"Fair" number of hours for DP to work?

[rparker]

General question:

I'm curious... what do you consider to be a fair or reasonable number of hours (averaged per week) for a spouse/partner to WOH if money is not an issue? Does the number change based on the ages of the children at home and/or their school status? At what point does the other parent's work schedule become a burden on the SAHP?

Details of my specific situation:

My husband currently works an average of 50 hours per week (technically 100 hours every other week and 0 hours on alternating weeks). He wants to increase this by 26 hours to an average of 63 hours per week (126 hours every other week). After October we will have two children who are three years apart in age. Both are/will be home schooled (the local schools are not an option).

I'm really not ok with this. He wants me to "try it" on a trial basis for one year. My instinct is to refuse, but I worry that I'm being unreasonable. He worked an average of 70-80 hours per week for years before we had children and changed employers when our daughter was 9 months old specifically so he could work fewer hours, so to a certain extent I feel that we've already "been there, done that." FWIW, this increase in hours is not necessary for career advancement or job security; it is totally voluntary.

The other issue is that we live in an area where there are very few children and most of them are in daycare or school. There are almost no resources for either SAHPs, babies/toddlers, or home schoolers. So basically, I already feel very isolated. We moved here from an area with more resources specifically so he could work less and spend more time with our daughter(s).

What would you do? Suck it up and agree to the one year trial period? Agree to it with the stipulation that you were able to hire outside help with housework and/or childcare? (I'm not sure if I'm even ok with the idea of paid childcare, maybe a sitter, probably definitely not a daycare center.) Hold your ground and continue to protest an increase in hours?

I appreciate any and all feedback on this, so thanks in advance. (I might not be able to reply to this thread for a few days because my two year old killed my laptop and I'm waiting for a new computer to arrive.)

[lookatreestar]

i dunno my dh works 75hrs + and it is hard. i adore my kids and they really are pretty easy going. but yeah it is very lonely, esp that first 6 months for me after you have a new baby, so newborn plus toddler. it was just very hard. luckily my mom is somewhat close and my MIL lived with us for a bit. but it isn't the same as having dh home and involved in the daily routine. anyway. fwiw it works for us right now, but it is tiring for all parties involved!

[rightkindofme]

A few questions:
When you say that these hours are voluntary, will he see an increase in pay?
Why does it have to be for a full year? That seems... rather extreme.
When you say you don't need the money do you mean that you have an independent income or just that at his current hours you are doing fine.
It sounds like he is on one week/off the next--how helpful is he during his off weeks?
You say that the extra hours aren't for job advancement/security... is this kind of a dead end job? How in the world would that big of a jump in hours not affect how his job feels about him?
Is he completely gone on the weeks he work? If he is completely gone, how would the change in hours affect you anyway?

All of those things potentially change how I would respond.

[Marsupialmom]

I think you need to ask your husband why he wants to do this. Your view of no need might not be his view.

Also, what is "fair" how fair is it for any parent to be away from their child. Is it fair that a military member is separated? A nurse working 12 hour shift? Fireperson day on day off?

Rhetorically speaking why is it you perceive it is fair that he works at all and you don't?

I think you need to realize there is no "fair" solution. Your way (want) might not be anymore right than his way (want). No on way be fair to anyone.

I honestly do not think this is an issue about how many hours your husband works, but more a validation of your feelings, needs, and wants.

[Honey693]

DH typically works 40-45. He can hit 50-60 for a week or so before I get really cranky and ask when he's going to go back to 40. I understand that sometimes he'll have to work crazy hours, but I tend to put my foot down after a month.

[BetsyS]

My dh has an hour commute each way, then works about 50 hours a week (6:30-4:30 or so). He is gone from home about 60 hours a week.

I don't know. For us, this seems fine, and pretty average amongst my circle of friends. I have friends with dhs that work many more hours. My dh made a commitment when #3 was born to get off on time the vast majority of the time, and he's done that (2 months so far--a good record for him). But, to make up that time, he goes in earlier (which only affects us because he is ready for bed around 9pm ).

