"Fair" number of hours for DP to work? - Page 2

[rightkindofme]

Oh man. Given your responses... I dinno. So he is just about 50 years old. (You said he is going to retire in 20 years at 70.) How is his body handling this kind of insane schedule? Sleep deprivation causes serious problems. I would have a hard time with my partner signing up for something that provided him with even less time to stuff as basic as *sleep*.

I hope this works out for you and your family. I'm glad you are hiring a bunch of help, it sounds like a really good thing.

[BetsyS]

Originally Posted by rightkindofme

How is his body handling this kind of insane schedule? Sleep deprivation causes serious problems. I would have a hard time with my partner signing up for something that provided him with even less time to stuff as basic as *sleep*.
.

But, the new schedule gives him MORE time for sleep. Instead of 4 nights in a row at the hospital, he's working every other night for a week, with the alternate nights at home.

[lolar2]

Originally Posted by cappuccinosmom

If money were not an issue, I'd agree to it with the addendum that'd I'd be getting some paid help at home.

This!

[Magelet]

honestly, if money is not an issue? 30-40 hours a week. why? because our values are family centered. We both work to support ourselves, (no kids yet) and one of us will continue to do so when we have them, but only the minimum needed for reasonable security and savings. (Even if we have jobs we love, we won't work excessively. Family, home, and our relationship are our priorities).

However, I think it says a lot about our family and our personalities. Your DP is idealistic and in love with his job.

I can't imagine DP working 70 hours a week or more myself even without kids. 40 every other week or so is more than enough (unfortunately not financially enough, we need to find him and me both a little more work.)

[Thystle]

My uncle is a surgeon. His first marriage broke up over the hours he worked, many times 7 days a week for weeks if not months on end... not to mention being oncall 24/7.


You married a doctor. It's like marrying a policeman or into the military. You marry the job ideals. Heck military wives can go one year or more and never see their husbands.


This is not meant to be snarky in anyway but do you realize how lucky you actually are? Most women married to doctors would give their left leg to have every other week off. Hell they would likely jump for joy to have one or two days off consistantly each week or month. Maybe you need to relook at it from that angle and try to find peace with it as it is a really sweet set up for a doc honestly. Heck alot of women not married to a doc would love it! Nothing has to be forever.

[scottishmommy]

My dad is a doctor. I can totally relate to your issue! I feel so bad for doctor's wives sometimes. I remember when we were kids and my dad was never home. Luckily my parents live in a university town with an enormous teaching hospital, so there were thousands of other doctor's wives around. My mom had a great support system. If I were you I would hire a housekeeper, outsource his laundry, and hire a mother's helper for a few hours a week.

[Momtwice]

You mention feeling isolated. I would urge you to not depend on your husband as your only adult source of socializing and fun. If he works these additional hours, I would strongly consider finding a way to have FUN and FRIENDS including hiring paid child care if that is something that appeals to you part time. If not, you could start a mom's book group/playgroup or some other social outlet that includes the children.

When I was married, I used to depend far too much on my husband for socializing when I hadn't realized that he was such an introvert that he hated this. Family time was not that important to him. Enjoying his job was. Those were some very lonely years.

The every other week thing....if he;s working such an extreme number of hours on his working weeks, will he just be sleeping and catching up on his off weeks? Again, I would create as much fun and friendship for yourself as you need to. If you have other SAHM/homeschooling mom friends they are a great source of socializing!

[rparker]

Originally Posted by MeepyCat

I have to say, the notion of working 126 hours a week every other week? It is INSANE. There are only 168 hours in a week. So the weeks he works this schedule, he only has 42 hours off. Does he commute at all? When does he plan to sleep? I have trouble imagining an employer even *agreeing* to that schedule on an ongoing basis, as the risk of accidents and errors would be astronomical. I can see a few weeks of flat-out at a crunch time... but a good employer would pay bonuses for that, and send presents to spouses.

If this increase in hours doesn't come with a *large* amount of extra income, I'd be very opposed to my husband taking it on.

