My known donor wants to know... and intro

[mysticpi]

I am delurking myself after years of reading and sporadically posting here. Finally circumstances and timing are such that my partner and I are going to try to concieve using my body. I am so so excited! ...and terrified that it wont work and that it will work, both at the same time.

My partner and I have recently approached a friend of ours about becoming our donor and he and his partner are into it and excited about it! It's such a wonderful feeling

So, onto my question: I was talking to our prospective donor last night and he had some questions about how other donors have broached the subject with their own extended families. He is worried about how his parents might react and wants to make sure that they don't think the baby is their grandchild. He would prefer not to even tell them about it but they'll end up finding out (my donor's child will know and will probably mention it to them at some point), so it's a question about how to present this information to them. We talked about writing up our legal agreements very clearly to indicate that my partner and I would be the parents and that him and/or his relatives would under no circumstances be legaly responsible for the child.

I was wondering how those of you with known donors (and your donors themselves) have approached this situation, and also whether anyone knows of any sites, message boars etc. about/by known donors?

Thank you!

[sunwillshine]

Welcome, and congrats on being ready to create your family! It sounds like you are giving everything a lot of attention and thought, which is super important, IMO.

We also used a known donor. The "KD's parents" issue has been a touchy subject. KD and his partner are of the ilk that KD's "job" is done now... he admits that when he thinks about me pregnant (I'm due early October) he doesn't even really think that he had anything to do with it. He basically just felt that he wanted to help out some good friends, and that's that.

HOWEVER, before he donated to us, he did talk to his parents about it, who expressed that "it's weird" (his dad) and "I would really be very sad to know there's a grandchild who doesn't have me in his/her life, nor would I have him/her in mine" (his mother). (Side note: I have never met them, but they know who I am, and knew that it was me that KD was referring to re: his plans to donate). KD was looking for their support in his decision to donate to us, saying that he knew it was the right thing for him to do because of the way they raised him, etc... but when he didn't get their support, he sort of just left it as "well, I'm going to do what I'm going to do, and I guess we shouldn't talk about it anymore."

And he didn't.

Fast forward to now.

KD is one of my best friends, and we are Facebook friends. His mom is also on Facebook. I had my profile pic set to private, so even when I commented or wrote on his wall, they couldn't see my pic. Well, damn Facebook changed the privacy settings (you can't have a private profile pic anymore), and KD's mom saw my profile pic the other day, which shows me round and pregnant. She apparently immediately called him, upset and expressing how depressed this made her, yadda yadda yadda...

KD basically told her that they should not talk about it, and should drop it, that it was his decision, etc.

So, now we are just holding tight and laying low until the baby is born, till he waives his parental rights, and till the second parent adoption of baby by my DP goes through. There likely isn't much his parents "could" do, even if they wanted to, but there is always the "what ifs" that float around in our head were something to happen to KD and if his parents would be wacky enough to come after us for rights to the kiddo. This is not likely to happen, but I admit it's a teeny tiny itty bitty concern. We are planning to put the adoption processes in place ASAP after birth (we have to wait 72 hours after the birth to file the paperwork and request a hearing date in our state).

We do have in our KD agreement that neither he nor his parents will have any rights/responsibilities to the child, but the plain fact is that KD agreements are not legally binding documents, and can only serve as evidence of intent if presented during a legal battle. The only truly durable protection in most states would be a court-ordered judgment of parentage or adoption. I'm not saying it's not a good idea to have a KD agreement, just that you can't count on it to protect your family should an issue arise. I DO think it's a really important document to have, because it makes all parties involved really reflect upon and consider what's being agreed to; it's a big decision, and shouldn't be entered into without a ton of thought and careful attention.

This probably didn't help you AT ALL, but I did want to share my experience.

Best of luck to you!!!