I also think that the luxury of having a week off every other week is a pretty darn good perk, no matter how many hours you work in the off week to make that happen. I'd enjoy that immensely if dh had that sort of schedule.

edited to add: I have a newborn, 2 year old,a nd 4 year old. My parents are an hour away, and I see them once a week, but it's mostly social time for me. They would help in a pinch, and sometimes my mom babysits for doctor's appts, but they aren't providing daily daycare or anything. No preschool/mothers' morning out/etc. It's mostly me and my boys.

[Jenne]

Hmmm. I guess I might have different questions that other posters. I would try to see things from his perspective because you are already very familiar with your own feelings. Lots of men (not to say there aren't women who feel this way too!) tie there identity strongly to their employment. "Being a good provider" might mean something different to him then it does to you. What does it mean to him? You said this increase isn't for promotion or security is this your perspective or his? Many bosses would want to see "dedicated, hardwork" for a year or more before considering someone for a raise or uptick on the ladder. (Having no idea what your DH does I'm just trying to come up with questions for your to discuss with him or to consider his perspective but I could be way off base.) Have a number of people been laid off at your DH's place of employment and although his job is safe he is having to take on the work of 2 or 3 positions? Is he able to do his job to *his* satisifcation in 40-50 hours per week? Why does he want to work more? Why does he think it is important? He has already shown that being home is important so has there been a change? Is he nervous about #2? Is this typical of what happened prior to #1 being born? Does this fit with his idea of how "men" behave?

I wish you all the best. I hope that y'all are able to have a real talk about what is going on.

Jenne

[rparker]

Update

I am tentatively agreeing to do this for a year (probably starting in January) with the understanding that he will switch to a different position or find a different employer if I'm unhappy with the way it turns out. I appreciate the feedback though and will attempt to answer some questions

Originally Posted by rightkindofme

A few questions:
When you say that these hours are voluntary, will he see an increase in pay?

His salary will most likely increase, but it may do that anyway since the median salary for his position has increased and that's the amount his employer has indicated they will pay. He will technically be making less per hour though even though his net income will increase. (Hope that made sense.)

Why does it have to be for a full year? That seems... rather extreme.

It is pretty extreme but probably necessary since his schedule greatly impacts the schedule of one other employee (i.e. the one who would work the alternating weeks) directly and several others indirectly.

When you say you don't need the money do you mean that you have an independent income or just that at his current hours you are doing fine.

We're doing fine at his current hours. We would be doing fine if he saw a decrease in pay even.

It sounds like he is on one week/off the next--how helpful is he during his off weeks?

Probably as helpful as a lot of men who work 40 hour weeks, definitely more helpful than my father He does a fair amount of cooking, childcare, yard work, and some laundry.

You say that the extra hours aren't for job advancement/security... is this kind of a dead end job? How in the world would that big of a jump in hours not affect how his job feels about him?

He's a physician and he chooses to do primary care in an extremely rural setting, both of which are in really high demand. There might be opportunities for advancement if he were working in a more competitive university hospital setting (doing research, publishing, teaching, etc.), but he's pretty much at the highest salary/benefit level possible for the kind of work he wants to do. His job is completely secure as long as he maintains his board certification and doesn't commit any acts of gross negligence. Even if he were fired from this job (which is extremely unlikely) there are a lot of others he could pick and choose from. His employer has an extremely difficult time recruiting doctors and they are currently understaffed.

Is he completely gone on the weeks he work? If he is completely gone, how would the change in hours affect you anyway?

Currently he stays at the hospital Thursday 7 a.m. - Monday 9-11 a.m. (ish) and then is home for 10 days. There is some flexibility in this though and he often works 2 "weekends" in a row (tough) and then has even more time off (good for travel). He and one other doctor make their own schedule, so if either has a vacation planned the schedule gets kind of funky.

His new schedule would require him to be at the hospital Sunday 7 a.m. - Monday 5 p.m., Tuesday 7 a.m.- Wednesday 5 p.m., Thursday 7 a.m. - Friday 5 p.m., Saturday 7 a.m.- Sunday 7 a.m.

The hospital is only 5 miles from our house so I can take our daughter to visit him briefly if he has any downtime between patients, but he can't leave.

