if something is up with him. Either he needs psychological help or he just freaks out like that all the time because he is used to it working. If that is the case, both DH and I are beyond sick of it and won't put up with it anymore. I'm just so frustrated and angry that I want to know why he's doing this. It's just that there's nothing we can do about it when he acts like this sometimes. For example, bedtime. He flat-out refuses to be in a bedroom by himself at night, no matter if the lights are on and the door is open and we are right outside. So I have to sit in the bedroom for an hour every night and wait for him to go to sleep. Short of strapping him to the bed or putting a deadlock on the door, there is nothing we can do about it. We just got him out of our bed a couple weeks ago since I could no longer stand being beaten up at night and I was afraid he would hit me in the stomach. So we moved his bed into our room, flush with our bed. It's about foot lower than our bed, and that was too much for him to handle. He insisted on being squished up against me. DH and I had had it, we absolutely refused to allow him into the bed, no matter how much he freaked out. It worked. He doesn't ask to get in the bed anymore. I guess situations like that are what lead me to believe that he is just doing that to get his way. Not that he's a lying manipulator, just human. So perhaps just letting him freak out at school is what I need to do.

[ssh]

Originally Posted by MommaMoo

DH says that all kids are like that, that they don't like being separated from mom. He thinks we "babied" ds too much and waited too long for this separation.
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I disagree with your DH. I don't think you babied your DS too much or waited too long for the separation. When a child is ready to do things separately from their parents has to do with their temperament and emotional development. We always honored our DDs need to be with one of us and she become more independent on her own. She was ready to go to preschool and didn't mind us leaving and she decided to sleep in her own bed. If anything meeting her need for us made her more secure when she was ready.

The point is this isn't your fault, it's a temperament and emotional development issue so it isn't your DSs fault either. Kids are just ready for stuff at different ages. Does his school mind if you stay in class? One of my DDs classmates last year in preschool wanted his mom to stay most of the time until the last month and a half of school, then he would look at her and say " I have my friends". He was just ready.

[MommaMoo]

Originally Posted by ssh

I disagree with your DH. I don't think you babied your DS too much or waited too long for the separation. When a child is ready to do things separately from their parents has to do with their temperament and emotional development. We always honored our DDs need to be with one of us and she become more independent on her own. She was ready to go to preschool and didn't mind us leaving and she decided to sleep in her own bed. If anything meeting her need for us made her more secure when she was ready.

The point is this isn't your fault, it's a temperament and emotional development issue so it isn't your DSs fault either. Kids are just ready for stuff at different ages. Does his school mind if you stay in class? One of my DDs classmates last year in preschool wanted his mom to stay most of the time until the last month and a half of school, then he would look at her and say " I have my friends". He was just ready.

Thank you for that. I don't agree with my DH either, I'm just so frustrated b/c DS's extreme clinginess extends to so many aspects of my life.

I can't stay in class with him all day. It's 4.5 hours long and it's a tiny classroom. There's really nowhere I could sit without being in the way. And I'd never have time to get things done around the house or run errands. Besides, to watch him in school, he really does look ready for it all. I'm OK with some crying and freaking out at separation. That's just to be expected with some kids. But if it just goes on and on and he ends up depressed or regressing because of it, then I'll take him out. For the two days he did kindy with me, though, he was absolutely crazy about it. So I suppose I need to take a chance to see if he will warm up to it without me. His clinginess has not lessened at all as he's aged, so I don't think he'll ever get over it unless he's put into a situation where he HAS to. It's very, very hard for me though

[pbjmama]

Originally Posted by MommaMoo

I'm just at the point where I need to know if something is up with him.

Okay, now this is where you can take action! Ask his teacher what her honest take is. Get him evaluated. The school can do some, you can see a child psychologist, social worker, occupational therapist, etc.

Will he elaborate on why he can't do it?

[MommaMoo]

Originally Posted by pbjmama

Okay, now this is where you can take action! Ask his teacher what her honest take is. Get him evaluated. The school can do some, you can see a child psychologist, social worker, occupational therapist, etc.

