Adoption related-Still food obsessed - Page 5

[Polliwog]

Originally Posted by ram3113

Ok someone asked that I post info. on what my DD eats in a typical day. Here goes. But I also wish I could post a picture of her, because although she is in a low percentile for weight, she is also in a low percentile for her height and NOONE that saw her wouldn't think she was a little chubby. Her thighs are quite chubby (in a healthy toddler looking way), and she has quite the pot belly. I am not saying she is fat by any means, but she seems to me to be perfectly proportioned and seems like a typical toddler except for the huge belly.

Morning: 1/2 cup oatmeal (dry), cooks up to over a cup, and I add 1T of peanut butter with flaxseed oil. Then she will have some fruit: this morning it was half an apple.

Mid-morning: bottle of milk (4 oz?)

Lunch: (about 2 hours later) she has a rice cake with cashew butter or peanut butter, some vegetables and she ALWAYS asks for Cheerios after any meal, so I let her have about half a cup of them. Usually some more fruit, too.

Snack after nap: cup of cheerios and another 5 oz. of milk or so.

Dinner: Whatever we are having. Last night it was spaghetti and meatballs and she had a regular cereal bowl full, with 2 meatballs. She had cooked carrots for finger food afterwards because she will still ask for more no matter how much I give her in the bowl.

Bedtime bottle: 4 oz. milk.

I guess this doesn't seem like a lot of food, does it? But she is still hungry after over a cup of oatmeal/peanut butter, and half an apple? That's what I don't get.

After breakfast this morning I took a chance and went to my monthly book club (I have not been going due to her issues). I gave her extra oatmeal and fruit. But as soon as we were in the door, she started staring at the table (no food yet) and wouldn't play the whole time. This was literally 20 minutes out of the high chair.

So I gave her a mini-muffin. It is usually worse to give her a little because then she won't stop, but I tried it. 1 minute later she was asking for more. I gave her some pretzels and told her to go play. She would not leave the table, and cried until I gave her more. But more is never enough. There never reaches a point where she wants to stop and go do other things.

We left. I told them I won't be coming back.

Thanks for listening,

Anna

That really doesn't sound like all that much food to me. Through my work, I've been in probably a hundred toddler classrooms and have seen kids eat even more. When I first met my son (in his toddler classroom,) I would watch him take serving, after serving, of food. He doesn't eat nearly as much at six as he did when he was your DD's age.

[Minxie]

That does not seem like enough food to me either. My son at that age ate MUCH more than that and he has always been proportional without being fat. It is possible for children to have a distended belly when they are not getting the proper nutrients; it is a very common site in third-world countries where the children do not get enough to eat. It is common with food intolerance such as gluten intolerance but also common in diets that are high in carbs, as this one seems to be. I second the recommendation to increase the protein amounts.

I don't think she is getting enough fluids; she ought to be taking in about 16ozs (2 cups) of milk each day plus 8ozs of water. I think those are the correct numbers; it might be a bit more for the water but it does not seem as if she is taking in enough fluids. How many wet diapers does she have each day? She should have 6-8 wet, not damp, diapers a day if she is taking in enough fluids.

Have you shared her diet with your pediatrician? For reference, my son's diet when he was three occasionally looked like this:

Breakfast - 1/2 grapefruit, 1/2 cup strawberries, 1 whole English Muffin with preserves

On the drive to school - sausage, egg, and cheese on a biscuit with OJ (Dunkin Donuts)

Snack at school

Lunch - Homemade "Lunchable" (He was dying for a Lunchable "'cause that's what Bailey brings" so...) ham (about 2ozs) and cheese (about 2ozs) and some crackers
1 cup strawberries and kiwi, 1/2 cup green peppers and 1 carton of milk

Snack at school

Snack after school - Doughnut from the morning trip and milk

Dinner - about four ozs steak with 1/2 cup asparagus and mushrooms

Also he drinks about 20 ozs of water throughout the day in addition to the milk; he has his own water bottle that goes to school with him.

[Anastasiya]

Originally Posted by ram3113

Ok someone asked that I post info. on what my DD eats in a typical day. Here goes. But I also wish I could post a picture of her, because although she is in a low percentile for weight, she is also in a low percentile for her height and NOONE that saw her wouldn't think she was a little chubby. Her thighs are quite chubby (in a healthy toddler looking way), and she has quite the pot belly. I am not saying she is fat by any means, but she seems to me to be perfectly proportioned and seems like a typical toddler except for the huge belly.

