Grandparent Visitation in PA

[Phoenix~Mama]

Okay, I posted this here vs Tribe areas because I figured you laides were more versed in finding legal stuff in dealing with visitation/custody rights etc.

Because it's not enough for me to battle my STBX.

He made it a point to tell me this weekend (he was in one of his acting reasonable moods) that the physical fight between his Mom and Stepdad the other week was because of him. Apparantly his Stepdad didn't want him moving back in at all and him and STBX's Mom got into an argument over it, and Stepdad beat her up.

Things are supposedly just "ducky" between them now because STBX's Mom agreed to give STBX until January to move out.

When this happens, they already assume that STBX isn't likely going to bring the kids around them very often (gee, wonder of wonders ) and are threatening STBX and myself for taking us to court to get grandparent visitation rights for one weekend a month, like they already WON with STBX's sisters' kids.

So I'm a little worried about this, as they have won this before with other grandkids. But these people are crazy. Like seriously. And the Stepdad is majorly abusive and makes my skin crawl. There is already a clause in my parenting agreement that the children are not allowed to be left alone with him EVER. And thankfully STBX backs me on this.

A reminder that these people have also not cared about STBX's kids in the past two years!!! The totally stopped all communication with DSD when we moved out of their house over two years ago because they were mad at us for moving out, so stopped talking to or seeing DSD on their own accord. Because we did invite them to her birthday parties, and they had our address, STBX even tried setting up playdates with his Mom when she had the other grandkids over, and everytime his Mom cancelled, over the course of two years!

They saw my DD twice in from the time she was born until she was 18 months old. And the one time was only because we were at the same birthday party that they were at.

Now that STBX is living there, they fawn all over her like "the greatest grandparents in the world." :vomit Where were you her whole life?! Not that it really matters because you people are freakin toxic and I hate having my DD around you to begin with!

So now I have to worry about sending my kids to them one weekend a month?! EWW!! *shudders* I HATE that PA has this clause for grandparent visitation. Perhaps some parents choose not to associate with the grandparents for VERY good reasons!

Again, the main worry is that they have already won this visitation with one set of grandkids... so yeah, I'm a little freaked.

[Super~Single~Mama]

ONE thing at a time. Get your divorce. Get Custody/visitation/child support figured out.

Grandparent rights CANNOT be fought for until your stbx moves out of his parents house. It just can't happen. Thats not until AT LEAST January now. So. Do NOT worry about this.

And, grandparent visitation is VERY hard to get. Stop worrying.

[Phoenix~Mama]

Originally Posted by thyra

ONE thing at a time. Get your divorce. Get Custody/visitation/child support figured out.

Grandparent rights CANNOT be fought for until your stbx moves out of his parents house. It just can't happen. Thats not until AT LEAST January now. So. Do NOT worry about this.

And, grandparent visitation is VERY hard to get. Stop worrying.

I have heard that it is usually very hard to get... but again... they already have it with their other two grandkids.

Can they put in a case while STBX and I are still going through ours? We may not have a settlement/agreement by the time he has to move out.

[~Charlie's~Angel~]

How do you KNOW they won a CASE against your XSIL? Were you there for the court procedings? If not, chalk it up to you getting the information third or fouth hand, and that you arent getting the WHOLE story. Perhaps the sil didnt even want to fight with them about it and just gave in.

RELAX. You dont need any more crap to worry about with the man your divorcing. Save this one for later.

[Phoenix~Mama]

Originally Posted by Barbie64g

How do you KNOW they won a CASE against your XSIL? Were you there for the court procedings? If not, chalk it up to you getting the information third or fouth hand, and that you arent getting the WHOLE story. Perhaps the sil didnt even want to fight with them about it and just gave in.

RELAX. You dont need any more crap to worry about with the man your divorcing. Save this one for later.

Because I saw the court papers once. I know ex-SIL fought hard for them not to have her kids over the weekend because of Stepdad's abuse history. She was living with them too until it got physical between her and her Mom and her Mom kept taking her kids to doctors behind her back because according to her they needed real medicine and not the homeopathic remedies SIL was giving.

They were awarded one weekend visit a month. And this has been this way for years. This isn't something new.

So no, it's not 4th hand knowledge or whatever.

[Super~Single~Mama]

They CAN file a case while you're still going through your separation. But it would get thrown out b/c they have to be completely DENIED access in to order to get it heard.

Don't worry about it. They don't have a case until they are being completely denied any and all access to your child.

[Ione]

They also need a solid, considerable & pre-existing relationship with the children to hope to win (in most states that allow GPV, probably all). Your ex-SIL LIVED WITH THEM WITH HER KIDS. Hence, the pre-existing relationship to "preserve" with GP visitation.

Seriously, do not worry about it until they actually file. If they do. If you and your ex both fight it, and they do not have a solid pre-existing relationship with your kids that should be maintained, you have very little to worry about.

