B12

[karika]

I am new to this line of thought (veg). I believe in vegan, but have not fully committed yet (still having free range eggs in baking, and a bit of chicken (humanely raised on non GMO feed and humanely slaughtered, though I felt guilty for eating it) and fish (wild caught). When I read the Vegan Society page about B12, I really questioned if vegan could be a viable option if it is clearly lacking a necessary component for human nutrition. To me, if it is missing, then vegan is not the optimal diet.

At Vegan Society http://www.vegansociety.com/lifestyl...ition/b12.aspx it says, "Many herbivorous mammals, including cattle and sheep, absorb B12 produced by bacteria in their own digestive system. B12 is found to some extent in soil and plants." which may mean we used to get adequate levels because those B12 bacteria used to live in our gut too when we had a little soil with our food. In this case I would liken it to our current need to take probiotics to create the correct flora since we no longer get those beneficial bacteria in our clean cooking and I can see the case for supplementing and still believe that vegan is an optimal human diet.

I bought canned clams (that I haven't tried yet) to get B12. I drink fortified coconut milk and eat fortified coconut yogurt (along with my weakness for the meat the other day) because I am nursing and better safe than sorry.
Then I read this other article which makes perfect sense to me.

http://www.naturalnews.com/029531_vi...B12_vegan.html In this article the scientist quoted states that vitamin B12 deficiency is caused by a digestive problem that causes difficulty in absorbing nutrients from food, not whether it is plant or meat based.

I shared this latter link in another thread and was told it is bunk. I am new here (veg) as I said, so looking for some discussion. I looked in recent threads and did not see one. I am sure experienced vegans have talked on this subject here before, but can we visit it again?

[Sayward]

It was me who cried 'bunk' in the other thread. I'm sorry if I sounded harsh (baby was fussing so I hurried). I get very nervous when I see misinformation like this because

1) It's just dangerous - bad nutritional info can cause actual harm to people, especially children. And there's nothing worse for veganism than an obviously unhealthy vegan (or worse, an ex vegan who says 'I tried to be vegan but it's impossible - I got sick!')

2) I'm veg*n and care very deeply about veganism. Bad nutritional advice reflects poorly on the movement and makes us look quacky

Please understand I am not accusing you of this at all, I know it was not your intent and you were just meaning to share new information you found. FWIW, in my opinion that website is not at all credible. In the article you linked to they cited 3 other websites as their sources - NO actual scientific studies.

About B12 in general, ruminants like cows and sheep, and other herbivores, have an entirely different digestive system than us. Four stomachs, regurgitating food to chew cud. Because of this they can absorb the B12 that is made by the bacteria in their bellies. We do not have that same sort of system. Our inability to absorb the B12 is not because of a deficiency/illness in our guts, it's simply because the B12-producing bacteria live too far down the line, in a place where we can't utilize the B12 they produce. it's a location issue and you can't change that.

More primitive people and other primates didn't/don't wash their food so they get dirt + bacteria (B12) that way, plus they all eat bugs (whether inadvertently or intentionally). The thing is, we are neither primitive peoples nor are we other primates. We are humans living in a very different, totally modern situation. Nothing about our lifestyles is natural! We now have the opportunity to live in a way that causes no (or very very little) harm while at the same time gaining optimal health. The fact that this includes bacteria supplements doesn't mean it's not TOTALLY RAD

[germin8]

I, too, thought our digestive systems could digest its own-made B12. Hmmm.

Well, how about just eating fermented foods, seaweed, or algae to the diet for B12?

[kathymuggle]

Hope it is not Off topic....

I tried to buy B12 in a vitamin form from a health food store about a week ago and they could not assure me it was vegan. Where do you get your B12 from????

[marsupial-mom]

First, you have to avoid all animal products for a few months before B12 becomes an issue. If you're eating vegan only part time or if you are lacto-ovo vegetarian then you get B12 and you don't have to worry.

So, until you're really ready to go vegan, don't worry about B12.
Or, said another way, don't let a fear about B12 prevent you from eating less meat and cheese.

Now, about B12:
There's some evidence that if we lived a more "natural" life and our agriculture did not involve pesticides and fertilizers or factory farming pollution then vegans wouldn't need to supplement B12 because the bacteria that produces it would be present on unwashed plant foods like fruits.
BUT
that lifestyle is not possible today. We must always wash our fruits and veggies because of the risk of e coli and other nasty pathogens. Even organic fruits are not safe because of all the run-off pollution from factory farming.
Remember, in a more "natural" lifestyle, river water would be relatively safe to drink.

So nowadays vegans must supplement with B12. It's a very easy thing to do and can be done simply by eating foods that have been fortified with B12 or by taking a chewable tablet once a week.

Try not to think of it as unnatural. Think of it as a modern solution to a problem we wouldn't have if we lived more natural lives.

[marsupial-mom]

Vegan vitamin sources

Deva is the name of one common brand of vegan vitamins.

You can also find vegan vitamins at vegan stores like Food Fight or Vegan Essentials, both of which ship orders all over the US.

If a fortified soy milk or cereal has a vegan label, then the vitamins in that product were derived from vegan sources.

[smallmama]

I totally agree with Sayward. I recently started taking a supplement after reading this and this (including a passage on "Can a Natural Diet Require Supplements?") and this.

I take the Deva brand sublingual B12, ordered off of Amazon.

[germin8]

I have Jarrow's Methyl B12. Vegan.

[somegirl99]

In the past I used Solgar chewable B12 (bought at Whole Foods) but now I get mine from Red Star nutritional yeast and/or fortified soy or almond milk.

