why is it so hard...

[mama24-7]

to bring this up to others? i find myself procrastinating on bringing the subject up w/ those who think they have a decision to make. i figure i can't be the only one who has experienced this difficulty. please share freely.

thanks,
sus

[brant31]

Because no one wants to sound preachy or step on anyone's toes. Even though, in reality, many people are appreciative of information presented in the spirit of helpfulness. It is a question of nuance and practice. It would be too easy if every reaction we got was positive! We learn from our rejections, and circumcision can be a touchy issue, one that people don't necessarily send out vibes about beforehand.

I had just about the most appalling experience anyone could have with this, but after time I got back in the saddle again and decided the wins were worth the occasional devastating loss. You can't lose sight of the kids you're helping, not just the parents.

[Ophelia]

It is extremely difficult, at least for me because I am introverted and do NOT like confrontation, which is almost what it feels like (in a way, I am confronting parents-to-be about their beliefs). For example to talk to my cousin about it, I had to plan it all out in my head and had the printouts ready. My heart was going a mile a minute, I had butterflies in my stomach, and I was sweating nervous. I have a hard time remembering what to say and think on the spot as it is, and being nervous makes it worse. She sat with her arms crossed the whole time and I'm sure everything went in one ear and out the other (also discussed other things, like BF. Yes, she had a boy, he is circ'd ).

If someone is pg and I feel I need to talk to them, I have to gather up all the courage I have and then I have to try and catch them at a time when they won't be around other people which is also difficult (usually at parties and get-togethers). And yes, I procrastinate about it.

I try to make it matter-of-fact as possible, like what the foreskin is there for, how painful it is for the baby if they cut it off, etc.

[Pirogi]

I've had both experiences. With my sister, it was easier. I prefaced it with, "Feel free to tell me to STHU, but ..." I just told her what I knew, and offered to send her more information and links. I did, and she decided not to circ her first child, a son.

I've had two other times where it didn't feel right to push the issue. Once was at a party with moms and dads and kids, and the issue of circ came up sort of non-chalantly, in passing, and I realized everyone in the discussion had circumcised. I said nothing during the discussion, because there was circ fervor in the group. There was one pregnant woman there with her first child, a boy, so I found her later by herself and told her that circumcision really isn't necessary. She said that they had decided they were going to do it "for the health benefits." We are not good friends, and she did not leave any room for further discussion, so I dropped it.

The second time was with my nanny. She is also pregnant with her first child, a boy, and she actually asked me about it first. Her question seemed a bit searching, like she hoped I would say that I do/will circumcise, and that would make it ok for her too. I told her I would never circumcise a baby, that my DH is intact, and that even if he wasn't, I would never do that to my child. Then, since she had opened the subject, I asked her, and she said they were going to do it as "part of their religion." She attends a large non-denominational christian church, but anyways. I left it at that, because she had invoked the bullet-proof religious clause, and also because technically she is my employee. I feel she is misguided, but I don't want to push the issue, especially when she is still caring for my daughter. I did order the "What your doctor may not tell you about circumcision" book, and I plan to leave it lying around at my house when it arrives.

It's hard. I am not a very social person (maybe high-functioning ASD?), and it's hard for me to guage other people's reactions sometimes. I have been burned too many times with non-circ related issues where I just didn't get it, and stepped over some boundary that I didn't see beforehand. I feel like I do have a very heightened sense of empathy though, and I just don't want to do any more harm than good for the cause.

[Galatea]

I feel you! I actually do it in the course of my business. I do cloth diaper information sessions, and someone ALWAYS asks if they can use vaseline for the circ wound on their diapers. It used to make me crazy - I would literally turn red and get faint for a few seconds - they cared about the diapers but not about the baby's penis!!! Now I take a deep breath and say, "I am very against circumcision for a number of reasons," and then I do a quick run-down of the dropping rates, the locker room myth, the cleanliness myth, and the human rights argument. It usually goes over well.

For personal discussions with friends or acquaintances, well, I just bring it up. It gets easier every time, I promise. I just say something like, "Have you thought about circumcision?" and then follow their cues.