The biggest impact the change in schedule would/will have on us is that he won't be able to leave the town we live in for more than seven days at a time because the scheduling is so rigid and there is no paid/unpaid vacation, just the alternate weeks not working. This is an issue only because where we live is very remote and it takes several days to travel to/from any major US city (or airport).

[JudiAU]

The details really make the situation more clear. I don't really think that "fair" comes into it. He may simply feel it needs to happen and I understand why there is a long term commitment to do so.

If it was my situation, I would agree and ask for weekly housecleaning and laundry assistance (complete housecleaning/oven/fridge/laundry washed, folded, and put away) and some weekly childcare assistance, so that you can spend some time individually with each child.

[rparker]

Originally Posted by Marsupialmom

I think you need to ask your husband why he wants to do this. Your view of no need might not be his view.

He has said why he wants to do it. It's because his employer is having an extremely difficult time recruiting other employees, covering shifts, and remaining profitable. This is true of almost all rural hospitals in the United States and is a problem that healthcare reform is only going to partially mitigate. His reasoning is pure idealism and reflects his concern/interest in providing healthcare to underserved populations. I agree with him to a point but I'm less altruistic and more concerned with the specific impact of his decisions on our individual family unit. He agrees with me 100% about us not needing the money and he doesn't believe that this will improve the standard of life for our family (beyond a really indirect, abstract sense of improving the state of healthcare in general).

Rhetorically speaking why is it you perceive it is fair that he works at all and you don't?

Probably only because I agreed to not work outside the home before we had children. If I had a career that I loved or felt passionately about and the choice was either him working 60+ hours and me working 0, well, I'd probably be really upset.

I guess I was thinking more in terms of how much time is it fair for one parent to voluntarily spend outside the home than is necessary for a family's financial security if that means the other parent will see an increase in childcare/housework responsibilities. And I actually am really interested in this idea in general, not just as it applies in this situation. Would it be fair if he were spending an extra 13 hours per week golfing? Volunteering? Hanging out at a bar? I think there are certain personality types for whom their career is much more than a financial means to an end and more of an obsession, to what extent should a spouse be expected to support that? And to what extent does adding kids into the picture change the answer? Are there actually degrees of "stay at home-ness" or is that a completely absurd concept?

[vbactivist]

Are his student loans (if he has any paid off)? Will he be able to pay off debts earlier if he takes these extra hours (even if that isn't the reason for taking the extra hours)? Do you guys have a long term plan regarding when your dh wants to retire?

I do think that part of being a physician for some doctors is idealism. I can understand him feeling strongly about meeting his patients' needs. I have a close friend whose husband works for an underserved population, and she just considers the time her husband is away as part of their entire family's service, if that makes sense. I have passed up small opportunities, because I know they would interfere with my husband's career - and we want to put his career first.

I think it would be reasonable to have household help on the days he is working. but i also think it's reasonable for him to work more hours.

[rparker]

Originally Posted by JudiAU

If it was my situation, I would agree and ask for weekly housecleaning and laundry assistance (complete housecleaning/oven/fridge/laundry washed, folded, and put away) and some weekly childcare assistance, so that you can spend some time individually with each child.

We have decided that whether or not this schedule change happens (it still has to be approved) we will probably put our 3 year old in daycare for about 10 hours per week (2.5 hours MTRF if possible). I have mixed feelings about this, but it will defuse a lot of tension and is actually something that she would enjoy. I'll probably only be able to manage 1-1 time with her for shorter increments though on the evenings/weeks her father doesn't work because I'm not comfortable with placing a baby in daycare or bottle feeding. (A mother's helper might be another option for small amounts of time "away" from the baby that we'll look into.)

If he does increase his hours he has agreed to hire someone to deal with the outside work (mowing part of the year, but we mainly have a ton of snow that needs to be removed from sidewalks every few days for over half the year). I've also asked that he take responsibility for laundering his work clothing (which is more time consuming than regular laundry) either on his week off or through a laundry service. I feel kind of weird about hiring someone for help with housecleaning in addition to utilizing daycare, but it's definitely on the table. I don't mind doing the major housework during his off weeks if he keeps the kids occupied, but I guess we'll soon learn how practical that is with a toddler and a newborn.