Morning: 1/2 cup oatmeal (dry), cooks up to over a cup, and I add 1T of peanut butter with flaxseed oil. Then she will have some fruit: this morning it was half an apple.

Mid-morning: bottle of milk (4 oz?)

Lunch: (about 2 hours later) she has a rice cake with cashew butter or peanut butter, some vegetables and she ALWAYS asks for Cheerios after any meal, so I let her have about half a cup of them. Usually some more fruit, too.

Snack after nap: cup of cheerios and another 5 oz. of milk or so.

Dinner: Whatever we are having. Last night it was spaghetti and meatballs and she had a regular cereal bowl full, with 2 meatballs. She had cooked carrots for finger food afterwards because she will still ask for more no matter how much I give her in the bowl.

Bedtime bottle: 4 oz. milk.

I guess this doesn't seem like a lot of food, does it? But she is still hungry after over a cup of oatmeal/peanut butter, and half an apple? That's what I don't get.

It doesn't sound like enough food.

For the last four months, my almost 18 month old's meals look like this, and I am NOT exaggerating. I feel like all I do is prepare food for him.

Breakfast: one sausage patty, 1/2 cup of fruit, cheerios, a cheddar cheese stick, about 8 ritz crackers and 3 ounces of oj diluted with 3 ounces of water.

My older kids eat about an hour later than him, and when he sees their food he wants what they have too...a buckwheat pancake with butter or a croissant or buttered toast, another sausage if they are eating one, and more fruit.

Snack: pieces of meat, a 1/2 cup of black beans with sea salt, a slice of sharp cheddar cheese.

Lunch: open faced PB sandwich, steamed veggies (esp broccoli), goldfish crackers, 8 ounces of whole milk.

Snack: 1 cup of whole milk yogurt and tomatoes or fruit. Sometime later a slice of buttered bread.

Dinner: whatever we're eating as a family....and then he still has room for a dessert if we have dessert.

Feeding him is exhausting. I am just NOW seeing him start to taper off and eat less..... but wow. He EATS.

In your post, so much of her food seems non satiating....rice cakes, cheerios, pasta, oatmeal, pretzels, muffins, and fruit. Lots of carbs. Those things don't give one a "full" feeling for long. What about sausage, eggs, hummus, cheese, avocado, etc?

She needs more water. Will she take a bottle of water?

[iamleabee]

it seems to me that maybe she's food obsessed because she isn't getting enough to eat. my ds is a "picky" eater in that he doesn't like alot of variety, but he eats way more in quantity than the sample menu posted here. i agree with other posters too about switching out things like rice cakes for more filling food.

[Rivka5]

From my perspective, this meal plan is lacking in calories and especially in fat. Toddlers need something like 50% of their calories from fat. This is a pretty low-fat diet she's eating, so it probably is true that she is always hungry. Fat is what signals the body that it is satiated.

Also, you said before that she gets three meals and two snacks, but this is three meals and one meager snack (Cheerios are not very substantial). You might try entering this into a website like fitday.com to see how it translates as calories, % calories from protein & fat, etc.

Is her milk full-fat? Are you still watering it down? Does she also get milk in a cup at meals? Because 13oz of milk in a day seems like a very small amount. That's how much my same-age toddler gets in cups, AND he also nurses at least 6 times a day.

I also wonder about only giving her 4oz bottles - I think most kids who are still on a bottle at this age are drinking 8oz at a time. 4oz is more like what I'd give a young baby.

*Did* you ever try letting her eat anything she wants, all day, for enough days that she relaxes and trusts that the food will be there? I really think this is important to try. And it shouldn't be only low-calorie foods like cooked veggies, etc. - it needs to include lots of meats, cheese, avocado, full-fat undiluted milk, etc.

And, very gently, I suggest that you might want to consider looking into therapy for your own food issues. You say you've struggled with food and weight. It seems like the idea of your child being fat and/or a big eater and/or not restrained about eating is very, very frightening to you. Issues with our kids can really bring out unresolved issues in ourselves. It may be worth getting some help to look into why the idea of just letting her eat a lot of food is so upsetting.