The thing that helped me get over it was seeing that it does work - I have had many friends and customers tell me that my info prevented them from circing their babies. It works! It's worth the temporary embarrassment.

[Galatea]

Originally Posted by Pirogi

IThen, since she had opened the subject, I asked her, and she said they were going to do it as "part of their religion." She attends a large non-denominational christian church, but anyways. I left it at that, because she had invoked the bullet-proof religious clause, and also because technically she is my employee.

Uh, it's not - have you quoted Scripture for her?

[Galatea]

Originally Posted by brant31

I had just about the most appalling experience anyone could have with this,

What happened?

[brant31]

Well, in a nutshell: about 13 years ago things were going extremely well for me professionally and on the intactivist front. I felt very fulfilled to have had a recent big promotion to VP and lots of opportunities to be interviewed for intactivism in print, radio and even TV. I was also volunteering a lot at health fairs and doing much more than intactivism. Very satisfying.

One day I shared with an expecting coworker that I volunteered as an intactivist -- no discussion whatsoever -- and both she and my employer went berserk. I was summarily fired ("at will" employment, no contract or union) and spent years looking for work. I know it sounds pretty unbelievable, but a number of folks here on the forum know me and can vouch it's true. It destroyed my life. But as I said, you eventually get back in the saddle again and continue as best you can.

Incidentally, she took over my department (added it to hers), and much later I found out I was the 3rd guy she'd successfully filed sexual harassment charges against in 5 years. She became one of the youngest SVPs (32) in company history.

[mama24-7]

Originally Posted by brant31

Well, in a nutshell: about 13 years ago things were going extremely well for me professionally and on the intactivist front. I felt very fulfilled to have had a recent big promotion to VP and lots of opportunities to be interviewed for intactivism in print, radio and even TV. I was also volunteering a lot at health fairs and doing much more than intactivism. Very satisfying.

One day I shared with an expecting coworker that I volunteered as an intactivist -- no discussion whatsoever -- and both she and my employer went berserk. I was summarily fired ("at will" employment, no contract or union) and spent years looking for work. I know it sounds pretty unbelievable, but a number of folks here on the forum know me and can vouch it's true. It destroyed my life. But as I said, you eventually get back in the saddle again and continue as best you can.

Incidentally, she took over my department (added it to hers), and much later I found out I was the 3rd guy she'd successfully filed sexual harassment charges against in 5 years. She became one of the youngest SVPs (32) in company history.

that's worse than anything i could have imagined. i'm glad you're still w/ us.

sus

[eepster]

There are a number of reasons this subject is hard to broach.

1. It involves penises, and polite people don't talk about penises. Really polite people don't even think about penises. That's why there are fig leaves.
2. Some body may actually have a circumcised penis, and polite people never ever suggest there might be something not 100% perfect about someone else's penis. Every man should be allowed to think his penis is perfect.
3. A mom might have circumcised a baby she had previously. One doesn't wish to imply she did something wrong.
4. Culture and religion are involved (we won't actually discuss those,) and everyone knows those are private subjects that shouldn't be discussed.
5. Circ involves sexual function, babies don't have sex. No-one wants to think about babies and sex at the same time.
6. Who wants to get into icky medical talk. It just isn't dinner table conversation.
7. The mom to be is just so sick of hearing about this thing at the hospital and that thing at the hospital, why are you adding this to the stress.
8. If you talk the mom into going against her husband you're just going to upset the marriage. This is the one thing that he cares about, why pester her about it.

There are real reasons that this subject is hard to bring up. It is there fore important to think about what is a good in to this subject for you. You need to find a good excuse to bring it up. Think of something that makes it more comfortable for you.

My way of bringing it up has been to talk about the way the Dr tried to pressure me into it at the hospital, or the way that everyone kept saying that DS's tongue tie surgery wouldn't be as bad as his circ had been.

Whether you agree with the reasons that the subject is hard to broach or not, they exist for most people in the US, so you need to find your way of managing them.