[Sayward]

Originally Posted by germin8

I, too, thought our digestive systems could digest its own-made B12. Hmmm.

Well, how about just eating fermented foods, seaweed, or algae to the diet for B12?

All of the 'authorities' on veganism insist that these are not reliable sources, and the studies that have been done support this. I wouldn't risk B12 deficiency, which is NASTY business.

Fermented foods may have B12 in very small amounts, but you never know and you certainly don't know the amount you're getting. Seaweed/algae actually have B12 analogues that can interfere with the absorption of real B12. If you eat a lot of seaweed/algae (like spirulina or chlorella) you should definitely take a B12 supplement!

[Sayward]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle

Hope it is not Off topic....

I tried to buy B12 in a vitamin form from a health food store about a week ago and they could not assure me it was vegan. Where do you get your B12 from????

Most B12 supplements are grown in bacteria, not harvested from animals, making them vegan by default. BUT, I've seen them with milk in them (what!? why??) and you have to be careful of other ingredients as well. Tradr Joes does not carry a vegan B12. Whole Foods does. Deva is an awesome all-vegan brand. If you want to order online I suggest supporting Food Fight!, because they are rad. =)

[karika]

a lot of scientific data

For me, the decision is still not apparent. There are many scientific facts in this article that I want to study further. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_B12

Someone on another site brought up that the form of B12 that is in the fortified foods is a synthetic version and not methyl B12. She compared it to how foods fortified with vitamin D use D2, which is not the same as D3. I know from studies that D2 is not useful for the body in place of D3. D3 is the form of vitamin D that humans need.

From the article:

"A common synthetic form of the vitamin, cyanocobalamin, does not occur in nature, but is used in many pharmaceuticals and supplements, and as a food additive, due to its stability and lower cost."

this concerns me:
"Rhône-Poulenc of France, at one point used genetically engineered versions of one or both of these species {speaking of the fermentation of microorganisms which is how the synthetic B12 is produced} . It is not clear whether Sanofi-Aventis, the company which the pharmaceutical division of Rhône-Poulenc merged into, has continued the use of genetically modified organisms."

The article also covers the psuedo B12 that another poster mentioned, which I had already researched and I understand why they are not a viable alternative.

I am leaning to the camp that termites, mollusks and some other foods from the waters were the way ancient people received B12. Inland there are mollusks living in rivers, and in deserts insects would surely have been eaten.

At this point in my understanding, I am not comfortable with 'needing' B12 supplementation (again) tho I may read or understand more and change my mind again later...

[catnip]

The reason I supplement B-12 is that the damage from a deficiency in it can be permanent before it is symptomatic.

Why does it matter how some mythical primal vegan ancestors got B-12? That's not the world we live in.

We live in a world with cars and more than 6 billion humans, and the most sustainable way to feed us all a nutritonally adequate diet without wrecking the planet and committing atrocities is to remove animal foods from our diets.

[Tdunahoo]

It was my understanding that fermented foods DO have a sufficient amount of B12 and even if they didn't B12 can be found in nori, nutritional yeast, kimchi, sauerkraut, miso, tempeh, rejuevelac (and any fermented foods), tamari, tofu, kombucha and bee pollen.

Our system only needs a small amount of B12 a day and there are many options for vegans to eat it. Also as PP mentioned supplements are also available if you want to go that route.

If you think about it there are many of raw foodists who do not take supplements and are very healthy. As with any diet, you need to make sure there is a nutritional balance.

[Sol_y_Paz]

Originally Posted by karika

still having free range eggs, and a bit of chicken and fish (wild caught).

I do the same as you and have been doing this for years, I have people call me a vegetarian, even though I point out the difference every time. I take B-12 edible tablets twice a week on the above diet, as the fish and eggs I am not sure supply all I need, and chicken is few and far between and doesn't IMO count towards the B-12 requirement since it is not a staple in my diet. I eat and enjoy a lot of fruits and vegetables daily. Beans every week. Eggs do provide a lot of B-12.
I am also very interested in this thread. Thanks for starting it.

[Sol_y_Paz]

Originally Posted by Tdunahoo

It was my understanding that fermented foods DO have a sufficient amount of B12 and even if they didn't B12 can be found in nori, nutritional yeast, kimchi, sauerkraut, miso, tempeh, rejuevelac (and any fermented foods), tamari, tofu, kombucha and bee pollen.

I eat nori, tofu, and miso. I did not know they contain B-12.

[catnip]

The big reason that I think it is important to supplement B-12 is that, unlike say iron, B-12 deficiency can cause permanent, irreversible nerve damage before you feel symptoms. Whereas, for example, with iron deficiency, you increase your iron and the problem goes away, that's not the case with B-12. And honestly, omnivores should supplement it, too.

[Koalamom]

Subbing!

Great info and discussion!

[princesstutu]

A few weeks ago, I went to an Ethical Eating presentation about veganism and afterward I asked the presenter about B12 deficiency. He told me his opinion is thus: people stress about the 3 nutrients vegans are usually talked about being deficient in (B12 and 2 others...I don't remember), but "regular" people are generally deficient in 7 nutrients (he told me, but I don't remember) according to studies and no one trips on that. His opinion was that the worry is not that important and if people are concerned, they should just take a supplement.

I asked because I prefer optimal nutrition through food. But, I supplement right now and that's fine, too. I just want to be as healthy as possible.

[catnip]

In a pinch, you probably could get enough B12 to get by from kombucha and other fermented foods. But when you can take a supplement and be SURE, why wouldn't you?