Will he elaborate on why he can't do it?

Well, so far the teacher has told me that she's had kids like DS in her class before. I didn't get into all of his issues, though. I will fill her in on everything.

All DS will say when pressed is that he can't do it. It's very frustrating because he can never give me a reason why he acts the way he does.

[chfriend]

Have you and DH explored why this makes you angry?

[zeldamomma]

I noticed in your signature that he just turned 5. Is there any chance he isn't ready for kindy this year?

I think it might be worthwhile to address your son's separation anxiety, even if you do choose to wait until next year for kindergarten. If it were me, I would begin by talking to my ped. about what we might do. It sounds like he is genuinely upset about your going-- it's not that he's trying to manipulate you, but that he has feelings he doesn't know what to do with, and he needs help figuring that out.

[MommaMoo]

Originally Posted by chfriend

Have you and DH explored why this makes you angry?

Well, it doesn't really require much exploring. When for his entire life a 5 year old is constantly hanging onto you and refusing leave your side, play by himself, or give you a moment's peace, it gets pretty annoying. No, things like taking him to the park don't help. He just sticks like glue and wants me to dig in the sand with him, or go on the play equipment with him. Trying to have a conversation? It's pretty hard with an overly enthusiastic kid constantly interrupting and running around yelling. Trying to be affectionate? Ever since DS was a baby, he has gone absolutely INSANE if DH so much as lays a finger on me. He still tires to run up to us and shove us apart if there is any sign of intimacy, but he is sent to time-out for this now (yes we use time out) and now he will often just hit things, sulk, or cry if DH sits next to me on the couch with his arm around me. As a baby and toddler he would also go completely insane if DH or I so much as flinched in a direction away from him. How dare we even take our attention off of him and go somewhere else! And it goes on and on. And I am not exaggerating. So yes, we do get quite angry over all of these things because since DS was born it has felt like he has been trying to control every move we make. And so now kindergarten, which he loves, is going to be tossed aside because he throws a huge fit and clings to furniture and refuses to leave the house unless I sit in class with him all day. And, I am angry because I am nearly 5 months pregnant and have not been able to devote any time or energy to planning for this baby because of the hell we are going through with DS. I know how wrong it is to be angry with DS over it, but it just seems like the capper to it all.
Well, there's our anger in a nutshell. Thanks for asking that question, it probably helped to type all of it out.

[pbjmama]

Originally Posted by MommaMoo

Well, so far the teacher has told me that she's had kids like DS in her class before. I didn't get into all of his issues, though. I will fill her in on everything.

All DS will say when pressed is that he can't do it. It's very frustrating because he can never give me a reason why he acts the way he does.

I'm curious how the teacher has dealt with the other situations. I don't think she necessarily needs all the info but together hopefully you can come up with some things to try to help your ds through this phase. Even if he isn't ready for K perhaps a part time arrangement would be a good transition for him.

Although it would be helpful if you ds could tell you he may not have the ability or understanding of why. I want to again encourage you to see outside help. I understand why you feel angry and you obviously understand this can't continue forever. I mean whats going to happen when you are in labor and having your baby? It is hard now and you can't see a solution but this is something your family can overcome.

[odenata]

Originally Posted by pbjmama

Get him evaluated. The school can do some, you can see a child psychologist, social worker, occupational therapist, etc.

I think this is what I would do. Honestly, your description in the above post goes far beyond any separation anxiety I have seen in kids. Especially with a new baby coming, I think it will be important to find an answer to this issue for your family.

A note - at five, my DD sometimes has trouble articulating why she is upset. With feelings this strong, my guess is your DS doesn't really understand why he feels like this, so he can't tell you, either.

I wish I had something more helpful to offer you, but I hope you are able to find a solution. And, as PPs have said, don't think this is your fault. Also, I find it easy to understand why you are angry and frustrated. This is stressful for all of you, not just your DS. I don't think you can keep this up. It really sounds like it's time to get some type of outside help so you don't end up resenting your son.