[prettypixels]

I truly cannot imagine putting a hungry toddler on a DIET. It is freaking me out just to think about it. Please, please, feed your baby when she is hungry. Let HER decide when to stop. And please seek therapy for your issues with food. This thread has really upset me.

[Tjej]

I know you come at this through a difficult beginning for your DD, so her needs and personal understanding of them may be confused.

However, my kids have had oatmeal for breakfast forever and my DD could pack back more than that at breakfast easily at 1 1/2. Probably DS too, but I remember it being shocking to me that she kept wanting more. My kids are somewhat long and lean.

On days that we've been running around too crazy my kids may eat like you listed, but on normal days they definitely eat more (and especially did when they were under 2).

Fat is brain food. There are soo many pathways in the brain being established, and myelination NEEDS fat - nerves are insulated by fat. Guacamole and hummus are two easy and filling fatty things.

I have a friend who I feel feeds her kids like you are describing for your child. Her toddler-types have been super whiny whenever we eat with them. And then they get a tablespoon of steamed carrots. I want to take them and stuff their little bellies with cheese or meat or something so they go off satisfied and stop fussing at the food. Anyway, it isn't like my friend is neglectful or I'd bring it up with her, but it is frustrating to watch and I'm pretty sure we'd have much nicer visits if she'd just give the toddler a bunch of filling food and let them eat until they were done, and not until she thought they should be done.

I think my friend is trying to be careful with her own weight and what she eats, and she's kind of superimposed the same dietary needs as a middle-aged woman on a toddler. It just isn't the same.

Have you taught your child how to tell you "more" and "all done"? That could be really helpful.

Tjej

[D_McG]

Can you post a picture of her? You could crop the head out or other things that might make it identifiable.

I agree with the thers that it doesn't sound like enough food.

DD is 22 mos. Yesterday we were out a lot and ate a ton of junk but here we go.

Breakfast: Toast with PB and watermelon. Apple cider

2nd Breakfast (we were up at 5): 1/2 piece buttered toast and 3/4 of a huge pancake with butter and syrup at a diner. Apple Juice.

Lunch: She split a 10 piece nuggets/fries meal @ wendy's with her brother (he's 4. She eats more than him. Actually she eats more than he ever did. He lives on air, it seems).

Afternoon snack: Granola bar, rice milk (8oz? IDK). Water.

Random: Apple slices.

Dinner: pizza (just one slice. She was exhausted).

now that's way more junk than she'd typically eat but I'm trying to give you an idea of calories. I don't know her weight but she's typically about 50% weight %'ile and towards the top of the height %'ile.

I want to second, third the rec for you talking to someone maybe? It's clear your whole heart is in this but I think someone helping you frame it differently might help. Like why would you quit your book club over it? Just try again next month. Kids are funny and make things awkward. It's OK that yesterday didn't go well. Next time, give her a much bigger breakfast and never give anyone a single mini muffin. THAT is torturous

[prettypixels]

So I gave her a mini-muffin. It is usually worse to give her a little because then she won't stop, but I tried it. 1 minute later she was asking for more. I gave her some pretzels and told her to go play. She would not leave the table, and cried until I gave her more. But more is never enough. There never reaches a point where she wants to stop and go do other things.

The reason this isn't enough is because you're talking about one mini-muffin and a few pretzels, and yes, that is NOT enough. Trust your child to know her own body. Feed her. Please?

[Anastasiya]

I agree with a pp that she seems food obsessed because she's worried when she will be fed next. She needs to eat filling foods and learn to trust that the food will be there when she needs it, in the amount she needs.

[The4OfUs]

I'm crashing too, and that's about half as much food as my kids ate when they were in the 18 month-3 range. And that is a lot of starch and not a lot of fats or proteins.

Gently, mama, I think your view on food is skewed for *this* child. Your other children may have been one way, and you may have your own food/nutrition beliefs for kids based on that, but the way *this child* seems to need to be is different. My own two children were and are still very different in their food preferences and needs. DD loves meat and whole grains. DS loves fruits and starches of all kinds. Neither of them are "wrong", I just give them a balance of what the like and what they need. And kids NEED fats and protein.

