grade skipping and retention situation possible- need input

[kittie313]

Hi, I'm usually over at Learning At Home and Beyond but I felt this was more applicable over here. My girls learn at home with a public k12 virtual academy, which makes them technically public school students. We have a certified teacher for each girl supervisiong my teaching and their progress, and to just keep an eye on how we are doing. For our family it is the only option really that will work.

Anyway, background over so now let's get to the situation at hand.

My oldest dd is in 2nd grade with OHVA. She has multiple learning challenges, and is having trouble with reading and math. Her teacher looked at her progress from last school year, and said that while she did make great strides last year they would have hoped for more progress than she made, and mentioned that we may *possibly* want to consider retaining her depending on her progress this school year. Now I tried to get our local ps to retain her in K to repeat for this issue that our current teacher is commenting on, so I see what she's talking about and I agree in general with it.

HOWEVER.........

My second girl is in 1st grade. She is in the accelerated learner's program, and is working above grade level. This school year, she is going to be doing science, history, and art on the same level as her older sister and is most likely going to pass her sister in math and reading. HER teacher is talking about possibly putting in paperwork to skip her to 3rd grade next year because of how well she's doing.

So, the situation is this. If both teachers put this at the end of the year as their recommendation, what do I do? My first instinct is to not have dd2 at a higher grade than dd1, but I don't object to them being in the same grade. In fact, I already talked to dd1 about this very possibility with them being in the same grade next year and she understands it and is completely ok with it. She may be 7, but she understands that she and her sister learn very differently and that sometimes things are harder for her than they are for her sister (since we only do about 1/2 their subjects together she doesn't realize that her sister is learning easier all across the board, and I intend to always keep math and phonics/lang arts separate for these two so that they have the ability to go their pace in those areas). She likes doing some lessons with her sister, and they have fun. DD1 helps dd2 with cutting and some coloring and such, while dd2 helps dd1 with getting the concept that we're learning down. It is great to watch them together, so I don't object to them being the same grade on paper. But to have the younger one in a higher grade than her older sister? That concerns me. I was thinking of allowing dd2 to skip only if dd1 isn't retained, so that I either have 2 in 3rd grade or in 2nd grade next fall.

I know this is a bit early to start thinking about this, but these rec's are based on the girls' progress last school year and where they are at academically at this exact moment. What would you do in my spot? No matter what we decide, we're still going to work with both girls to maximize their potential, although we may hold dd2 back just a little bit to keep her from going quite as fast through her materials she's doing now.

[beanma]

I agree with what you've said. I'm not a big fan of retention, in general, so I might be inclined to let the younger dd skip up.

Is the older dd getting some special help for her difficulties? I'd research that more before I'd have her repeat a grade.

[kathymuggle]

I think it is highly likely your younger DD will eventually pass your older daughter in "grade level" - it is just the nature of your family. Maybe it is better to happen now than later?

In any event, treat each girl individually, do what is best for each one, and do not overly focus on grade level.

[ChristaN]

What a tough situation. I can comment from the perspective of a parent who has had a child skip a grade. We hsed for a bit and tried a lot of schooling options for dd11. She finally skipped 5th and is now an 8th grader. The school used something called the Iowa Acceleration Scale that looked at a lot of factors from achievement and ability scores to social factors including how she did with age peers, older kids, teachers, and her family situation.

The IAS has a few factors that are deal breakers, so to speak. As I recall, any of the following would rule out a grade skip: an IQ or ability score below the 98th percentile, achievement scores not being at a certain point (can't recall what that was exactly), the child not being in favor of a skip, or if the child skipping would place him/her into or above the grade of an older sibling.

Now, I have to say that I don't personally agree with every recommendation of the IAS and I do know one person whose child skipped into the same grade as an older sibling. It worked well for their family.

The IAS, for instance, doesn't recommend skipping a transition year -- the last year of elementary or middle school -- which is exactly what dd11 did. It actually was probably a great year for her to skip b/c the other kids were less aware that she had skipped so she didn't stand out (save for being a short 6th grader b/c she was still 9 y/o ).

You might want to take a look at the Acceleration Institute's website though, to start researching this: http://www.accelerationinstitute.org/

[whatsnextmom]

It seems to me, with a virtual acadamy, both children should be able to work on their own individual levels without their grade level mattering at all. What's the point of learning at home if you have to concern yourself with grade levels KWIM? Can't your eldest be in 2nd grade with some first grade levels and your youngest be a 1st grader with some 2nd grade or beyond levels? Since you don't have the classroom setting, since the girls aren't in a position of learning along with a group of kids, I'd keep them both in their natural grade but get the higher and lower level curriculum they individually need. If your youngest finishes the curriculum prior 12th grade age, well, she'll graduate early. If your eldest needs another year to finish, she can take an additional year.

This is one of those areas where common opinion doesn't line up with actual research. People tend to see retention as beneficial and acceleration has the worst thing you can do to a child. In truth, it's usually the opposite. Retention generally does more harm than good. Acceleration is generally successful and appreciated by those who do it.