[MommaMoo]

Originally Posted by odenata

I think this is what I would do. Honestly, your description in the above post goes far beyond any separation anxiety I have seen in kids. Especially with a new baby coming, I think it will be important to find an answer to this issue for your family.

A note - at five, my DD sometimes has trouble articulating why she is upset. With feelings this strong, my guess is your DS doesn't really understand why he feels like this, so he can't tell you, either.

I wish I had something more helpful to offer you, but I hope you are able to find a solution. And, as PPs have said, don't think this is your fault. Also, I find it easy to understand why you are angry and frustrated. This is stressful for all of you, not just your DS. I don't think you can keep this up. It really sounds like it's time to get some type of outside help so you don't end up resenting your son.

DS has never been like any other child I've ever seen. Even when he was a baby, he acted totally different. I've been searching for the possible problem for a long time. Perhaps he has SPD, I don't know. Unfortunately, both DH and I have been resentful of DS for some time. This makes him even more clingy and insecure. Yesterday he could tell how upset I was over his morning theatrics, so he spent the day trying to be very affectionate. DH and I have completely lost it with DS many times. We've never hit him, but done our share of yelling. I have spent a lot of time praying that this baby will not be like DS. I'm afraid that if this baby is easier than DS, I will think of him as "The good child" and DS will pick up the signal that he's the "Bad" one. For years I've felt like I'm in an abusive relationship with DS (with him as abuser.) I will talk to DS's teacher and hopefully get some help for him. I tried to get him evaluated a year or so ago, but as he refused to speak to the psychologist and could not possibly be separated from me, it was useless. That's when I thought he was on the spectrum, which both the psychologist and I agreed that he does not seem to be.
Well I guess I could go on and on about this issue. I know that it needs to be dealt with ASAP, and now with a school involved it will hopefully be easier to get some help.

[odenata]

Originally Posted by MommaMoo

DS has never been like any other child I've ever seen. Even when he was a baby, he acted totally different. I've been searching for the possible problem for a long time. Perhaps he has SPD, I don't know. Unfortunately, both DH and I have been resentful of DS for some time. This makes him even more clingy and insecure. Yesterday he could tell how upset I was over his morning theatrics, so he spent the day trying to be very affectionate. DH and I have completely lost it with DS many times. We've never hit him, but done our share of yelling. I have spent a lot of time praying that this baby will not be like DS. I'm afraid that if this baby is easier than DS, I will think of him as "The good child" and DS will pick up the signal that he's the "Bad" one. For years I've felt like I'm in an abusive relationship with DS (with him as abuser.) I will talk to DS's teacher and hopefully get some help for him. I tried to get him evaluated a year or so ago, but as he refused to speak to the psychologist and could not possibly be separated from me, it was useless. That's when I thought he was on the spectrum, which both the psychologist and I agreed that he does not seem to be.
Well I guess I could go on and on about this issue. I know that it needs to be dealt with ASAP, and now with a school involved it will hopefully be easier to get some help.

I really feel for you. It sounds like you have been struggling and searching for an answer for awhile now. I hope you can find some good help and answers before the baby comes.

[MommaMoo]

I am so, so thankful for all of the kind responses I have received. It makes me tear up to know that I can come on here and share such a difficult part of my life and be shown such kindness and understanding. Thank you

[zinemama]

To be honest, this doesn't sound like a psychological issue to me - as in, he's got "issues" - although of course, I could be completely wrong.

To me it sounds like this is a child who has figured out a very effective way of getting exactly what he wants, and whose parents have played right along. And now, after five years, you are paying the price.

As you saw from the instance in which you and your dh put your feet down about him getting in your bed, when you actually set boundaries and expectations and are firm about them, he is quite capable of understanding and adjusting his behavior.

I'm not trying to be harsh here; I can understand how initially it must have seemed easiest and perhaps more "natural" to accomodate your son's inclination never to be away from you. But as you and your dh recognize, enough is enough, and the behavior you describe would be enough to make any parent frustrated and angry.