Were I you, I would get her a protein source at every meal and snack. I actually shoot for a protein and fruit or veggie every time I feed my kids throughout the day - I don't worry about carbs at all because I know they're going to get enough of those throughout the day. Neither of them are overweight; DS is in about the 50th percentiles for both height and weight, and DD is in about the 90th percentile for both....both are normal for THEM. DD takes after the larger stock in the family, DS after the leaner - last year DD at 3-1/2 was as big as some of DS's Kindergarten classmates...I would never presume to try to "change" DD's type based on DS being leaner than her; I just feed her good quality, appropriately balanced foods and let her body do what it needs to do.

I think she needs way more protein and fat, and way less carbs. And don't be afraid to give her portion sizes similar to yours; up to about 2-1/2 to 3 years old both of my kids ate about as much as I did at meals, PLUS 2 solid snacks a day - DS was such a beanpole that we used to say he had a hollow leg with as much as he ate and how lean he still was. Maybe as she gets more quality calories in her, she'll move around more with more energy.

FOr some numbers for your reference:
DD was born at 7 pounds 2 ounces and 21-1/2 inches. Was 19 pounds at 4 months on breastmilk alone. Was 26 pounds at a year old (and the height of an 18-mo). Was about 33 pounds at 2 years old. She's 4 + 2 months now, 42 inches tall, and 46 pounds. She is a SOLID girl, but not chubby or remotely fat. She wears a 5T and just about keeps up with her brother's friends at school.

DS was born at 7 pounds 3 ounces and 20-1/2 inches long. Was 19 pounds at a year, and at 6-1/2 is now 52 pounds and 45-1/2 inches tall (I just measured/weighed them for ya ).

I'm really, really supporting you giving her a lot more protein and fat and a lot less carbs, and bigger portion sizes at each sitting. I know it goes against what you tihnk she should be doing, but since things have gotten worse, it seems you don't ahve a lot to lose, especially since many of us are agreeing that our own kids ate a lot more than that at that age range. Aimagine ND, then slowed down as they got to be 3 or 4-ish. DS is now ramping up sometimes again and we he's gettign ready for a growth spurt: the other night at dinner we went to IHOP and he ate his entire meal (5 silver dollar pancakes, 2 scrambled eggs and 2 slices of bacon), half of mine (2 links of sausage with gravy and a biscuit, and a few bites of hash browns), and half of his sister's (a giant pancake). And was still hungry when we got home so he had a big salad and a slice of bread.

: as you both work through this and figure it out.


Also, re: the milk. My DD has never liked milk, she won't drink it - she has tried it a few times, but takes one sip and refuses the rest. All she drinks is water. So we make sure she's getting her nutrients through food sources. So I wouldn't sweat the 10 oz of milk as being too much or too little, so long as she's getting nutrients through other means.

Also also: re: the oral input. My son is still a really oral guy, and we have "chew tubes" for him that my friend gave me. They're just silicone medical grade tubing that he can chaw on when he finds the need....and he's 6. Some kids just have that need....adults chew gum, etc. Kids just need to find appropriate inputs for themselves.

:

[pumpkingirl71]

Originally Posted by prettypixels

I truly cannot imagine putting a hungry toddler on a DIET. It is freaking me out just to think about it. Please, please, feed your baby when she is hungry. Let HER decide when to stop. And please seek therapy for your issues with food. This thread has really upset me.

I would like to respectfully point out that feeding an adopted child can be very different from feeding a typical child. I have not seen your name on this board before, so I assume that you are not familiar with the intricacies of adoption. This mother is working herself sick trying to help her daughter. The problem is not that the mom has "issues." As adoptive parents of our weaknesses are magnified by the challenges our kids face. It is not our fault and it is not their fault. But we must work through it together. Placing blame helps no one.

[Smithie]

Another thread crasher here. I am a wannabe adoptive mom, but only biokids at home so far and I've avoided posting to this thread so far because I don't have ANY experience trying to nourish a child who didn't start their life with the self-regulating, no-supervision-required diet of on-demand breastfeeding. I understand that the OP has none but the best of intentions and has nourished previous children without any problems whatsoever and will be able to do so again once this issue has been straightened out.

But. BUT. This little girl eats HALF of what my similarly-aged child eats. OP, your daughter is NOT eating too much. I really, really think that you should start talking to a a therapist who specializes in adoption, because I believe based on what you've posted that there is a mismatch between the reality of how your daughter eats and your perception of how your daughter eats.

