Help regarding church, non-religious and a 5 year old.

[midstreammama]

Mamas, I need some help.

My brother recently joined the restoration outreach chuch. That's fine for him, I'm glad he's happy. However he now talks about it a lot.

Fast forward to last night.. My five year old daughter has really been interested in Religion and such. Asking questions and showing a willingness to visit different churches. First to a catholic church with a close friend, a Methodist church with my grandmother, and now this chuch with my brother

We are not religious at all. I am more of an earth based follower. Seasons and such.. But not quite pagan I don't think.

I don't have a problem with her going however I am a bit apprehensive to send her at such a young, impressionable age. I don't want her to go and think that this is the real truth. Unless she wants to believe that, Nd I don't think she can make that decision until she is older.

What do you think I should do?

[lovebeingamomma]

Most of what they hear and retain at church at that age is this: God loves them, love others. I wouldn't expect her to come home and explain to you theology and the doctrine of the church. I think by the time she does understand more depth, she'll probably be at the age where you find it acceptable for her to decide for herself what is truth.

[annettemarie]

As a Christian, I am trying to put myself in your shoes. If someone who practiced another faith (not another denomination, but something based on a whole different belief system), I would not want my children to attend without me either, for all the reasons you gave. I bet if your brother had a child, he wouldn't allow that child to attend a pagen ritual either. So I think you're perfectly within your rights as a parent to say no, unless you feel comfortable attending with her so you can field any questions or concerns she has after. I would use the same language I use whenever we run into parenting/belief differences-- "Well, so-and-so believes that, but in our family we believe this, so this is what we're going to do."

Good luck. That's an awkward position to be in.

[2xy]

I'm an atheist but I always allowed my kids to ask questions and think for themselves. They visited a few churches with friends and family when they were younger.

I don't know anything about the sort of church your brother has joined, but my DS2 came home absolutely freaked out from a church visit once, when he was 4-5 years old. It turned out that they were talking fire and brimstone in the preschool room. So, I would just do a lot of research on your brother's denomination before allowing your kid to go with him. I assumed that any church would focus on God's love, etc. with little kids, and I was wrong. My son had nightmares for several months and kept talking about "the fire place."

[luvmybaby333]

I've found that allowing small trips for "fun" just doesn't work. Children are far too impressionable, and the tactics of most Christian-based religions are much too aggressive for my tastes.

I just try my best to politely refuse. When pressed, I either cut contact from the religion-pushing individual, or I explain that we don't want our children to be placed in a situation where they will be exposed to intense religious pressure. Thankfully it hasn't come up much recently. People around here generally just assume that you're Christian.

Honestly, that was one of the (many) reasons we decided to homeschool, though. My oldest daughter was coming home talking about how her friends told her that people who didn't believe in Jesus were going to a place underground where a bad man burns them. She cried for HOURS because she didn't want her Nana (my deceased mother) to get burned by the bad man.

I took that opportunity to share my mother's beliefs on reincarnation. I simply told her that some people believe that way, and some people believe in Jesus and Hell. I told her that there is no way to know who was right, but we all have to choose the path that makes the most sense to us. Since that day she has been pretty solid in her beliefs on reincarnation, but she still talks about Jesus and stuff when she hears it mentioned. I just try to keep her exposure to the "pressure" at a minimum.

[EFmom]

Personally, we teach our kids what we believe (we are atheists, but are also members of a UU congregation) and why we believe it. If there is a reason to attend another religious congregation, like a wedding or a bat mitzvah, that's fine and we'd be there to explain what went on, but I wouldn't just send a young child off with a relative to church. It's too confusing, and for some religions, I don't want my kids exposed to what is espoused without it being put in context.

When kids are in high school, the UU RE class visits several local houses of religion. The kids have studied what those religions teach and how they worship beforehand. I'm good with that as they have their teacher with them.

[Arduinna]

I grew up in a non religious family, IE we had Santa and Easter bunny not Christ's birth and resurrection. My parents weren't anti religious like some, they just were apathetic I guess. My mom now says she wishes she'd taken us to church as a kid LOL. But anyway, I was always very interested in religion and went to different places of worship with different friends and my grandmother took me on occasion also. I was the kid that saved up my green stamps for a bible and actually read it. But I never joined a church, never felt like I was going to burn in hell if I didn't get baptized. I had friends and family that were Jewish, Catholic, Baptist, LDS ect. I went to Sunday school and CCD with some of my friends. I didn't know any Muslims growing up though. I found my time enjoyable, and I didn't actually convert to any religion until I was 29 and now that I'm in my 40s I've finally found where I am home.

