Ideas for 4.5yr old and behaviour towards younger sib?

[omelette]

Help!
I feel like all I say lately to my 4.5yr old is careful with the baby (10mos), don't pull on him, don't squish him, get off him, don't take what he's playing with, etc. He's been getting more rough with the little one. It seems like since the baby has gotten more mobile and into stuff ds1 is getting more frustrated and rough. I don't know what to do anymore. As soon as I see him get on top of the baby or pull him, or block his way when he's trying to get to something I feel an instant rage in my belly. Today I just picked ds1 up, said I've had enough of you making ds2 cry and put him in his room. This is not how I usually parent and it's not what I want to be doing but I feel so done and clueless as to what to try instead.
Suggestions? Input?
-We've tried reasoning with him and he agrees it's not ok but continues to do it (argh, I have to remind myself he's only 4)
-I've tried talking as if I'm the baby saying "I don't like it when you pull on me, please stop" "I like it when you hug me but that squeezing hurts" This was effective for a couple of days.
-I took one of his toys away one day - useless idea on my part.
-DH and I are trying to do one on one paydates with him.
-DH and him are doing roughhousing time to try and get some of the energy out and to teach boundaries, when enough is enough etc.
-We're trying to balance all the no's regarding the little one with lots of positives.
-I've tried saying: It looks like you want to play with the baby lets do _____ with him.

I need help b/c I feel like my sweet boy is becoming a frustrated little guy.

[beebalmmama]

I don't have a whole lot of advice, but just wanted to let you know that you're not alone. Our ds has just turned 5 and the little one is 8.5 months. So yes things have gotten a bit rough around here once the little one started cruising.
We've been doing a lot of what you have tried and have little success as well. We also have a whole lot of other behavior stuff going on with ds1, but I won't go into that here.

What I have tried lately is to try to be more compassionate to what ds1 might be feeling. Feelings of jealousy towards ds2, frustration at not having as much of dh and I's attention, anger that ds2 is playing with "his stuff".

If he is not outright really hurting ds2, then I've been moving the baby away and give him something to occupy him and then turn my attention to ds1. I try to be understanding and say things like "I can see your really angry that the baby is touching your things. I know you don't want to share it so can you try moving it to where baby can't reach it?" or "How about you call for me or daddy to come move ds when he's getting your stuff.". I've also tried telling him that he can distract baby with another toy (which he has somewhat attempted, he just gets kind of aggressive about it, ie dumping a bunch of soft blocks on ds2's head.

If he is very clearly being dangerous or really hurting ds2, then I give ds2 my attention and pick him up and cuddle him. And then after that I firmly reinforce and talk to ds1 about the things we do not do, like hurting other people.

Today ds1 was trying to carry ds2 around. I've let him move him very short distances by picking him up under the arms. But this morning he was trying to carry him all around the room and ds2 was obviously very upset. I tried telling ds1 to stop and be careful of ds2's tummy (he's been a spitter and this often helps ds1 understand). But he wasn't listening and ignoring me although he had put him down but was rolling him around. So I started talking to ds2 and said "Hey little guy you be careful about tumbling around this morning because you spit up so much last night and you just finished having a nursie...." This got ds1's attention and he asked who I was talking to and I told him I was talking to the baby. It seemed to help this time....

It's tough I know. I feel like we've also been sending a lot of negative remarks and energy towards ds1. I think trying to be more positive towards the older sibling is a good strategy and we're trying that too. I really have to catch myself to not automatically react when the baby is crying/frustrated, it's tough though.

[beebalmmama]

Spam!!

[nina_yyc]

Going through this with my DD, 3.5. I do the timeouts too, which is not the ideal for gentle parenting, but I think it is warranted by the situation and have made my peace with it. My rationale is that if you cannot play safely with others, you need to play by yourself. That is how I explain it to DD as well. Depending on the situation I will sometimes have her sit by me or choose where she wants to play (anywhere where DS isn't.)

The problem is for me is being really consistent and on top of it. DS is OK and will not cry with some things that I am definitely not OK with (i.e. DD carrying him) so I do not catch her every time. I really feel like I need to spend some focussed playing time with both of them, showing her how to play with him and calling her out on things that are offside. I have finally stopped the intentional aggression towards the baby so I've gotten a bit lazy with addressing the more innocent (but still dangerous) rough play. I have tried to get her to put herself in the baby's shoes and empathize with him but it's in one ear and out the other. Maybe I am doing something wrong?