[Rivka5]

Okay, I entered the foods you listed into fitday.com. Obviously I had to guess at some of the values (for example, how much spaghetti & how big a meatball), but here's a rough estimate:

If the milk is whole milk, undiluted, the day's intake is 1270 calories, 30% of which come from fat.

If the milk is 2%, undiluted, the day's intake is 1217 calories, 27% of which from fat.

I hope you're not still diluting her milk, but if you are, subtract about another 90 calories and some of the fat.

It's recommended that toddlers get around 1300-1400 calories a day, and 50% of their calories from fat. So the menu you posted is low in both calories and fat even in the best case scenario. And the 900 calorie a day figure you have in your head, based on what your doctor told you, is dramatically less than the average toddler needs.

[ksera05]

My second child could eat 3 bowls of oatmeal at breakfast alone at 18 months. 900 calories sounds way, way too low.

I would see a pediatric nutritionist and/or a GI. Or better yet, does your local children's hospital have an adoption clinic? They might be able to help you out even more. Pediatricians honestly are just not that educated in nutrition, at least not during med school.

[Polliwog]

Originally Posted by pumpkingirl71

I would like to respectfully point out that feeding an adopted child can be very different from feeding a typical child. I have not seen your name on this board before, so I assume that you are not familiar with the intricacies of adoption. This mother is working herself sick trying to help her daughter. The problem is not that the mom has "issues." As adoptive parents of our weaknesses are magnified by the challenges our kids face. It is not our fault and it is not their fault. But we must work through it together. Placing blame helps no one.

This is a really important point. Neglect often changes a child's brain chemistry. Sometimes in irreparable ways, often not. But using traditional thinking on an untraditional brain can be harmful. This mother has been trying to find an appropriate professional to help them out. So far, she hasn't been successful but she's still questioning and searching.

There's two different issues here. The amount of food that child's body needs and the amount of food that her mind needs in order to feel safe. Hopefully those amounts will be similar one day. But, they may not be right now. And it's not the family's fault.

[christophersmom]

I hope my posts didn't come off as harsh. I had a hard enough time weaning DD off cereal in her bottle when we got her. I do think you are trying to help her and I hope that some of advice from some posters can help.

I am going to post a link to a pic of DD's belly, you can see that she has a big belly. Sorry it is poor quality it was the best I had already taken. She has also slimmed down a lot from when we first got her, I think she was as wide as tall This pic was when she was almost 1, so already with us 6ish months. Had just been walking a month
This was not through diet though, but just her own body changing as she got older/taller.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...ts/belly-1.jpg

[texmati]

I understand that I am probably overstepping, but I can't get this thread out of my head.

Originally Posted by pumpkingirl71

Anna,

Just wanted to point out that there has been a lot of forum crashing on this thread. ....

Please don't let well meaning people let you doubt yourself. It is more than likely that your daughter does have some disordered thinking about eating. Follow your gut, but always be open to new ways to help your daughter

Originally Posted by Polliwog

This is a really important point. Neglect often changes a child's brain chemistry. Sometimes in irreparable ways, often not. But using traditional thinking on an untraditional brain can be harmful. This mother has been trying to find an appropriate professional to help them out. So far, she hasn't been successful but she's still questioning and searching.

There's two different issues here. The amount of food that child's body needs and the amount of food that her mind needs in order to feel safe. Hopefully those amounts will be similar one day. But, they may not be right now. And it's not the family's fault.

I hear what you are saying, and also wish that this mom could find good, competent specialized professional support. However, in reading, it does seem like the mom herself also has issues with her daughters weight and letting her have free access to food ie (eat how much she wants.)

I think it can only do good to look at this issue from all sides. OP mentions in her OP that the child does not have attachment issues; but does seem to want to eat constantly. It could very well be that the child is legitimately hungry.

My daughter has never thrown up after eating because I have never let her eat nonstop. I'm not sure if she would throw up or not.

Yes, it seems like she is a bottomless pit, although occasionally she will say "all done", but never when there is still food on her plate.

I am thinking about the bootcamp, but I think I'll need some valium first. Watching her eat endlessly is difficult for me because I am so afraid I am teaching her unhealthy eating habits.

1. She came home VERY CHUBBY, so clearly she allowed herself to be overfed even then

.