[indigoscot]

hello, how exciting that you are beginning your journey to be parents!! lyndzies has some really good insight. we had planned to use a kd but changed our minds when we found out he and his wife were experiencing unexplained infertility - we didn't want to be pg with his child when his wife could not (as a side note the just adopted a little boy from ethiopia).

my advice would be to be 100% sure that your kd does not intend to be part of your child's life as a parent or that his parents will see your child as a grandbaby and that you have the appropriate paperwork in place for him to relinquish parental rights and that you do a second parent adoption (if your state will allow it). as lyndzies pointed out, a donor agreement isn't worth the paper it's written on in a court of law - parental rights can't be waived based on that.

as the mum of 2 boys (one i carried and one dp carried) nothing prepares you for the overwhelming love you feel when your child is born. i honestly can't imagine how a kd could not want to be involved in his child's life, especially if he is going to see the child regularly or see photos on facebook. even my cousin's ex-bf - she calls him ddl (daddy do little) honors his visitation rights every week and he is basically nothing but a sperm donor - they had been dating for a few months and had already broken up when she found out she was pg. since your kd already has a child that could make things even more tricky. hopefully that won't be the case but these are things you should be aware of.

lyndzies, i'm so sorry you're having this stress at the end of your pregnancy. i hope commonsense will prevail and you'll get all your legal stuff taken care of quickly after your sweet baby girl is born.

g

[gumshoegirl007]

Welcome to the boards, mysticpi.

We had a similar conversation when negotiating relationships with our KD and what role his parents would want. The role we’ve decided upon for our KD is a hybrid role – he’s more than a donor, but not a parent. I think in this conversation it was important to distinguish between responsibilities/legal roles versus the relationships we wanted to build.

As we already have two children via public adoption (it was supposed to be closed, but is now somewhat open, and the kids have different fathers and different sets of grandparents), we were really concerned about having yet another set of grandparents to incorporate into our family’s life. This is further complicated by the distance which separates us all – DW’s parents are 8 hours away, her GP’s are 9 hours away in another direction, and, my parents and grandparents are 5 hours from us in yet another entirely different direction. At best, we see each other 2 to 3 times a year/family as is. For us, the pure logistics of even entertaining another grandparent relationship was logistically overwhelming.

This was even further complicated by the fact that we’re merging two cultures together. While my DW and I can mostly identify our culture as Canadian, our donor’s family immigrated to Canada when he was a child. In his culture, grandparents are actually responsible for raising the child and that was definitely not the relationship that the three of us were envisioning.

He was really nervous telling his parents’ he was going to be a donor as he wasn’t sure how they would react. This was yet another unconventional decision he was making. He was sure his mother would be upset. Very upset. It turns out that they both really understood. They both respected his decision to donate and understood that this wouldn’t be their grandchild, in particular in the traditional sense.

They did understand that our KD, as per our agreement, did have visitation rights. And, via his visitations, they would have access to meet the child and develop a relationship with him/her. We’re not responsible for establishing or maintaining their access, and we agreed that they could see the child no more often than our parents were able to. His parent’s basically wanted to know why he was considering donating, wanted to let him know that as a gay man he could have children of his own (either with a future male partner or they’d be happy to arrange a marriage to a nice girl and he could be gay on the side), and what we were (ie, race). Other than that, they were surprisingly zen about it all.

One of the books that we loved, and we gave to our KD as well, was And Baby Makes More: Known Donors, Queer Parents, & Our Unexpected Families. Really good food for thought.

[mysticpi]

Thank you so much guys for all the information and ideas you have shared. It is a little scary to have those unknown factors that are not entirely in our control.

I'm in Nova Scotia, and my understanding is that both my partner and I will be able to be in the baby's birth certificate from the start, so that is a relief. Also, it doesn't seem likely that in Canada, at this point, a court would discriminate against lesbian parents to the point of giving custody to the donor's parents, but of course things could change change, rights be taken away, etc.

So much to think about, and talk about!

many hugs to you Lyndzies, that sounds really quite stressful.