[rparker]

Originally Posted by vbactivist

Are his student loans (if he has any paid off)? Will he be able to pay off debts earlier if he takes these extra hours (even if that isn't the reason for taking the extra hours)? Do you guys have a long term plan regarding when your dh wants to retire?

I do think that part of being a physician for some doctors is idealism. I can understand him feeling strongly about meeting his patients' needs. I have a close friend whose husband works for an underserved population, and she just considers the time her husband is away as part of their entire family's service, if that makes sense. I have passed up small opportunities, because I know they would interfere with my husband's career - and we want to put his career first.

I think it would be reasonable to have household help on the days he is working. but i also think it's reasonable for him to work more hours.

His student loans aren't paid off, but they will be in 5-7 years even if we see no increase in income. They'd be paid off sooner, but we're paying our mortgage down pretty quickly (5 years) first. The extra money probably won't make that huge of a difference because of the tax ramifications (which are pretty substantial) and the extra expenses involved in hiring household help. He plans to retire in about 20 years at age 70. He has no desire to retire sooner and I wouldn't be shocked if he decided to continue working part-time at that point.

Viewing his additional hours as "our entire family's service" is an attitude adjustment I need to make. And it's one that I think I'll be able to manage if our older daughter isn't put under too much stress by the change in schedule (I doubt the baby will notice).


Edit to add: And it actually really does help me to have other people validate that he's not being unreasonable because I think that being pregnant is making *me* more unreasonable/emotional. I took a mental step back from the situation this morning and decided to go along with the hour increase, but a large part of me is still pretty emotional and insecure about any perceived "threat" to our family's regular routine so I worry that I'm conceding more than I should... it helps to hear that I'm not.

[Tigerchild]

Whether or not you support him is up to you. I would say that instead of resenting his desire to do this work, it'd probably be healthier for you to get the support YOU need, without checking the scorecard. (Because really, not to be rude, but I really do not believe that you think going to the bar for 10 hours is the equivalent of being the only medical practitioner in a very rural area by any stretch of the imagination whatsoever)

Yes, it is fair to say, "Okay, I see the greater value in what you want to accomplish here. But I'm going to need some support too, so that I don't go stir crazy. Here's what I'd like:"

I'm going to guess that your husband did not suddenly get bonked on the head one day and wake up the next morning with a lot of drive. I don't really know why so many people expect having children (whether one is male or female) to change that aspect of personality. I have seen a lot of people with drive in particular get into homeschooling and homemaking and make it something that satisfies that drive. It looks like it all revolves around the family, and I guess tangentially it does, but it also satisifies a deep need on their part to *do* and move and shake. (Not saying that all of us are like that, I'm certainly not, but I have seen it become a beautiful expression of that aspect of many people's personalities and I can appreciate it even if it's not a trait that I personally share.)

I think it's okay to pout sometimes. Look, having been the kid of a mover and shaker, frankly it sucks sometimes. I know enough preacher's kids and other "community necessity" folks to know that it's not sunshine and roses all the time. In many ways, while one person may be called, the whole family will sacrifice, and the total sacrifice of the family (combined) will always be far greater than the called person. At the same time, either you leave him or put down an ultimatum; or you deal and keep communication going . I don't think it's a great healthy idea for kids involved if the spouse lets resentment build up over time; you might think you can hide it, but no you can't.

So. *Can* you deal? Really? Set aside comparing this to golfing, because it's not and you know it. If you really and truly cannot deal, it's time to be very explicitly clear about it. If you can, and it sounds like you probably can, and you have said yes for now (doesn't have to be forever), then I think you kind of have to let the concept of quantitative "time" fairness go, figure out what you need (other than what you can't have, like him being able to blow off a travel restriction), go about securing that, and practice letting the rest roll off your back. And re-evaluate, when your agreed upon time/contract deadline comes up.

[texmati]

reading your updates-- I would say I wouldn't agree. I don't think there is a specific # of hours, but it seems like this is almost volunteer work-- basically time at work that is motivated not by taking care of your family, but altruism.