[eepster]

Originally Posted by brant31

Incidentally, she took over my department (added it to hers), and much later I found out I was the 3rd guy she'd successfully filed sexual harassment charges against in 5 years. She became one of the youngest SVPs (32) in company history.

It sounds like she would have found something anyway. If it wasn't this, you'd have done something else (I'm assuming you're just human like the rest of us and not perfect.) One day you would have forgotten you weren't alone in the room and adjusted your package, or you'd have brushed against her, or something.

One of the frustrations of sexual harassment is that the difference between a guy who accidentally brushes against one while passing by and the guy who makes a sport out of it is very very subjective. As a woman who has experienced both I can certainly tell the difference, but explaining it in words is almost impossible. At the end of the day, it comes down to who you choose to trust.

[brant31]

I'm definitely not suggesting that many s.h. claims aren't legitimate. All one has to do is watch Mad Men to see what women have had to suffer in the workplace just on gender. But her approach was novel... she argued to HR that my volunteer cause was prurient and instantly made her worried for the baby she was carrying, as "extremists" can't be trusted. (I emphasize I never discussed the topic with her, ever.) Because both penises and pregnancy involve sex, just the fact of mentioning intactivism was inherently sexual. Oddly enough, the way it came up had nothing to do with intactivism per se... it was because I had been on a PBS-aired show about it and told some coworkers. She inquired what the show was about; I said "intactivism" -- a new word coined just that year by my friend Ricky. She asked someone else what that was, and HR had me out of there with lightning speed. (A curious aside: the HR investigator, a woman about 20 years older than me, told me that that the intactivist position was "un-American" and disgusting.)

[brant31]

Originally Posted by mama24-7

[Why is it so hard]... to bring this up to others? i find myself procrastinating on bringing the subject up w/ those who think they have a decision to make. i figure i can't be the only one who has experienced this difficulty. please share freely.

It is hard because it is not natural. North Americans are practically the only people on Earth in such a weird position, because our crazy health care system (present and past) has incentivized normal people to do something arguably not normal to children -- actually, just one gender of children.

Change should not have to come from verbal persuasion; it should come from recalibrating the economics of circumcision to help people find their compass on their own. No country has every successfully extricated itself from a history of circumcision through word-of-mouth. I'm not suggesting we stop, but it is a ridiculously slow and awkward way to achieve social change. We need the subsidies to stop and our medical professionals to show ethical leadership.

[Galatea]

Originally Posted by eepster

It sounds like she would have found something anyway. If it wasn't this, you'd have done something else (I'm assuming you're just human like the rest of us and not perfect.) One day you would have forgotten you weren't alone in the room and adjusted your package, or you'd have brushed against her, or something.

Yeah, I agree. But that is still terrible and traumatic!

[jenP]

Originally Posted by eepster

It is there fore important to think about what is a good in to this subject for you. You need to find a good excuse to bring it up. Think of something that makes it more comfortable for you.

Ah, that is the hard part!! I see pregnant women all around, and I can't even feel happy and joyful like I wish I could at seeing babies on the way to their happily expectant families. All I can think is, the poor baby is most likely going to have a horrific procedure done within its first few days of life. So when I see pregnant women, I get this panic attack and feeling of great sadness, and an urge to try to talk to them about circumcision, but without knowing how to actually have them listen.
Plus really, by the time you see a very visibly pregnant woman, it is too late. The plans are made and conversation with a stranger is not likely to make a difference (except to strengthen their conviction that circumcising is the right thing to do!) It's really better to educate young people who are years away from having babies, and to try to change the medical institution and insurance situation.
So going for overall change of the structure would be most effective, but what to do when there is a baby on the way and his parents are actively planning to violate his human rights and do him great harm and great pain shortly after birth? It's hard to not to want to try to save every individual, on an individual basis. But it is even harder to find a way to try to intervene on behalf of that baby that would actually have any positive effect!
Any tips on how you can find that "in" or that excuse to bring it up, in a friendly non-confrontational way, even if you don't know the person well??
Maybe just wearing a t-shirt around is the way?