[Arduinna]

Originally Posted by annettemarie

As a Christian, I am trying to put myself in your shoes. If someone who practiced another faith (not another denomination, but something based on a whole different belief system), I would not want my children to attend without me either, for all the reasons you gave. I bet if your brother had a child, he wouldn't allow that child to attend a pagen ritual either. So I think you're perfectly within your rights as a parent to say no, unless you feel comfortable attending with her so you can field any questions or concerns she has after. I would use the same language I use whenever we run into parenting/belief differences-- "Well, so-and-so believes that, but in our family we believe this, so this is what we're going to do."

Good luck. That's an awkward position to be in.

I agree with you, at this point now that I'm firm in my beliefs I wouldn't want my young children exposed to another religion either. But it doesn't sound like the OP is a member of any religion. Unless I'm mistaken.

[midstreammama]

Yes, not a member of any religion.

I suppose I would not be opposed to her going it just seems like at every turn something is said about Jesus dying for everyones sins and I can totally see how my five year old would latch on to that completely.(wether or not I was there with her. Like even If I said the whole that's what some people believe convo...she would still believe it was total truth, because she's so young.

I think it wouldn't be so hard to say no but she's the one that frequently asks to go to church. I really think it's because she hears family friend, brother, and great grandmother talk about it. Maybe we will visit the uu church so she van see what it's like...of all churches that seems to be the one that would feel most comfortable for me.

[chaoticzenmom]

I won't allow my children to go to any church that might teach them about sin. Lots of churches do teach young children that they must be saved...teach them about Hell and sin and put the fear into them as early as they can.

Have you looked into a UU church? Pagan temple? Find something of your own that fits in with your own principles. At our UU church, we do not introduce the concept of God to children under 3rd grade. They don't understand the symbolism. We say other stuff,such as "the great spirit of life" or "the mystery of life" and try not to even suggest "that some people call God." Until they are older.

[luvmybaby333]

I think a UU church would be a fabulous choice. My DH currently works on Sundays, but we're hoping that he can switch his off days in the future. If that happens, then we plan to start attending the closest UU church. I like the idea having the children involved in non-Christian social activities... it's just so hard to find them around here. I think going to the UU church, will solve my daughter's need to be "included". Right now, the appeal that Christianity holds for her is that all her friends have their church experiences to talk about. For most kids her age it's not really about the specific spiritual messages they get from going to church, the kids enjoy going there because they get to take part in fun activities and such. I'm hoping that a UU church will provide that for her, without the side-effect of teaching her that Christianity (or whatever organized religion) is the only spiritual path.

[accountclosed3]

i think that somewhere around 8, i would have no problem with DS going with friends and family members to different churches/religious services, because i would assume he would ask questions. if i had enough notice, i would do a bit of research about it before hand to give him a heads up about proper decorum and what to expect, and/or talk with the person with whom he would go to this service.

i think it's a good thing, actually, to be exposed to a lot of different religions to better understand and define oneself as well as others. not to 'box them in' so much as to understand diversity.

prior to that, i would likely go with him if he really wanted to go, in order to field questions as they came up. and, that would have to work for me as well, since we don't just follow DS's every whim, but need to look at what works for the family as a whole.

currently, as avid meditators, we are looking at forming a family friendly meditation group through our holistic health center. we will begin meditation with the children with us, and then they will go to another room where there will be free play time, story time, crafting time (which could also be free play time). parents will meditate for 45 minutes, then there will be some discussion for 45 minutes, and then after we'll have a snack time with everyone together again, and then out the door. sort of "church-y" i guess, but the idea is to create a community for him so he sees that other families do this too.

anyway, we are only at the infancy stage of it, so hopefully it will line up quickly.

