Nourishing Traditions Vs. The China Study? - Page 2

[Sayward]

Originally Posted by karika

I was jut skimming this thread and those two things popped out at me. I tend to believe this article about B12 that I recently read

http://www.naturalnews.com/029531_vi...B12_vegan.html

When I first heard of the supposed deficiency and where other plant eating mammals get their B12 from, I concluded it only makes sense that humans would get it the same way, from bacteria in our gut....

I'm a veg*n and have no problem saying that this 'article' is simply not based on science. It is TOTALLY irresponsible to encourage people to become vegan by lying to them. B12 deficiency is nothing to mess around with, especially in a pregnancy/parenting community.

I firmly believe that a vegan diet is optimal, and I am a scientist (biologist). There's nothing wrong with the fact that vegans should supplement with B12 - everyone is supplementing with something! It doesn't invalidate veganism.

I don't want to argue, but for anyone else reading this PLEASE do your research - if you do you'll see that EVERY reputable source recommends vegans include some sort of B12 - either from fortified foods or by supplement - and the scientific literature backs them up.

[Purple Sage]

Originally Posted by karika

Some people have said they feel a constant hunger when eating a more vegetarian diet. The evidence is in to say that is a good thing. Longer life, better health and brain function are a side effect of a lifestyle that includes fasting or restricted caloric intake.

http://www.naturalnews.com/029565_ca...on_health.html

This would only apply, though, if the hunger is accompanied by a lower intake of calories. As a vegan (not the entire time I was vegan, but towards the end) I was hungry all the time and eating all the time. I was definitely not restricting calories - and certainly not to CRON levels. You'd be surprised at how many calories of beans, grains, nuts, vegetables, etc. I could eat and still be hungry.

Interestingly, in most of the studies on low carb diets that I've read about, the participants naturally reduce the number of calories they eat (as compared to what they were eating prior to the diet). That's why you hear so frequently that low carb diets work because they're really low calorie diets in disguise. The interesting thing is that the reason people on low carb diets eat fewer calories is because they aren't as hungry.

I guess what I'm saying is that CRON might be a good thing (and it might not - everyone seems to agree that more research is needed), but hunger is not necessarily a good indicator of calorie restriction.

[Otto]

Originally Posted by Sayward

I'm a veg*n and have no problem saying that this 'article' is simply not based on science. It is TOTALLY irresponsible to encourage people to become vegan by lying to them.

This. The following sentence should be enough to set off alarm bells: "According to Dr. Vivian V. Vetrano, vitamin B12 actually comes from coenzymes, which are already present in bacteria found on the human body (in and around the mouth, for example)." Vetrano is a chiropractor with an unfortunate habit of being around when people drop dead of extreme fasts (William Carlton and three others [e.g., 722 F.2d 203], Dennis McDaniel [W.D. Texas, No. SA-06-CA-920-H]).

[Chicharronita]

Originally Posted by Purple Sage

This would only apply, though, if the hunger is accompanied by a lower intake of calories. As a vegan (not the entire time I was vegan, but towards the end) I was hungry all the time and eating all the time. I was definitely not restricting calories - and certainly not to CRON levels. You'd be surprised at how many calories of beans, grains, nuts, vegetables, etc. I could eat and still be hungry.

Yep. I've bt and dt, and I wasn't even vegetarian! Was trying to be, but didn't make it.

Interestingly, in most of the studies on low carb diets that I've read about, the participants naturally reduce the number of calories they eat (as compared to what they were eating prior to the diet). That's why you hear so frequently that low carb diets work because they're really low calorie diets in disguise. The interesting thing is that the reason people on low carb diets eat fewer calories is because they aren't as hungry.

I've found that to be true.

Finally, for the first time in my life, I'm not obsessed about food. I eat two or three meals, and that's it.

I don't think about food, fantasize about food, wish for food, look at food porn....you get the picture.

Building meals around fat and protein is extremely satiating and satisfying.

[ChristaN]

Just to provide the perspective of a vegan who isn't perpetually hungry, I have been vegan for 22 yrs including through two pregnancies and four years of nursing. I was never unduly hungry and am mom to a nearly 12 y/o and my little one who will be 10 in a month. Yikes, they're getting old on me!

[Chicharronita]

Chris Masterjohn just posted an interesting (and long!) look at other, lesser-known rat studies that Dr. C authored or co-authored, and finds that a lot of them contradict or at least call into question the ones that he used in his book:

The Curious Case of Campbell's Rats -- Does Protein Deficiency Prevent Cancer?

This is quite technical, and I'm still digesting all the information. It appears that in some of his early studies, Campbell found that rats fed a low-protein diet suffered from a lot of problems.

In one of the studies he quotes in his book, rats were given aflatoxin every day for six months, and then either given a diet containing 5% protein or 20%.

Although the study went on for 2 years, they had to stop giving aflatoxin after six months to the 5% group because half of them had died.

However, ALL of the 20% protein diet rats were still alive at that point.

The 20% rats went on to develop liver cancer or pre-cancerous changes to the liver, but the 5% protein diet rats who were still alive didn't, and this fact is used to tout the "benefits" of a low-protein diet.

I think this just proves the old adage that "what doesn't kill you only makes you stronger."

In a review Campbell co-authored called "The Effect of Quantity and Quality of Dietary Protein on Drug Metabolism" which looked at the effects of pesticides and other environmental toxins on a low-protein diet, toxicity to 3 compounds decreased, but toxicity to 18 other compounds were increased.

The early studies show that the low-protein diet rats ate less food, failed to grow, and weren't able to efficiently detox aflatoxin and other toxins. They developed fatty liver, their internal organs stopped developing, and they tended to die at an early age. Yow!