[sunwillshine]

I hope you come to a decision that works well for your family!

And, thanks for the thoughts, mysticpi and indigo. It's really not as stressful as it may sound... it's just one of those things where I'll be super happy and relieved when the adoption is all over and done with, to have even the tiniest smidgen of uncertainty behind us. Right now I'm having no trouble at all enjoying my last weeks of pregnancy and looking forward to our little girl's birthday!

But yeah... when using a KD, there is ALWAYS going to be at least a grain of uncertainty. The fact of the matter is, like indigo pointed out, you really never know how the donor is going to feel once the child is born... regardless of his best intentions and forethought. Using a KD was the right decision for us, but it's definitely not for everyone, for a bunch of reasons (including the one about grandparents that you raised, here).

[gumshoegirl007]

Just check the laws in Nova Scotia.

In Ontario, if you have an unknown donor, both your name and your partner's name can be on the birth certificate at the time of birth.

If you use a known donor, however, it must be the names of the biological father and biological mother (then you have to have the KD give up rights and do a second parent adoption). This is what we have to do.

The neat thing is that the law now recognizes that if you were the birth mom, but you used your partner's egg and a known donor, that all three of your names could be on the birth certificate.

Ultimately, the courts will decide in favour of the biological parents should an issue come up. So, if your adoption isn't complete and your KD dies, his parents' could theoretically challenge you in the courts for guardianship of the children. However, as the birth parent the court will likely find in your favour over the grandparents.

[mysticpi]

gumshoe, I definitely need to check on the nitty gritty of the legislation, thank you for pointing that out. I know there has been some changes in the law here that have allowed two moms to be on the birth certificate at birth (there was a case publiziced in the media) but I don't actually know all the specifics.

[Forthwith]

mysticpi, nice to see another Nova Scotian!

When my son was born, my wife (non-bio mom) went on the birth certificate with me automatically. We used an anonymous donor, though. It might be different with a known donor.

Then again, it might not - iirc, in a heterosexual marriage, a baby is legally the child of the husband, whether he sired the baby or not. If the change in legislation was based on that law, it might not matter if you use a known donor, as long as you and the non-bio mom are married.

[lexbeach]

We didn't use a KD (though I wish we could have), but of our friends who did, the majority do have contact with the donor's parents, and it is a largely positive thing.

I think that when your baby is first born, it can feel important to draw a tight boundary around your family, especially when your family is a non-traditional family where both parents are not genetically (or legally, initially) linked to the baby. I know that I felt that way in the beginning. I would not have wanted a donor or his parents to be involved. But as the years have gone by, my opinion about this issue has drastically changed. At this point (my oldest kids are 7.5 years old), I really feel like the more people who love my children, the better. If our donor's parents wanted to have a relationship with my kids, I would welcome it (honestly, I would be thrilled!).

I also put myself in the shoes of the donor's parents . . . imagining what it would be like if one of my kids grows up to be a sperm donor . . . I would definitely be upset if I couldn't have a relationship with the child(ren) who would be my biological grandchild(ren).

More love is more love.



Lex

[carmen358]

Originally Posted by gumshoegirl007

Just check the laws in Nova Scotia.

In Ontario, if you have an unknown donor, both your name and your partner's name can be on the birth certificate at the time of birth.

If you use a known donor, however, it must be the names of the biological father and biological mother (then you have to have the KD give up rights and do a second parent adoption). This is what we have to do.

I'm in BC and we used a KD and my partner and I are both on DD's birth certificate. We are still planning the adoption...just haven't gotten around to it yet!

[mysticpi]

Carmen, if you and your partner are both on the birth certificate, how is it that you still need to adopt? All the legalities are getting me so confused!

Kelmendi, it is exciting to see another Nova Scotian! Where are you in NS? I'm near Windsor and about 1 hr from Halifax.