I'm also trying to feel out some good, clear ground rules for toys/posessions. So far I have said that if a toy is out in a common area, the baby has a right to play with it - it's DD's fault for leaving it out. If DS is in her room touching her stuff and it bugs her, I will remove him. I also try to remind her if he's into her stuff that she isn't using X and that she can have X back whe he's done, and sometimes she will agree to those terms and share nicely. I have a feeling though that this is only going to get more complicated from here and would love to hear advice from those of you who have btdt!

ETA: I've had a bit of success with showing DD how to trade toys with DS when they want to play with the same thing. Cuts down on the crying but probably going to have to renegotiate this one down the road when DS is less easily distracted.

[omelette]

Originally Posted by nina_yyc

The problem is for me is being really consistent and on top of it. DS is OK and will not cry with some things that I am definitely not OK with (i.e. DD carrying him) so I do not catch her every time. I really feel like I need to spend some focussed playing time with both of them, showing her how to play with him and calling her out on things that are offside. I have finally stopped the intentional aggression towards the baby so I've gotten a bit lazy with addressing the more innocent (but still dangerous) rough play. I have tried to get her to put herself in the baby's shoes and empathize with him but it's in one ear and out the other. Maybe I am doing something wrong?

I'm finding consistency hard too b/c if I'm super consistent then I would be ontop of ds1 all the time. But b/c I want some positives in there and to give him a break I don't always say something.
I like the idea of showing them how to play together. I try to make suggestions of something they could do and ds1 always says no, but I know if I get down on the ground and start doing the activity with ds2 then ds1 would join in. I will have to try this more often until ds1 maybe has a better understanding of appropriate play.

It was interesting, yesterday my friend (who puts up with no bull) was over to play with the kids while I had a break and she called ds1 on everything I normally would and his reaction to her was so great. He listened so well and was able to explain why what he was doing wasn't appropriate, etc; whereas with me he would either cry, try and explain his way out of it or throw something. Must just be having a new person doing it and I'm guessing by now my voice is full of frustration when I speak to him in regards to his behaviour towards his brother.

Postivity is key as the pp said. When I can pull off staying positive it makes a world of difference it's just so hard when it's the same thing over and over and you're exhausted.

[busymama77]

We haven't gotten there just yet, but imagine we will once DS#2 becomes more mobile. But in the meantime, to keep our 4.5yo DS busy, DH takes him on bike rides, plays sports outside, roughhousing before bedtime (playing swords, football, etc.,) while DS#2 is alseep (sound sleeper). He and I do art projects together, snuggle on the couch, etc., When DS#2 is fussing in his exersaucer or bouncy seat, I encourage DS#1 to make his little bro laugh and he loves doing that. I think a lot of re-direction has to come in to play at some point.
But like I said, once DS#2 becomes mobile and wants what DS#1 has, I'll be singing a different tune, I'm sure.

[friskykitty]

Instead of saying don't do............... try giving him the behavior you want. Such as:
use a gentle touch
share with the baby
give hugs and kisses


Or better yet, an incompatible behavior- So if child is constantly touching things you don't want them to touch, tell them to put their hands in pockets.

[nina_yyc]

Originally Posted by omelette

It was interesting, yesterday my friend (who puts up with no bull) was over to play with the kids while I had a break and she called ds1 on everything I normally would and his reaction to her was so great. He listened so well and was able to explain why what he was doing wasn't appropriate, etc; whereas with me he would either cry, try and explain his way out of it or throw something. Must just be having a new person doing it and I'm guessing by now my voice is full of frustration when I speak to him in regards to his behaviour towards his brother.

Can you post some examples of exactly what he did and what she said? I need some inspiration.

[omelette]

Originally Posted by nina_yyc

Can you post some examples of exactly what he did and what she said? I need some inspiration.

Interestingly enough if was pretty close to what I say - the same type of language, but coming from someone else in a different tone and it got a total different result.

A few things I remember her saying:
- That really looks like it's hurting ______ (babe's name), what do you think?
- I heard you yelling at us but your mom and I were talking that's why we didn't respond, how could you get our attention in a different way?
- It doesn't look like he really likes that.

And she did use redirection, a few times when he was getting on the little one she would ask him to come show her something or get something for her. Redirection - something I need to work on.

[nina_yyc]

Yup, that is pretty close to what I say too.