I'd ask him to go back to the drawing board and come up with someting more reasonable than 30 hours a week.

[MeepyCat]

I think the question of what's "fair" is complicated (previous posters have hit the same points I would).

I have to say, the notion of working 126 hours a week every other week? It is INSANE. There are only 168 hours in a week. So the weeks he works this schedule, he only has 42 hours off. Does he commute at all? When does he plan to sleep? I have trouble imagining an employer even *agreeing* to that schedule on an ongoing basis, as the risk of accidents and errors would be astronomical. I can see a few weeks of flat-out at a crunch time... but a good employer would pay bonuses for that, and send presents to spouses.

If this increase in hours doesn't come with a *large* amount of extra income, I'd be very opposed to my husband taking it on.

If your husband is taking on this schedule, I do think it's fair to demand some help around the house, in the form of paid cleaning and paid childcare. I know you say you want to homeschool, but would putting your older child in preschool a few days a week get you a break, and some time this fall to focus on or nap with the baby? Would a mother's day out program or a babysitter a few afternoons a week be useful?

I cross-posted with a bunch of people, and I want to say: assuming that Texmati meant to type 130 when she typed 30, I am with her.

[cappuccinosmom]

If money were not an issue, I'd agree to it with the addendum that'd I'd be getting some paid help at home.

If my dh were a billionaire, he'd still be working long hours. That's just him. To make him take any kind of "down time" would be like putting a boulder on his chest. Now, SAHM is the life I want, and he is more than willing to let me do that, so I am willing to let him do what he needs to do to not be depressed. When he's working at full steam, when he does come home he's really ready to rest and interact with us. When he's not working "enough", he feels lazy and distracted and cranky, so his being at home is no benefit to us.

Now, as the kids get older, dh wants to have them working with him at times, and likes to teach them and take them on errands with him (and also to home closings and tax lawyer meetings ). So knowing that his goal is to have work that involves the children on some level, and gives them an opportunity to spend time with him, that mitigates the "away" factor a little.

[CassnBeth]

Putting "fair" aside, I am not sure that it is reasonable for one person in a family to decide the exact form of contribution the rest of your family will make to society. I see some of the other posters calling this a form of service that your family is doing and that is true but I know how het up people get on here when someone tries to pick a charity on someone else's behalf and I think that thought process might apply here too. If you agree that you want this to be your major "charity" as well then all bets are off.

[BetsyS]

Reading your update, I'm thinking that this change might be *better* for him, and in return for your family.

I used to work at a job that was "only" 80 hours/2 weeks, but 48 of those hours were in long, 24 hour shifts. When you got home from one of those shifts, you easily lost 8 daytime hours just sleeping.

The new schedule has your husband being able to sleep every other night IN HIS OWN BED for the week that he is "on", as opposed to being at the hospital for 4 nights in a row. This is HUGE. HUGE. The restful sleep you get when you don't have to listen for the beeper is just so much better than on-call sleep.

I think you might be pleasantly surprised that he has more energy on his 7 days off with the new schedule (because of those night time breaks) than he does now on the 10 days off (cause 4 days and nights of call in a row, with no breaks, has just got to be brutal, even if it's a small hospital and even if he does sleep *okay* on his nights on-call).

[Linda on the move]

For a while my DH worked a job where he traveled every single week, usually leaving on Sunday night and getting back on Saturday morning. Every week. Sometimes, he wasn't able to get home for the weekend. A lot of my friends are married to men in the Air Force, so their husbands are gone for months at a time.

I don't think that working an average of 63 hours a week is that much for a professional. It seems normal to me. This is who you married.

My advice is to support his dreams, and hire help. Hire someone to come in a clean your home every week (or every other week), hire a lawn service, and drop his laundry off for him.

Every single thing that you can pay someone to do that will make life easier, just pay for.

Also, figure out ways to pamper yourself. On his off times, go get a pedicure or message or something.

I can see how the timing, with the new baby on the way, is really bad. I'd be a little freaked out, too.

But you can do this, and you can figure out a way to do it that really works for you AND for your kids.