I think you would be doing your ds a great disservice (not to mention your family as a whole) by allowing him to skip kindergarten this year. Because in the absence of any other changes in your parenting, you'll be in the exact same boat when next September rolls around.

My advice: send him to kindergarten. Whether he is screaming or tantruming or whatever, let him know that he is going. Pick him up and put him in the car. Carry him screaming from the car into the classroom. Kiss him goodbye and leave quickly. I would be very surprised if this boy who you describe as sweet, enthusiastic and gentle does not calm down quickly and begin to display those very qualities.

I'm not doubting that your son's anxiety about being separated from you is real. After all, he's been given no opportunity to gently and naturally become used to smaller separations from his parents over the past five years. But I also think that he will be just fine once you allow him to learn that a short separation from you is ok and even enjoyable. Best of luck.

(Now, if weeks go by and he screams the entire time he's in kindergarten, sure, an evaluation is in order. But I don't think this should be your first step.)

[stik]

I'm glad you're feeling reassured. To me, your son doesn't sound "extremely attached," and I don't think his behavior is in the normal range. He sounds extremely anxious, and clearly, your entire family is suffering as a result.

It doesn't surprise me at all that a 5yo can't explain his motives - I think most 5yos lack that kind of introspective ability. They often understand their impulses and are goal-driven in the moment, but putting those things into words and explaining them to other people is a different challenge.

I think your instinct that he needs psychological help is right on. I also think that you are doing the right thing when you set boundaries on his behavior and his reactions to you and your dh. I think it might also be helpful to call the school and ask for an SST (student study team) to be assembled to look at your son's difficulties and support the goal of having him attend kindergarten independently. At a public school, this would mean that a team (his teacher, probably the school counselor, possibly the school psych if there is one, an administrator, and you or your dh) would have a meeting where you would discuss your concerns and talk about strategies for meeting his needs. At SST is the first step in a special education evaluation, but a lot of SSTs don't go that far. As a team, you will make a plan for improving the situation. The plan is reviewed periodically to see if it is working.

At a guess, the first thing the school will suggest is that you try dropping your ds off and leaving. You might want to try that before calling a meeting just to see what happens. You can let his teacher know in advance if you think that would be helpful. I wouldn't tell your ds until you get him into the classroom, because it sounds to me like anticipation is just making him anxious. But you should calmly tell him goodbye and then go *and don't come back until the end of school unless the school calls and tells you it is a medical emergency.* It's hard, but it's probably a necessary step in demonstrating the need for services if you need to look beyond the SST to an IEP or 504 plan.

[churndash]

I really, really feel for you, OP.

My youngest child is very intense, very emotional and can carry on for hours and even days over an issue. I have given in to her in the past, just to get her to STOP. So I really do get where you are coming from in wanting to get the screaming, tantrum, crying behavior to go away and how easy it is just to comply with whatever it his he wants just to make it stop.

I also don't think there is any point to beating yourself up over what you did or didn't do in the past. That's the past. Moving forward, it is clear that something in your household needs to change, and soon, because you cannot keep living this way.

By all means, if you have the resources, seek out a family counselor. At the very least you will learn new strategies for coping with your son's behavior.

But also consider this: for five years your son has learned that he can get whatever he wants, whenever he wants it, if he just screams and cries loud enough and long enough. Why should he stop doing what he's been doing, if it's working for him? Why will he ever stop, if he can continue to get the people in his life to submit to his every demand?

[JessBB]

Whatever you do, please do NOT give up on kindy. It's obvious that for your mental and physical health, you need this separation from your ds, and that is absolutely ok. Hugs, mama.

[D_McG]

Originally Posted by JessBB

Whatever you do, please do NOT give up on kindy. It's obvious that for your mental and physical health, you need this separation from your ds, and that is absolutely ok. Hugs, mama.

I agree!

I would have him evaluated.