My eldest has had 1 full grade accelerated and additional subject accelerations. She's heading into high school. It's been the best thing we could have done for her both academically and socially. However, her moving was because it was exceedingly difficult for her to work at her own level in a class full of children at the lower grade both academically and socially. If we'd been homeschooling, I don't know that we'd have bothered changing the grade label and just had her graduate when she was "done" even if she were technically a sophomore or junior.

[kittie313]

Well, the reason I ask this is because there will come a day likely when my girls do end up in the local ps (especially if we end up being able to find a house in our budget in the district we WANT to live in, its one of the best in the state). I'm trying to look at this as a fact that I don't want to make a choice that will hurt them in a couple years when we have to utilize the local ps while I go to grad school. Currently my oldest is considered grade 2 with some grade 1 subjects, and my youngest is grade 1 and is in grade 2 material for some subjects, and about to move another to grade 2 with one possibly hitting grade 3 this school year. Right now it works for us, but we are also trying to see the big picture for when I do head off to grad school (I won't be able to get my master's online like I am doing with my Bachelor's)

[eepster]

I would let your younger DD work as far ahead as she needs to and not hold her back for the sake of your older DD's feelings.

For your older DD, I would request testing before retention. If her sister is out pacing her quite so dramatically, a LD (dyslexia, dysgraphia, etc) seems like a strong possibility. Since it is technically part of the public schools system, it should be possible to get them to provide testing.

[kittie313]

Originally Posted by eepster

I would let your younger DD work as far ahead as she needs to and not hold her back for the sake of your older DD's feelings.

For your older DD, I would request testing before retention. If her sister is out pacing her quite so dramatically, a LD (dyslexia, dysgraphia, etc) seems like a strong possibility. Since it is technically part of the public schools system, it should be possible to get them to provide testing.

We're in process now of getting dd1 a 504 or IEP in place. We're just waiting for testing to be completed, all the other paperwork is ready. That was started last school year for dd1 at the same time they put dd2 into the accelerated learner's program. The retention is just being seen as a possibility for us to consider at this point, pending the testing. We have suspected dyslexia since she was 4yo, and our teacher she had last year (the one dd2 has this year in fact) confirmed our suspicions and said that she was so sure we'd get a diagnosis that she started paperwork for the services before she even suggested that we formally request testing.

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by kittie313

Well, the reason I ask this is because there will come a day likely when my girls do end up in the local ps

Originally Posted by kittie313

We're in process now of getting dd1 a 504 or IEP in place. We're just waiting for testing to be completed, all the other paperwork is ready.

My experience with public school is that kids with special needs are NOT retained. They are worked with at their level in ways they learn in core subjects through pull out programs, but are with age mates for as much of the day as possible.

I would NOT consent to holding back your older DD, but I would advocate for special help for her -- special materials, special tutoring, etc. Repeating the same material in the same way over and over is most likely not the answer for her.

As far as your younger DD, there are a whole other set of issues for kids who skip, esp. once they reach middle school. I would recommend weighing those issues carefully before making a decision about how she is classified, esp. if the perspective school system has a solid gifted program.

[Lisa1970]

I absolutely would not allow them to retain her. If she has a learning disability, that needs to be worked on. Repeating a year of school will not fix her learning disability. She will still have it and needs to work through it. They can do testing, and by law, have to do testing if you request it. Then they can do an IEP to give her services for her areas she needs help in. Simply repeating a year of what she already did is a stupid short term solution to simply make it appear she is doing better. She cannot continue to repeat every single year of school. You have rights and your child has rights and it sounds to me like they are underserving. The damage they will do to her self esteem is nasty, plus, retaining a child never is a solution. She needs help for her problems, not punishments.

[eepster]

Originally Posted by kittie313

We're in process now of getting dd1 a 504 or IEP in place. We're just waiting for testing to be completed, all the other paperwork is ready. That was started last school year for dd1 at the same time they put dd2 into the accelerated learner's program. The retention is just being seen as a possibility for us to consider at this point, pending the testing. We have suspected dyslexia since she was 4yo, and our teacher she had last year (the one dd2 has this year in fact) confirmed our suspicions and said that she was so sure we'd get a diagnosis that she started paperwork for the services before she even suggested that we formally request testing.

In this case, retention is completely inappropriate. A dyslexic student can look really far behind in 2nd grade where the focus is on the most effected skills; verbal reading fluency, reading endurance, increasing speed in basic arithmetic, spelling, etc. Once you hit higher grades, and start focusing more on reading comprehension and mathematical thinking though the problems of dyslexia are still there, she will be able to work around them more and her stronger skills will be more useful.

I'm dyslexic, and when I was in 2nd grade, my reading was considered below grade level since it was being based on how poorly I read a page outloud to the teacher. However, when we took standardized test in 4th grade I scored at somewhere around a 7th or 8th grade reading level, and that was without the accommodation I was supposed to get (I guess b/c testing me separately without being timed would have been a nuisance for the teachers.) In 2nd grade, I was behind every one else on memorizing the times tables, and I almost always did the worst on the weekly arithmetic speed test. However, in 4th grade, I did my math with the gifted teacher, and was in the math olympiads.