Or, at the very least, not enough to worry about until (1) your divorce is final, and/or (2) they actually file.

Stop borrowing trouble from the future. There's enough in the present to worry about.

[greenemami]

Do you know WHY they were granted visitation with SIL's kids? Because from what I understand, it is nearly impossible for gparents to get visitation like that without some really compelling evidence. Is there any documentation of your ex-fil's abusiveness? Police reports, etc.? Can you prove that you have gone out of your way to include them in your kids' lives up until this point (thus proving that they do not need court enforced order to see the grandkids?).

I'm in PA too and I really would not worry about this right now. I seriously, seriously doubt that any judge will split the kids between their mom, dad, AND their grandparents!!!! It is just not done from what I understand. Is SIL's kids' dad in the picture? I would guess that they were more willing to grant visitation if the kids otherwise lived in one place all the time.

[meemee]

Originally Posted by Ione

Your ex-SIL LIVED WITH THEM WITH HER KIDS. Hence, the pre-existing relationship to "preserve" with GP visitation.

unfortunately that's what stbx is also doing. mind you less time but still. living in his parents room along with his dd.

PM - one day at a time. one day at a time. dont worry about the what ifs? just take one step at a time.

one thing i have seen. to get the best lawyer your money can buy, is the BEST thing in cases like this. a lawyer sharp enough to catch the others at their failing and be able to present your case in a clear, unemotional way.

as pp pointed out records with the police are really important. a paper trail.

i dont really have any advice but wanted to wish you teh best.

[Ione]

Originally Posted by meemee

unfortunately that's what stbx is also doing. mind you less time but still. living in his parents room along with his dd.

Not quite. He lives with them and occasionally has visitation with his DD there, in his presence. When he's not skipping visits.

They are (I assume) spending much less time with the OP's DD than with her ex-SIL's kids.

[Phoenix~Mama]

Originally Posted by greenemami

I'm in PA too and I really would not worry about this right now. I seriously, seriously doubt that any judge will split the kids between their mom, dad, AND their grandparents!!!! It is just not done from what I understand. Is SIL's kids' dad in the picture? I would guess that they were more willing to grant visitation if the kids otherwise lived in one place all the time.

Well, they found a judge who did. My neice and nephew's Dad is in the picture, so yes those kids split their time between their Mom, Dad and these gparents. Nice huh?

So while I appreciate the "don't worries" It's incredidbly hard not to have the itch in the back of my head since these people have already won "the impossible".

Now... that is a valid point about how neice and nephew actually used to live there, but I don't think they lived there that long (perhaps under a year) and in that time they were splitting their time going to their Dad's as well...

So really, it's not far off, as STBX will be living with them for at least 6 months with DD spending EOW there, thus establishing some kind of existing relationship. Ugh...

I know, I know... one day at a time... but the Stepdad seriously gives me nightmares.

And unfortunately no police reports because STBX's Mom has NEVER stood up to this guy, even all the while he abused her kids, she never did anything.

The only legal papers documenting anything is when STBX turned 12 he took his Mom and Stepdad to court to plead living with his Dad because he was tired of being abused by Stepdad, and it is in those court records of what Stepdad did to STBX.

[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by Phoenix~Mama

The only legal papers documenting anything is when STBX turned 12 he took his Mom and Stepdad to court to plead living with his Dad because he was tired of being abused by Stepdad, and it is in those court records of what Stepdad did to STBX.

Then use those documents. WHEN YOU NEED TO!!!!

6months is a long time. Not to mention - if you don't allow overnights for baking baby until after STBX moves out of his parents house they won't have grounds for visitation with new babe b/c a pre-existing relationship is NECESSARY.

Seriously - worry about this WHEN and IF they FILE paperwork. They can't for 6months. And if your stbx allows them supervised contact AT ALL during his visitation with his kids they won't have a case.

[LoveOhm]

Originally Posted by Ione

They also need a solid, considerable & pre-existing relationship with the children to hope to win (in most states that allow GPV, probably all). Your ex-SIL LIVED WITH THEM WITH HER KIDS. Hence, the pre-existing relationship to "preserve" with GP visitation.

Seriously, do not worry about it until they actually file. If they do. If you and your ex both fight it, and they do not have a solid pre-existing relationship with your kids that should be maintained, you have very little to worry about.

Or, at the very least, not enough to worry about until (1) your divorce is final, and/or (2) they actually file.

Stop borrowing trouble from the future. There's enough in the present to worry about.

: my thoughts exactly!!!

[LoveOhm]

Sorry I responded before I read your post on how the not stressing yet advice is not helpful. I do feel it's true but that is because I spent alot of hours, weeks, months stressed about my ex when it was all smoke with nothing ever coming from it. But to offer thoughts on what you are asking....