[luvmybaby333]

Originally Posted by zoebird

i think that somewhere around 8, i would have no problem with DS going with friends and family members to different churches/religious services, because i would assume he would ask questions. if i had enough notice, i would do a bit of research about it before hand to give him a heads up about proper decorum and what to expect, and/or talk with the person with whom he would go to this service.

i think it's a good thing, actually, to be exposed to a lot of different religions to better understand and define oneself as well as others. not to 'box them in' so much as to understand diversity.

prior to that, i would likely go with him if he really wanted to go, in order to field questions as they came up. and, that would have to work for me as well, since we don't just follow DS's every whim, but need to look at what works for the family as a whole.

currently, as avid meditators, we are looking at forming a family friendly meditation group through our holistic health center. we will begin meditation with the children with us, and then they will go to another room where there will be free play time, story time, crafting time (which could also be free play time). parents will meditate for 45 minutes, then there will be some discussion for 45 minutes, and then after we'll have a snack time with everyone together again, and then out the door. sort of "church-y" i guess, but the idea is to create a community for him so he sees that other families do this too.

anyway, we are only at the infancy stage of it, so hopefully it will line up quickly.

I agree with the bolded... However, there is a difference between exposure, and what occurs within the walls of some Christian Sunday Schools. I was around that age (7-8) when my mom started allowing me to go to different churches with my friends.Our rule was that I could go anywhere I pleased, but I could not "join" any one church. I was able to visit Buddhist temples, Hindu temples, Pagan gatherings, and various Christian-based churches (Assembly of God, 7th-day Adventist, etc.) However, my mom had to put a limit to some of the Christian church visits. Never the same church more tha a couple times. This was because it didn't end up being a casual "You can come along too!" vibe... It would end up in constant invitations to various activities. Constant reminders that they were doing such & such on such & such day. Those activities invariably contained messages of conversion... and there was constantly this push to become "saved". It was hard on me. I led a very outside-of-the-norm lifestyle. There was a part of me that just wanted to fit in, and that constant pressure could have gotten to me for sure.

As a pre-teen/ young teen things got worse. The drive to find a place to belong was even stronger. We made a couple major moves, and after the last one I found myself lonely and hurting. A local church group invited me to a few of their activities. They seemed to genuinely care about welcoming me to the area and such. I was so lost, I gladly accepted their extended hands of friendship. There was definitely this pressure to become "saved", though. I tried to ignore it... but it was constant. Then one day I wandered into the Sunday School area and saw a board up. It was a contest board with all of the names of the "regular" Sunday school members. A couple of which were the people I'd considered my friends. The contest was to see how many people the kids could save. They were competing for prizes based on converting people's spirituality! I was disgusted. I'd been rebelling all along against my mother's wishes in attended that church. At that moment I'd realized that she was only looking out for my best interest from the very start. She never pushed her own beliefs on me, but she didn't want others pushing theirs either. All she wanted was for me to be able to expose myself to various spiritual ideas and decide for myself which way my heart was leading me.

In the end, my research and experiences it led me far away from the Christ-God. I don't expect the same from my children. I only wish that they are allowed to grow spiritually in the same way I was. The problem is, they are being raised in a much more Christian-saturated environment than I was. We live in rural TN, and Christianity is everywhere we turn. As such, I don't worry that by keeping them from attending church functions they are being deprived of fair exposure to that spiritual mindset. That would hardly be the case. All I am doing is preventing over-exposure... while I desperately seek some sort of balance in the form of alternate religions for them to experience and learn about.

I think that meditation group sounds fabulous, BTW! Just the sort of thing I wish we had access to around here.


OP- Where do you live, if you don't mind sharing? Are there secular alternatives in your area that could fulfill that need for gathering that many children have? I agree that your DD is probably asking because your brother is talking about it so much. That's how those things work. The idea is very appealing to children. Church sounds like loads of fun, and Jesus sounds like a fabulous guy! Of course, by all accounts he was. But he is also part of a pretty intense package. I can understand your desire to shield her from that while she is still developing her sense of self. Children at that age are highly impressionable.

[lilyka]

I think at this age she is mostly interested in the songs and the crafts and perhaps, the toys. Sunday School can be very fun for a five year old

Since you are open to your child hearing about all kinds of stuff then I wouldn't worry unless the individual church/religion has some wonky doctrines and teachings. things you specifically don't want her exposed to (and there are some crazies out there.). me personally my children do not get to explore other churches (because i think most protestant western doctrine is wonky) period. So I don't think you are at all wrong to say "ya know what honey, not right now/ever" you can easily feel the need for fun, singing, crafts, community and other sunday school stuff in other ways if that is the draw for her.