Lex, I like your "more love is more love". It is still early in our conversations with our donor and we have a lot to discuss and think with him and his partner, but from what we have talked about our donor does not want to be involved in a parental role, and my partner and I prefer it this way as well. However, we would likely be (already kind of are) more like extended family to eachother, which to me feels lovely and right.

[Forthwith]

Originally Posted by mysticpi

Kelmendi, it is exciting to see another Nova Scotian! Where are you in NS? I'm near Windsor and about 1 hr from Halifax.

I'm in Dartmouth!

[FarmerFemme]

Originally Posted by lexbeach

We didn't use a KD (though I wish we could have), but of our friends who did, the majority do have contact with the donor's parents, and it is a largely positive thing.

I think that when your baby is first born, it can feel important to draw a tight boundary around your family, especially when your family is a non-traditional family where both parents are not genetically (or legally, initially) linked to the baby. I know that I felt that way in the beginning. I would not have wanted a donor or his parents to be involved. But as the years have gone by, my opinion about this issue has drastically changed. At this point (my oldest kids are 7.5 years old), I really feel like the more people who love my children, the better. If our donor's parents wanted to have a relationship with my kids, I would welcome it (honestly, I would be thrilled!).

I also put myself in the shoes of the donor's parents . . . imagining what it would be like if one of my kids grows up to be a sperm donor . . . I would definitely be upset if I couldn't have a relationship with the child(ren) who would be my biological grandchild(ren).

More love is more love.



Lex

I'm with Lex. In the beginning I was very defensive with the boundaries, but now that my DD is here, it's hard to deny her the incredible love that is pouring out of these people that are related to her, do know her, and want a relationship with her. It's one of the things I love about having a KD. His mother sends DD gifts often and got a FB account so that she could see pictures of her often. I'm completely fine with that. We wrote a clause into our donor agreement that goes beyond his relinquishment of parental rights and said that no one could act on his behalf, including family, to persue any legal standing with DD or a relationship we are not comfortable with. I can dig out the specific wording if anyone wants it.

At the end of the day, I trust my KD. And I trust his family. My daughter came into the world in an untraditional family perhaps, but one with far more people concerned for her health, happiness, and well being than most.

It's so true: more love IS more love. If there was anything but love there, we would reevaluate, just like you would do with any relationship.

And Congrats!!

[painefaria]

Originally Posted by lexbeach

More love is more love.



Lex

I am with Lex. My situation is much different than most here. I am not saying that it is always the easiest but it is working for us. DS has us as primary parents,(obviously) he see's his dad and his wife regularly (she watches him 3 out of 5 mornings a week) and knows their son as his brother. We visit KD's family in Long Island and when they come to PA we make an attempt to spend time with them. It is nice that DS has so many people to love him. Now, KD signed to terminate parental rights and DP adopted him along time ago but if something happened to us KD and wife would be guardians so to keep the family together. Is it easy all the time? well not even close . Is it nice to have people around you to back you up in hard times? you better believe it.

[mysticpi]

Originally Posted by Kelmendi

I'm in Dartmouth!

awesome!

[mysticpi]

Originally Posted by FarmerFemme

We wrote a clause into our donor agreement that goes beyond his relinquishment of parental rights and said that no one could act on his behalf, including family, to persue any legal standing with DD or a relationship we are not comfortable with. I can dig out the specific wording if anyone wants it.

At the end of the day, I trust my KD. And I trust his family. My daughter came into the world in an untraditional family perhaps, but one with far more people concerned for her health, happiness, and well being than most.

It's so true: more love IS more love. If there was anything but love there, we would reevaluate, just like you would do with any relationship.

And Congrats!!

FarmerFemme, I would LOVE it if you'd share the wording you used (I'd be interested in looking at as much of your contract you are comfortable with shareing)

I agree about the importance of trust. I totally trust my KD, but I don't know his parents, and he doesn't seem to really trust them... therein lies the difficulty....