I would be careful about adding anything to your custody/visitation order now because that could be used against you --- as proof of your desire to keep them away from their grandchildren. What I would do is:

1. Honestly and openly talk to your ex & make sure you two are on the same page. Are you and your ex willing to shift his visitation? Are you willing to give some time from another area to reduce your child's time "living" at the Grandparent's home. I think staying ovedrnight there adds to their case in a huge way so I would try my best to see if ex would take mostly daytime hours until he moves. You need to do this carefully because you don't want to make him feel you are withhold the child from him just adjusting for the situation. So you may need to make some consessions time wise but that would also be something to be careful because it could set a new standard that could affect your long term custody. Bottom line though if the two of you fight GP visitation together you have a better chance of winning.

2. Document, document, document! Get all you can on the incidents of abuse and fights that have stemed from the Grandparents. If there was ever a polic report try to dig and get a copy from ex or the court. If ex told you something of note ask him to email you the details or ask him to write it down on paper and have it notarized so he does not forget the details should you two need it in court later. Also realize that ex can change his mind later (a year from now when it is an issue) so having it in writing now while he is on board is good incase he flips sides down the road.

3. Seek out ex-SIL she is most likely the best person to advise you since she has BTDT and lost. I am sure she learned alot in the process and would maybe make different decisions in hindsight.

4. Consult a lawyer in your area who is familiar with GP rights and visitation. Seek their advice.

(((HUGS))) Mama!

[meemee]

so PM i see this as you have 6 months to prepare for this confrontation.

to be honest and upfront with you - it does not look good. you ex will be there with dd (even though its not everyday but STILL it IS establishing relationship) ANd they have already won your SIL's kids. even though the document is there from when stbx was 12 it can be argued that since no new charges have been filed stepdad has changed.

so i would look upon this time as getting ready for battle to see if you even have a chance.

and i will say PM that a good lawyer, a super good lawyer is the key. the kind who truly believes in you and is a fighter. not easy to find but they are out there. many are expensive though. fortunately for my friend she found one who actually fought her case based on their individual case rather than the precedence of the state and WON.

is there anyway that your ex and you are on the same page about this. he is also there when SIL's kids are there (or is he not living there yet). how are ur inlaws behaving with them. would ur stbx or SIL share that with you? could your ex help you with documentation? has sil given in or is she still wanting to fight it? is she documenting if her kids say something? are her kids refusing to go over there but are being forced to?

can you get some legal advice now? as to how to prepare to build your case? is there an age limit when gp get their right. like 2 years old or 3?

the key though here PM is to not focus on the part that this is a lost case. yes things do look grim, but at least you can give a good fight. the focus now is trying to find ways around this - which could mean a good lawyer who sees a loophole in the law... or documentation.

[provocativa]

obviously it varies state to state, but here, it makes a difference if you willingly let your kid go with someone that's abusive- it's a sign that you don't really find them abusive. so, your sil may have lost because she willingly lived there with them, whereas you will have recorded conversations with stbx about not wanting your kids there unsupervised.

I am so sorry you have this added stress on your plate!

[greenemami]

Originally Posted by Phoenix~Mama

Well, they found a judge who did. My neice and nephew's Dad is in the picture, so yes those kids split their time between their Mom, Dad and these gparents. Nice huh?

THat is just crazy to me-how is that in the best interest of the child?!

I'm sorry you are having to deal with the crazy court system and worry about something like that. I honestly can't think of a basis that something like that woudl be granted and am pretty shocked that it was for your SIL. Splitting a kid between three homes just doesn't make any sense at all.

I would just make sure you have any documentation (even just from your ex-dh re: the abuse and his agreement that it is not healthy) and make sure that you guys are on the same page about not letting them alone together.

It seems complicated because I assume the basis of grandparent visitation is that the parents are unreasonably denying them access to the grandchildren, but then again, you can't claim abuse if you willingly let them with the grandparents! I'm so sorry this has been added to your list of worries

[Super~Single~Mama]

If you're that panicked about it, I would figure out a different approach. Like, supervised visits with dad once every 2months. Thats enough to make it so they don't have a case for grandparent visitation.

[Phoenix~Mama]

*nods*

Yeah, that's what STBX and I have in agreement now... that they are never to be alone with children, but they are allowed supervised visits with either parent (him or I)... so it's not like we are totally restricting them to see them at all. We just don't trust them alone with them. I think it's BS that a court could tell you otherwise.

[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by Phoenix~Mama

*nods*

Yeah, that's what STBX and I have in agreement now... that they are never to be alone with children, but they are allowed supervised visits with either parent (him or I)... so it's not like we are totally restricting them to see them at all. We just don't trust them alone with them. I think it's BS that a court could tell you otherwise.

Right, and since they get to *see* their grandkids, they don't have a case for grandparent rights. Since in order to be granted visitation they have to be completely denied access. COMPLETELY. So, even if your ex hung out with them and kids once every 3 months, thats not complete denial of access - no case. Right? Stop worrying, there are ways to get around this and keep your kids safe.