2. She is STILL chubby, and I feel like she would eat 10 times more than she is now. So I can pretty much assume that she will gain ALOT of weight if allowed unlimited access to food, even if it is vegetables/fruit.

4. What if she doesn't stop? What if she eats until she throws up?

I'm frightened of this scenario, and it is what has been keeping me from doing it. I wish I could hire someone to feed her for me......

To update those who asked, my daughter is kind of short for her age (30 inches) and 22.5 pounds. She has gained a pound in about a month from 18 months old to 19 months old. Doesn't this in itself indicate that she is getting enough food? I'm not sure.

Originally Posted by ram3113

Hi,
Here is something else I don't understand, and would love some feedback on: She has gained at least 2 pounds in the last 2 months. If she was still "needing" more, would she be gaining weight? I have heard from many people that their kds eat enormous amounts, but they are so active they really don't gain too quickly.

Originally Posted by WC_hapamama

I ran your DD's numbers through a growth chart percentile calculator, at at 19 months old, she's in the 16th percentile for weight and 4th for height.

Yes, I am concerned she will get an unhealthy fat. I have to be honest. I fought with my weight my whole adult life, and I know what suffering it causes to try and break the habit of eating too much. I never wanted that for my kids.

The OP seems worried about every pound the child gains; at a time when her dd needs to gain the weight. The she seems terrified that her child will eat and eat and eat. She is terrified of letting her kid eat her fill. Yet the child's stat's don't seem to indicate that she's overweight. I Isn't it possible that there is more than one dynamic at play here?

Anna, I have so much sympathy for you, and I can here the desperation coming out through your posts. I myself (not an adoptive mom) have struggled with my own food issues since my son started eating solids.
I can see how very much you want the best for your lovely daughter. I truly pray for a resolution soon. I do want to point out that healthy food attitudes look different in for different people from the outside.

[Polliwog]

I hear what you are saying and agree with a lot of it. But I'm going to assume that this mother knows the child well enough to know that there's something wrong here. That it's not just a matter of giving the child more to eat. And there could be a hundred things going on. Attachment issues are just a small piece of what can happen to a child who spends her first months in institutional care. And according to this child's measurements, she is tiny but apparently doesn't look that way in real life. My STBAD was about the same size at 19 months but she LOOKED tiny. Except for her round toddler tummy. Something is apparently different with THIS child.

[lach]

Originally Posted by Polliwog

I hear what you are saying and agree with a lot of it. But I'm going to assume that this mother knows the child well enough to know that there's something wrong here. That it's not just a matter of giving the child more to eat. And there could be a hundred things going on. Attachment issues are just a small piece of what can happen to a child who spends her first months in institutional care. And according to this child's measurements, she is tiny but apparently doesn't look that way in real life. My STBAD was about the same size at 19 months but she LOOKED tiny. Except for her round toddler tummy. Something is apparently different with THIS child.

There is something wrong here: the child is obviously very hungry, and is only being fed a small amount of mostly low-fat foods. The OP keeps saying that she's tried "everything." Everything except actually letting the DD eat until she's full. So that really can't be counted as "everything." Particularly since almost everyone replying to this thread agrees that what the DD is eating is not very much food for a child that age: less than the official calorie recommendations and far less than many of us report our children eating. We're told that no matter how much spaghetti she gets, she'll want more. But instead of giving her a 2nd bowl (and at that age, both of my children would have eaten more than one bowl and FAR more than 2 meatballs) it's just left at that. She always wants more, so she's not even given a little bit more. She wants more than 1 mini muffin, so she's taken home.

Sometimes, the solution to a problem really is the most obvious one. In this case, the problem is that the child is hungry. The obvious solution is to let her eat more. Instead, she has been put on a diet, put on restrictive dietary solutions, and taken out of situations where she is expressing her hunger.

I understand that adopted children often come with their own issues. And that may be the case here. However, based on what OP has written (and she even admits that it doesn't seem like very much food), the simple fact that the child isn't getting enough food seems like at least one of the issues. And the easiest one to solve.

I have never, ever heard of watering down milk for a child under 2 years... particularly one that is only in the 16th percentile for weight! That raises a profound red flag as to the medical advice that OP is receiving, and at the very least I think she should get a new pediatrician.