[FarmerFemme]

Donor Contract

I have to give disclaimer that this is the second agreement I had with KD. We had one before I got pregnant, made nearly 2 1/2 years before that included the names of our partners. For a variety of reasons, we decided to make a new contract once I was pregnant that was only between the two of us. Hence the already knocked up language.


Donor Agreement


SPERM DONOR AGREEMENT
This agreement is made this third day of March, 2010 by and between Sarah X and Timothy X who may be collectively referred to herein as the Parties.

NOW, THEREFORE, in consideration of the promises of each other, DONOR and RECIPIENT agree as follows:

1. Each clause of this AGREEMENT is separate and divisible from the others, and, should a court refuse to enforce one or more clauses of this AGREEMENT, the others are still valid and in full force.

2. Each Party acknowledges and agrees that, through the procedure of alternative insemination with the use of DONOR's semen, RECIPIENT Sarah X became pregnant. DONOR Timothy X agreed to provide his semen to RECIPIENT for the purpose of alternative insemination, as follows. DONOR intended as far as was reasonably practical for him, to provide his semen to RECIPIENT until such time as RECIPIENT conceived.

3. DONOR represents that he has been tested for STDs and tested negative, and that he has engaged in “safer sex” activities and refrained from sharing needles.

4. RECIPIENT intends to be the legal parent of the child born of this procedure.

5. Each Party acknowledges and agrees that DONOR provided his semen for the purpose of said alternative insemination, and RECIPIENT accepted it for said purpose with the clear understanding that DONOR agrees that he would not demand, request, or compel any guardianship, custody, or visitation rights with any child born from the alternative insemination procedure. Further, DONOR acknowledges that he fully understands that he will have no paternal rights whatsoever with said child and that he will not have the legal rights that are traditionally vested in the biological father of a child.

6. RECIPIENT further agrees to indemnify DONOR and hold him harmless for any child support payments demanded of him by any other person or entity, public or private, including any district attorney’s office or other state or county agency, regardless of the circumstances of said demand.

7. Each Party acknowledges and agrees that RECIPIENT, through this AGREEMENT, has relinquished and released any and all rights that she might otherwise have to hold DONOR legally, financially, or emotionally responsible for any child that results from the alternative insemination procedure. DONOR acknowledges that RECIPIENT shall hold full parenting responsibility of any child so conceived.

8. Each Party acknowledges and agrees that the sole authority to name any child resulting from the alternative insemination procedure shall rest with RECIPIENT.

9. Each Party acknowledges and agrees that there shall be no father named on the birth certificate of any child born from the alternative insemination procedure.

10. Each Party covenants and agrees that, in light of the expectations of each Party, as stated above, RECIPIENT shall have absolute authority and power to appoint a guardian for her child, and that the mother and guardian may act with sole discretion as to all legal, financial, medical, emotional needs of said child without any involvement with or demands of authority from DONOR. DONOR agreed to provide his semen for purposes of this insemination, with the intent that any child conceived thereby be raised by RECIPIENT. DONOR and RECIPIENT both specifically consent to such a proceeding, and DONOR and RECIPIENT both agree to execute any documents necessary to facilitate any such legal proceeding.

11. RECIPIENT has informed DONOR of her intent to name alternate guardians should she be unable to parent. DONOR specifically waives any right to object to the appointment of individuals chosen as guardian by RECIPIENT.

12. Each party covenants and agrees that none of them will identify the DONOR as the parent of the child as DONOR has relinquished all paternity rights. However, no party shall be restricted from disclosing the DONOR was the donor for the insemination procedure which resulted in the birth of said child.

13. Despite the relinquishment of all legal rights by DONOR and RECIPIENT, the Parties have agreed that it is in the best interests of the child that the DONOR'S identity be disclosed to the child and that any future contact DONOR may have with any child that result from the alternative insemination procedure in no way alters the effect of this agreement. Any such contact will be at the sole discretion of the RECIPIENT and will be consistent with the intent of all parties as detailed in this agreement. The parties agree and acknowledge that if the child express a desire to meet the DONOR, and the RECIPIENT agree that to do so would be in the best interests of the child, DONOR will be receptive to such contact. The parties agree that any contact or friendship with DONOR by any such child shall not constitute a parental or familial relationship for any purpose. DONOR agrees to keep RECIPIENT updated with his current address and other contact information.