[accountclosed3]

in regards to fun crafts, songs, etc, AnnetteMarie's e-book--waldorf based--celebrates teh seasons and has lots of songs, crafts, game, and ideas. i got a peak at it (though haven't purchased it yet--silly me), and it looks really great. we are thinking of using it for our meditation group, just because seasons are accessible to all.

but, it's definitely something you can do as a family, and invite some other young children over and have a time of it similar to sunday school. like our group, you might just have a sunday morning get-together (even if once a month) to talk about whatever (parenting, spirituality, music or even do crafting), and have one parent manage the games/songs/etc for the kids, and then the rest of you discuss, and th enext time, switch.

[wombatclay]

~~~~~~~~~~~~A Moderator moment~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Heyla all! Just a quick reminder that MDC strives to be a safe space for a very diverse group. In order to keep discussions friendly, the MDC user agreement says:

We do not tolerate any type of discrimination in the discussions, including but not limited to racism, heterosexism, classism, sizeism, religious bigotry, or discrimination toward the disabled. We will not host discussions that involve explicit sexual references and are cautious about discussions on volatile topics such as abortion, religion and race. We do not host abortion debate.

I have removed several posts that were taking the thread "off topic" and I've moved the thread to Religious Studies since many posts fall outside the Spirituality forum guidelines for "support only". Please let me know (via PM) if you have any questions or concerns, and lets focus on helping the OP sort out her options! Thanks everyone, and now back to our regularly scheduled thread.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[mammal_mama]

It's children's desire for inclusion and belonging that has me thinking that we probably should get involved in something like a UU church. Dh and I are perfectly happy not going anywhere (well, I am most of the time), and our girls seem to mostly be, especially our youngest who was pretty young when we kind of dropped out (we've gone from Christian fundamentalism to universalism in the last few years).

But from time to time we hear about fun stuff going on. Like, there's a Bible club in our neighborhood where they have lots of games and crafts and so on and, according to the neighbor who told me about it, only a very short religious message.

Our older dd still has some anxieties about hell stemming from our prior involvement in fundamentalism, and 2xy is right that some churches do talk about hell even with very small children. I'd say that now she feels an occasional anxious twinge and needs some reassurance about what loving Parents are really like, whereas her anxious spells used to be a lot more frequent.

I'd hate to have her suffer another setback just because I wanted to give her some experiences that, as lilyka so aptly pointed out, can be easily-filled in other ways.

[raelize]

we have some family friends we grew up with who definatly fell under the "let's check it all out, who are we to say what's right? let the kids decide!". well, they decided. their first and last are basically agnostic, like the parents, the middle one follows a fundamentalist religion that the parents would not have chosen for her. she went to some "fun" bible study type group growing up and that's where she met up with that group.
i wouldn't expose dds to anything that i wouldn't be comfortable with them choosing.

that being said, we do occasionally (like once a year) attend my dh's church of origin (which i would not be comfortable with them joining, though he doesn't care one way or the other) for his family's celebrations (weddings, baptisms, etc) dds and i talk about how that is their religion and we are Quaker and everyone can choose what they want to be, but that we aren't that. we also discuss why we aren't that, what they believe and why we don't agree with certain teachings.

(i don't want to offend anyone by using the term "that religion" or "that", but i also don't want to offend anyone who follows that religion by naming it and sounding so against it)

[Nazsmum]

I was in your DD shoes. I was 4 yrs old and my parents let me go to different churchs and services. All I can say is if you have ONE WAY that you want her to believe then don't let her go.

If you are open to her jouney then let her take it. And just be a ear to listen to what she has learned.

I came to believe in Jesus at a very early age. He was just real to me and has stayed that way. NO ONE ever made me believe this way or that way. My parents never made me go to church or tell me to do this or that. I feel that I have a rich backround to draw from.

Children are maybe more open to things then adults. So you being the parent need to guide the way you feel is right for your family.

[alaskaberry]

Find the local UU church and go there. That's what we do (when we get up early enough to go to church!!).