[jenP]

Brant, thank you for sticking with the cause even after that awful experience!
I agree with PP's, they were looking for an excuse anyway. Something similar happened to my husband recently. A coworker goaded him and goaded him at the company picnic until he finally made some sarcastically mean remarks to her (nothing threatening, no bad words, nothing sexual at all) and *bam* - outta there. "Pattern of Harassment" they said. (not sexual harassment, just harassment.) It was an at-will situation too, so it is somewhat mystifying why, when employment is at-will, they felt a need to trump up a reason. Why not just say, "we don't like you so get lost"? After all the law is on their side. It clearly stated when he was hired that, as an at-will employee, he could be fired (or quit) anytime for any reason or no reason at all. I figure they just had to come up with some BS reason so his manager could have an excuse to his boss as to why he just got rid of their most productive and skilled employee.

At any rate, simply mentioning the word "intactivist" is about as much sexual harassment as showing up at work visibly pregnant. Remember the bad old days when women actually were fired for "showing"? (Because after all it is a visible sign that they had sex.) I thought we had evolved past that point.

Jen

[Pirogi]

Originally Posted by Galatea

Uh, it's not - have you quoted Scripture for her?

Um, no, I have not quoted scripture for her. I agree with you, I know that according to the new testament of the bible, circumcision is nothing. However, any employer quoting scripture to an employee would be inappropriate (except maybe a pastor ). If she were just a friend, then perhaps. Also, being part of a minority religion myself, I do not delve into other people's religious beliefs. She can attend a church that actively campaigns against circumcision (wouldn't that be nice?) and still hold different personal religious beliefs on the subject.

I guess that is just my comfort level.

[PlainandTall]

Jen- I just had a baby- and I wish I'd been able to do some activism while pregnant - that didn't work out because I didn't GET out... but the activist maternity T I wanted to design said, "Relax" (like the old 80's T's) and underneath- as if handwritten- "no one is going to get circumcised" I totally understand your dread feeling upon seeing a pregnant woman- and it's so sad to feel that when when we should feel joy!

I don't have trouble talking about it but I do feel very nervous/rush of adrenaline when speaking about it with a person close to me because of my concern that how it goes/ what they say may change the nature of our relationship. When I talk to people I know I generally keep the dialog to my own experience as a woman/wife/mother/activist and tell my own story. I try to ask the other person questions and let them tell their perspective/story.

Also- I'd like to say that I have worked at info booths and sidewalk protests- and THAT is much EASIER than talking to your first cousin... seriously! It's actually very relaxing to be in public and identify yourself as a person who supports genital integrity right off the bat- then you never have to break the ice or bring up the subject- every person who comes in contact with you is already aware of your opinion ... you will also be amazed at how different REAL people are talking about this than the internet. I think the people who would be "flame warriors" will for the most part avoid you all together... beyond that- if you are compassionate - (for me at least) many people will share their story and ask questions regardless if they circumcised in the past - people open up. I always learn a lot.

[jenP]

Originally Posted by PlainandTall

Jen- I just had a baby- and I wish I'd been able to do some activism while pregnant - that didn't work out because I didn't GET out... but the activist maternity T I wanted to design said, "Relax" (like the old 80's T's) and underneath- as if handwritten- "no one is going to get circumcised" I totally understand your dread feeling upon seeing a pregnant woman- and it's so sad to feel that when when we should feel joy!

I love your t-shirt idea!
And I'm glad I'm not alone in feeling that way on seeing pregnant women. Thank you for understanding.

[LiLStar]

I find it easiest to talk to moms of girls about it (or those who don't yet have children). And if they're pregnant, know its a girl. It makes for very nonthreatening conversation, because there's no way what I'm saying could come across as criticizing their actions, or if they're pregnant with a girl, it can't be taken as me trying to railroad them into doing what I want them to. It makes the conversation not personal to them, so they have no chance to feel defenseless or for the conversation to get emotional. Thinking about all the conversations with moms who have *girls only* (and may have a boy one day!) they have all gone well! Even the conversation that started "if I had a boy, I would definitely circumcise!" ended with "okay, you have me convinced!"