Part of the time he is working is/can be spent sleeping. When he's at work he has his own bedroom that he can use. Theoretically he could go an entire shift where they are so busy he is unable to sleep, but it's unlikely. I agree that it's crazy, but it's pretty standard for doctors doing any kind of regular hospital work (ER doctors, hospitalists, medical residents, surgeons, OBGYNs, etc.) so his employer and peers all view it as pretty normal. At his last job he was doing 13 hour clinic days and then could easily get several nights in a row where his sleep was disrupted because he had to go into the hospital to deal with sick babies since he was on peds call almost 24-7. That situation was NOT tolerable for either of us though.

His commute is about 5 miles. There are actually days up here where that could theoretically be really far to travel, but on the off chance that we get so much snow so quickly that the roads can't be cleared the hospital will send someone in a snowmobile to pick him up

The pay increase would probably be about 12.5% of his current salary.

Originally Posted by BetsyS

But, the new schedule gives him MORE time for sleep. Instead of 4 nights in a row at the hospital, he's working every other night for a week, with the alternate nights at home.

Your assessment of the sleep situation is dead on. On the days where he only has a 10 hour shift (preceded by a 24 hour one) he will be able to come home for 14 hours and catch up on sleep. It probably won't give him much extra time during his "off" hours to spend with the kids, but it should help to preserve his sanity.

[rparker]

Originally Posted by Thystle

My uncle is a surgeon. His first marriage broke up over the hours he worked, many times 7 days a week for weeks if not months on end... not to mention being oncall 24/7.


You married a doctor. It's like marrying a policeman or into the military. You marry the job ideals. Heck military wives can go one year or more and never see their husbands.


This is not meant to be snarky in anyway but do you realize how lucky you actually are? Most women married to doctors would give their left leg to have every other week off. Hell they would likely jump for joy to have one or two days off consistantly each week or month. Maybe you need to relook at it from that angle and try to find peace with it as it is a really sweet set up for a doc honestly. Heck alot of women not married to a doc would love it! Nothing has to be forever.

Well, I am his second wife (although no kids from the first marriage) and both his career and his career interests (i.e. wanting to work somewhere rural) definitely contributed to the demise of that marriage.

No, I do realize that these aren't exceptional hours for a doctor to work. They're a huge improvement even over the # of hours he worked when we were childless and during the first year of our daughter's life. Locally they are also (to a certain extent) optional. Several of the other doctors in the community work ridiculously "easy" schedules for their profession. I've also known physicians (almost always female) who actually work less than 40 hours per week (and have a husband who is also a professional with a six figure salary)... and I've seen firsthand how this kind of "work ethic" is looked down upon by other doctors. I'll admit that I've probably "drunk the Koolaid" in this respect to a certain extent and would be surprised/uncomfortable if he began working less than 50 hours per week... at least partially because it would be really out of character.

[A&A]

My dh works a lot of hours. I guess I'm just glad he has a job in this economy.

[rparker]

clarification

It didn't occur to me to explicitly state this, but I guess part of the issue that was in the back of my mind when I asked how many hours are "fair" for one parent to work is the assumption of both parents agreeing on an attachment parenting lifestyle and the general value set associated with having one full-time stay at home parent. The set of parenting values that he and I agree on (full term/"on demand" bf-ing and CLW, co-sleeping, gentle discipline, quick response to baby's cries, cloth diapers, homeschooling, etc.) involve a pretty high intensity of parenting for the first few years compared to the dominant cultural values in the US.

My husband feels as strongly about AP-ing as I do and would be pretty upset if I suggested that we forgo any item on the above list. He would be surprised/hurt if I suddenly announced that I wanted to work outside the home and utilize 20+ hours a week of daycare while either of our children were still babies/toddlers. Of course there's zero chance of any of that happening. We talked extensively about our parenting values before having children and I really am grateful that he is able to earn an income that allows me to be a SAHM.

I guess in my mind the issue of "fairness" doesn't come down to should/shouldn't one parent work more than "full-time," but to what degree is it reasonable to expect the other parent to do "everything else" involved in housework/childcare in order that the other parent can work. Judging by the responses I've gotten so far, a lot of women agree that once one parent's schedule surpasses a certain weekly amount it is reasonable/sane to hire help.