14. Each Party acknowledges and agrees that the relinquishment of all rights, as stated above, is final and irrevocable. DONOR further understands that this waiver shall prohibit any action on his part for custody, guardianship, or visitation in future situations, including the event of RECIPIENT's disability or death.

15. RECIPIENT agrees that DONOR may disclose to his parents and family the existence of nature of his biological relationship to any child born to RECIPIENT under this AGREEMENT, with the full understanding that these parents and family will not be the legal relatives of the child, as well understanding that the DONOR is not the father of the child. DONOR expressly agrees that he will not assist or support his parents or family in any proceeding, whether legal or otherwise, to obtain rights of custody or visitation with regard to such child. DONOR expressly agrees that he will make clear to his parents and family that they cannot demand or compel any guardianship, custody, or visitation rights with any child resulting from the alternative insemination procedure. Any contact between such child and the DONOR’s parents or family will be the sole discretion of the RECIPIENT.

16. Each Party agrees to attempt to resolve any disagreements or disputes that might arise under this AGREEMENT amicably, in the spirit of the intent expressed in this AGREEMENT, and in a way that best serves the interest of the child. If the Parties cannot resolve such disagreements or disputes among themselves, each party agrees to seek counseling and/or mediation and participate in a good faith effort to resolve their differences.
17. Each Party acknowledges and understands that there are legal questions raised by the issues involved in this AGREEMENT which have not been settled by statute or by prior court decisions. Notwithstanding the knowledge that certain of the clauses stated herein may not be enforced in a court of law, the Parties choose to enter into this AGREEMENT and clarify their intent that existed at the time the alternative insemination procedure was implemented by them.

18. Each Party acknowledges and agrees that she or he signed this AGREEMENT voluntarily and freely, of his or her own choice, without any duress of any kind whatsoever. It is further acknowledged that each Party understands the meaning and significance of each provision of this AGREEMENT.

19. Each Party acknowledges and agrees that all questions as to the performance, interpretation, validity and legal effect of this AGREEMENT shall be determined by the laws of the State of Idaho.

20. Each Party acknowledges and agrees that any changes in the terms and conditions of this AGREEMENT shall be made in writing and signed by both Parties.

21. This AGREEMENT contains the entire understanding of the Parties. There are no promises, understandings, agreements or representations between the Parties other than those expressly stated in this AGREEMENT.

The Parties hereunto have executed this AGREEMENT, consisting of three (3) typewritten pages, in the City of Boise, Idaho, on the day and year first above written.

____________________________
Timothy X
DONOR

_____________________________
Sarah X
RECIPIENT

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[mysticpi]

Thank you farmerfemme!!

[citygirl144]

These are really interesting comments! When we first starting negotiating with our KD we were very uncomfortable with his parents having any involvement. Our KD is close with them and had to tell them, and they were sad that they wouldn't get to be grandparents. As time has gone by (my DP is now 15 wks preg), and before we started inseminating, we had a change of heart. They live on the other side of the country and don't like to fly, and we were clear with them that they would have no role like our own parents, but we were open to them knowing the kids, sharing photos, maybe occasional visits etc. It felt much, much better. Just as we have chosen a KD in part because we think our kids might want to know him and have him in their lives in a friend/uncle type role, we think the same applies for their biological grandparents. I do admit that there is part of me that is still really resistant to the idea that they are our kids bio grandparents. but that is the reality. and once we started to embrace it instead of resisting it, and keep telling ourselves the "more love the better" mantra, it is good. There is still a lot of navigate, of course. Good luck in making all these decisions...and remember that it all seems to change over time!