Basically, 2nd grade is just about the worst grade for a dyslexic student, things will start looking up soon.

[kittie313]

Originally Posted by eepster

In this case, retention is completely inappropriate. A dyslexic student can look really far behind in 2nd grade where the focus is on the most effected skills; verbal reading fluency, reading endurance, increasing speed in basic arithmetic, spelling, etc. Once you hit higher grades, and start focusing more on reading comprehension and mathematical thinking though the problems of dyslexia are still there, she will be able to work around them more and her stronger skills will be more useful.

I'm dyslexic, and when I was in 2nd grade, my reading was considered below grade level since it was being based on how poorly I read a page outloud to the teacher. However, when we took standardized test in 4th grade I scored at somewhere around a 7th or 8th grade reading level, and that was without the accommodation I was supposed to get (I guess b/c testing me separately without being timed would have been a nuisance for the teachers.) In 2nd grade, I was behind every one else on memorizing the times tables, and I almost always did the worst on the weekly arithmetic speed test. However, in 4th grade, I did my math with the gifted teacher, and was in the math olympiads.

Basically, 2nd grade is just about the worst grade for a dyslexic student, things will start looking up soon.

Thank you for this! I was one of those profoundly gifted kids with no special needs, and a very visual learner to boot, so I have no way to relate to dd1 and her learning needs. In addition to our suspicions of dyslexia, we're thinking she has sensory issues (get her in a room with music going and after a few minutes she starts shutting down and curls up into a ball because of overload, same with textures and feeling things). She also has ADHD (trust me this IS accurate, I'm a severe ADHD that is non-functional unmedicated, we just upped my meds recently) and is just the sweetest kid. I have pics of her at 4 1/2yo holding a newborn dd4 perfectly, and giving her a bottle, because she is just that temperament. I had a TIA when she was in K and that kid rocked our world when she wasn't at ps with how she helped me.

My h says that she may not decide to go to college, but she'll be a practical adult who would make a wonderful wife and mother. I must say that I agree, although I'd still like to give her the knowledge foundation to go to college if she chooses in the future. She deserves the same chance as her sisters, even if she will have to work harder for it than they do. I think she'll be the one that ends up really caring about and valuing her education the most of my 4 because she has to work so much harder. I just wish the local ps here in my town saw it that way too, instead of just pushing her through without any extra help when we ask for it like they did. I read the information, the window of opportunity to lay the foundation for dyslexic kids closes at around 8yo, and if they don't step in before 3rd grade they lost that window.

I don't want to see her scarred by the backlash of having a little sister in a higher grade than her when they do in fact end up in our local ps, so I think that at the end of the year I'll refuse to agree to a retention unless they can give me solid proof that it is needed that isn't attached to her learning needs (and you better BELIEVE we're getting the paperwork filed ASAP for her to get services, as soon as I have all the results from testing we're getting it in, we opted to do private testing instead of having the school do it because of all the hoops and our past experience with the local school, I know with private testing that they will be unbiased and will help us find the real reasons she is struggling so much). I'm still out though on letting them skip dd2, I'm going to have to think on that more. She's already the smallest in her class because of being born early, so I don't know.

[karne]

I want to speak to what I read as your concerns, as well as hopes and expectations for your dd w/possible LD's-possible dyslexia. I have a dd w/dyslexia, and I'll echo that early elem grades, including 2nd, can be brutal. The difficulties can look almost insurmountable at this age, and you can be tempted to think that maybe college, higher education, etc. will be beyond the grasp of your child-as I think I may have read in the above post. I need to say that it's imortant to know that the page is not written this early in life. With appropriate intervention, and a long view toward goals, you may be amazed at how far your child will come. In fact, you may be amazed at the special gifts and qualities some kids w/ issues like dyslexia, add, etc. have. They aren't always on the surface, but they will "bloom" given good nurturing.

I am one to say do not retain, but advocate, advocate for the needs of your dd. Mine is in the blooming stage now, after many years of hard work on everyone's part. She has become an enthusiastic and competent learner. It will never be easy, but no one has an easy time of it in every area of life. And, I have one on the gifted spectrum as well, so I know what a delicate balancing act managing and supporting all the various needs can be.

My gift in all of this has been to learn to believe in the gifts of my children, and trust in their growth-whatever that looks like at any particular moment in time. Good luck with all of your decision making, and in the road ahead of you.

[Zoesmama]

Myself in the situation I'd probably lean more towards getting an IEP wrote up for the learning challenges. Keeping her at grade level but having clear goals may work if the k12 program can work something like that. If k12 is considered ps in the states eye they may be able to do the intervention programs and let her continue with the plans in place now, meaning k12 at home.

Hope it gets sorted easily.