When I first posted I honestly wasn't sure if hiring extra help was a legitimate compromise or if I just totally don't have the temperament to be a SAHM. I have no model to base this on IRL. Almost all of the women I know WOH, most of them by choice (i.e. both they and their partner work fewer than 40 hours in order to divide responsibilities more equitably and they have no desire to be SAHMs). Most of the families I've met locally (both with SAHMs and WOHMs) don't practice attachment parenting and have no problem with placing their children in the local schools (which are very poor). Other people think I'm crazy for the amount of time that I spend with our daughter (I've been told this) and I am slightly burnt out at the thought of having that increase because my husband wants to work more. I can rationally make the decision to have her go to daycare for a few hours a week (assuming they'll take her on that limited of a basis) but it's a real struggle for me emotionally and completely not an option with the baby.

And I do know that I really am very lucky to be able to be a SAHM and to have the option of hiring extra help without it being a financial burden. I guess that part of it is that I feel guilty? Like, since I "get" to be a SAHM and not stress about money I should be able to handle all of the childcare/housework 24-7 by myself... but then I have trouble accepting that idea because it goes against the beliefs of my mother and all of my female friends. Sorry for writing a novel!

[rparker]

Originally Posted by Momtwice

You mention feeling isolated. I would urge you to not depend on your husband as your only adult source of socializing and fun. If he works these additional hours, I would strongly consider finding a way to have FUN and FRIENDS including hiring paid child care if that is something that appeals to you part time. If not, you could start a mom's book group/playgroup or some other social outlet that includes the children.

[...]

Again, I would create as much fun and friendship for yourself as you need to. If you have other SAHM/homeschooling mom friends they are a great source of socializing!

You are completely right. That was my strategy when he worked crazier hours and we lived in California... I started an attachment parenting group, went to LLL meetings, baby story hour at the library, etc. Most of those things aren't an option here. There is one "moms' group," but I don't share its values (non-AP, conservative religious and I'm an atheist). There is also a "progressive parents" group that my friend started which isn't very active. I try to arrange a couple of play dates per month for my daughter with children from that group, but all of the other parents in it WOH (except for one or two dads with whom I don't have that much in common).

I'm not trying to be one of those deliberately difficult people who complain that there's nothing to do! It really is unbelievable how few children there are in our local community but we actually have a disproportionate number of residents over the age of 65. There are also very few SAHMs and the majority of them belong to one particular (fairly insular) religious sect. I'm actually pretty ok with spending time by myself, or even in social "kid" settings... it's just the hours and hours by myself with a two year old that become kind of daunting. My husband has actually pointed out that at this point she'll probably be excited to go to daycare for a few hours a day because that's where all of the other kids are

[Tigerchild]

Okay now, don't use your "APness" as an excuse to beat up on yourself or to engage in oneupsmanship with yourself!

It is NOT un-AP to:
*have a housekeeper come in
*allow other trusted adults/teens to develop a relationship with your child(ren)

It may very well be anti-AP to:
*refuse any help in the community (paid or otherwise) so that you are exhausted and stressed out
*sacrifice your happiness and that of your children to adhere to a rigid set of "you must/you can't" rules that have nothing to do with listening to the needs of your children AND your family.

[LessTraveledBy]

It completely depends on the two of you. However, I would never agree to something like this. How much one decided to work, esp. when the kids are small, tells a lot about the person's values. It seems like your dh has a good heart (thinking about how much he is needed at work). Yet, based on my values, I would not be ok with this decision.

So..... really... You need to figure out if YOU think it is ok.

[spmamma]

For me, the most important question would be, "How will this effect my marriage and family life?"

For me, it would be waaaaaaaay too much. But, if you think it's something that you can handle - and most importantly that your marriage and your children can handle - then go for it.

And I completely agree that you should hire some help. You'll have a lot on your plate with two small children. Having someone there to help with house cleaning, laundry and even a mother's helper would do wonders for you.