[nina_yyc]

I guess I should mention that I am trying to get past the power struggles and attention seeking behavior with DD but it is a process. I know that the way I disciplined her in the past is a factor in her behavior but it is taking me a looooong time to dig myself out of that hole. I'm not saying that's a factor for you but I know the ultimate answer for me is to get into a better place with DD...it's just hard to get there when I am looking out for DS too and trying to run a home and stay sane

[ElliesMomma]

my DD is almost 4.5 yo and DS is 11 mo. i *do* let her carry him *from behind, her arms under his armpits) as long as it's not up or down stairs, she doesn't put him on a couch or chair, and as long as it's short distances and he doesn't scream. the minute he starts making a negative noise, -- should i say the second he starts -- she is supposed to stop whatever she's doing and see what's making him upset. it's usually that he's being carried away from something he's interested in, or once in awhile, she will be "hugging" him (ie, looks like tackling him, but in a soft way) -- and he doesn't like feeling crushed. these things we get on her for right away. it's NOT ok to make her brother cry.

lately we've had some power struggles between the two. while they actually play pretty well together (mostly) unsupervised (i.e, i'm in the kitchen listening while i cook and they're in the living room playing together); sometimes lately she will want a toy that he has, and it's only because he has it. this is another case where we tend to get on her to share.

i do a lot of "try to work it out in a way that makes baby happy" and leave it up to her to figure something out. sometimes it works, usually not, but i like giving her a chance to do some crative thinking and problem solving. if the problem is unsolvable and the squabble continues over, say, a certain toy car, i can always remove the item from play, or i can state that baby gets it for a minute until he drops it and you know he will, then you can have it. try and get him interested in something else (i will tell her).

it is exhausting as a parent, that this kind of stuff goes on all.day.long.

but this is a short phase, and someday soon they will be old enough to not only play together but to work out their differences and be friends.

positive thinking!

[clickclackmoo]

DD1 is 4.5 and DD2 is 1.5, so it's not exactly the same situation, but we've been working on this for a while now and have a variety of approaches that seem to be going pretty well on the whole. There was a point at which DD2 was less little and less of a baby, and that was actually hugely helpful because she no longer needed me to interfere on her behalf as much.

I try to talk to DD1 regularly about the pros and cons of being a big sister. A little understanding (something I never got as an older DD) seems to go a long way. Especially in a situation where DD1 is getting frustrated.

'Work it out, you two.' Nevermind that DD2 is 1.5 and has no idea how to work it out. The point is that I am not blaming any one person for whatever is going on (provided no one is getting hurt) and that both of them have a role to play. I guess I really like this one because as an older DD myself, I was always expected to 'act my age', ie fix everything for everyone. If I didn't, the conflict was blamed on me.

I try to facilitate the 'work it out, you two!' DD1 is emotionally intense and tends to freak out over conflict. We've developed the idea of a 'tool box' of techniques she can use. We discuss which might work best. Tools include:

* substitute another toy for the one DD2 has that DD1 wants.
* wait without making a huge fuss, thus reducing DD2's natural tendency to hang on to the desired object
* play together with desired object (happens rarely, but I always suggest and try to demonstrate when I can figure it out)
* ask DD2 calmly and politely to hand over the toy. It actually works a lot of the time!
* DD1 can go play somewhere on her own if she's feeling invaded/ stressed out by DD2. She chooses this one a lot with no prompting. Sometimes she asks for the 'pig pen', the baby enclosure set up in the living room, shutting DD2 out. DD2 was ok with this when little but gets upset now she's older.

It took a long time to convince her that grabbing was not ok and that they both had to be ok with the outcome.

Now that DD2 is that much bigger, I try to walk away from screeching fights. I know that I tend to interfere when I shouldn't and come down on one side or the other. If no one's life is in danger, it either sorts itself out or one of them comes to me and I 'help' with sympathy or suggestions about which tool to use.

I try to walk away from fun too. I once heard riotous laughter, and walked into the room to find DD1 lying on top of DD2. I almost had a heart attack. I don't remember if I stopped them or not, but generally, it seems to work better to keep an eye on fun without being too close to it so that I don't spoil it.

I guess we've had more problems with loud, alarming shouting from DD1 than rough physical treatment, but either way if it gets to that, I try to take DD1 out of the situation long enough to calm down and figure out another way (or calm down and forget about it). Sometimes that means taking DD2 away from the situation. Whichever works.

DD1 gets DD2's nap time as her special time. And if we're all playing or working happily together, then I point out how well it's going and what is working.

This makes us sound as if it's all smiles all the time (not really), but I guess what I'm saying is, if you keep doing what you're doing, he will get better at dealing with his little brother. Little brother will get bigger too! Developing a point of view that doesn't place blame, even when big brother is clearly not coping in a smart way, will go a long way towards helping him be willing to try new things and be more considerate of his little brother. Again, that's the experience of someone who hated her little sis. Good luck!