[vbactivist]

Originally Posted by rparker

His student loans aren't paid off, but they will be in 5-7 years even if we see no increase in income. They'd be paid off sooner, but we're paying our mortgage down pretty quickly (5 years) first. The extra money probably won't make that huge of a difference because of the tax ramifications (which are pretty substantial) and the extra expenses involved in hiring household help. He plans to retire in about 20 years at age 70. He has no desire to retire sooner and I wouldn't be shocked if he decided to continue working part-time at that point.

Viewing his additional hours as "our entire family's service" is an attitude adjustment I need to make. And it's one that I think I'll be able to manage if our older daughter isn't put under too much stress by the change in schedule (I doubt the baby will notice).


Edit to add: And it actually really does help me to have other people validate that he's not being unreasonable because I think that being pregnant is making *me* more unreasonable/emotional. I took a mental step back from the situation this morning and decided to go along with the hour increase, but a large part of me is still pretty emotional and insecure about any perceived "threat" to our family's regular routine so I worry that I'm conceding more than I should... it helps to hear that I'm not.

Re the bolded, I want to be clear, that is my friend's view. I'm not sure I could do it. But I hope you can find some satisfaction with your situation

[Arduinna]

I can see why he would want to do this, under the circumstances. However, your children are young, and it's not like this would be his only opportunity over the lifespan of his career to provide these extra hours of service to the community. I guess I can see trying it out with the stipulation that you get paid help at home ( if you want it ). But I don't think it's unreasonable for you to please ask him to postpone these extra hours of service for when the kids are older.

[azgirl]

You absolutely should hold your ground. If you "give in" or "sacrifice" you will resent him. Do not go against your gut and instincts. Let him know that it is more than you can handle and that you fear that even a one year trial will destroy your marriage. It sounds like you are already at your breaking point. It is not hyperbole that your marriage may not survive. I have been in a similar, but less intense situation (it was pre-kids) and our marriage has taken years to recover.

I also believe that charity begins at home. MY life experiences cause me to have a real problem with parents who spend more energy helping others (which often brings a lot of outside respect and prestige) than they do being emotionally and physically there for their children and spouses.

We could live comfortably with my husband working 40ish hours a week, but he will always work closer to 60. I can handle that because when he is home he is very engaged etc. But you aren't talking 60 hour weeks...

On the other hand if his schedule will actually help him be better rested, I guess it's possible you could see an improvement...

You and your children are making a lot of sacrifices so that your husband can do something really vital and helpful to the community at large as you and others have pointed out. He would still be making an enormously important contribution even if he was working shorter hours. His company may need to hire a third doctor to provide coverage. Just because that is difficult shouldn't mean your family has to suffer. Maybe I am extreme, but I think a parent should be focused on their family first and the community at large second.

I realize I am a little out of step with the majority of posters. Good luck with whatever your family decides to do!

[Linda on the move]

I guess that part of it is that I feel guilty? Like, since I "get" to be a SAHM and not stress about money I should be able to handle all of the childcare/housework 24-7 by myself... but then I have trouble accepting that idea because it goes against the beliefs of my mother and all of my female friends.

let go of the guilt. In most cultures, when women can afford help, it is seen as something to be envied, no judged.

It's really all in how you look at it. The person you find to clean your house will appreciate having the work and getting the money. To them, it is a blessing.

Having your whole house clean in one go is wonderful. To you, it is a blessing.

Being happy because the house is spotless and you didn't do it will make you so happy that it will make your husband happy. To him, it is a blessing.

It's GREAT!

You might do an affirmation like "I go beyond my mother's limitations."

Our house cleaners told me one time that they liked cleaning our house because we really live in our house and it seems like a happy house. I thought that was pretty cool, even though I'm not great at the whole house keeping thing!

Cleaning your own toilets doesn't make you a better mother.

(I do think getting pedicures makes me a better mother because it helps me be more patient. )

<<<Well, I am his second wife (although no kids from the first marriage) and both his career and his career interests (i.e. wanting to work somewhere rural) definitely contributed to the demise of that marriage.>>>>>>>>

This is who he is. You need to figure out how to make it work for you. It doesn't need to work for your mother. It needs to work for YOU.

The bottom line is that this isn't about homeschooling or cosleeping or any of that, it's about fighting with your husband over something so that you can do things in a way that your mother approves of.