Mothering › Forums › Health › The Case Against Circumcision › That dreaded word, "recommendation"
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

That dreaded word, "recommendation"

post #1 of 27
Thread Starter 
I often ask myself why the AAP feels the need to weigh in on circumcision every every 10 years or so; the basic penis design has not changed much in several thousand years. Its functions are the same. The AAP should have left it at 1971's "absolutely no medical indication for circumcision in the neonatal period". That first pronouncement summed it up fine.

The obvious answer is that over time it has become not an anatomical or medical question, but a political question. I hate that. I hate that children's bodies have become a social experiment and a tug-of-war.

It will probably be 6 months or more before any new statement about circumcision comes out of the AAP or CDC, so I don't think anyone needs to panic or jump to conclusions. Nevertheless, all signs point to the fact that this may be the AAP's most political statement yet on circumcision, and it certainly will be the CDC's first time venturing an opinion on male infant circumcision.

I don't expect an out-and-out recommendation to circumcise. Why? Because it creates legal liability. Saying "don't cut" is OK, because the design is nature's, but saying "do cut" leads to lawsuits if parents rely on it and their son is badly damaged. That's why both the AAP and CDC are going all-out between now and Valentine's Day to "study" complications and show that they are extremely rare. It's a CYA move. Yes, they already know the answer they want (need) before the studies start.

In case anyone still doubts that these 2 groups are going to insist that parents have a very momentous decision to make, just have a look at the first 2 sentences of the "Background" section of this abstract near the bottom of this post. When will American doctors and researchers give it a rest and stop pestering parents about circumcision? It is only an issue in the US because doctors keep insisting it's an issue. If you shut up and hand parents back a whole baby, most are quite happy with that.

The 'several countries' the CDC refers to must mean the handful of African countries that have rolled over and let the WHO set their circumcision agenda. And how the heck did they make the leap from the first sentence (adults, Africa) to the second sentence (neonates, USA)? By the way, '50% protection' as they use it doesn't mean half are immune... it means 50% of those destined to seroconvert will get HIV later than the intact group and the other half of the circumcised group. Their wording is intentionally misleading.

"Three African randomized controlled trials recently showed that adult male circumcision (MC) conferred approximately 50% protection against HIV acquisition. Several countries, including the United States, are updating their HIV prevention recommendations to include adult and neonatal MC."

They make it sound like a given, but it doesn't have to be. There will be a public comment period announced in the Federal Register in coming months, and folks can register their official opinions of the CDC's proposed guidelines.
post #2 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by brant31 View Post
When will American doctors and researchers give it a rest and stop pestering parents about circumcision? It is only an issue in the US because doctors keep insisting it's an issue. If you shut up and hand parents back a whole baby, most are quite happy with that.
Once 50% or more of them are intact themselves?
post #3 of 27
I actually did a thing while back to see what parents would do if there was no mention of circumcision it was a near 50/50 because quite a few parents would still bring it up if a doctor didn't mention it . Others would forget about it if it wasn't brought up.

I believe we need some doctors that are from France and Italy on the AAP task force that's how AAP will have more facts on them.
post #4 of 27
I'm just over how on earth circumcision will lead to later sexual behavior in terms of the use of protection, etc. I'm just really really baffled at the research here. I would say being worried about HIV infection earlier or later would definitely NOT be one of my decision-making factors in whether to circumcise. huh? Am I missing something?
If they'd just quit messing with the babies. jeez.
post #5 of 27
If CDC and AAP do say it exist and recommend it is the question why do that to kids at a young age .

If future men find out they got circ'ed because their parents didn't have faith in them plus circumcision is not an invisible condom so if parents do fall for the HIV trap it will not make sense because using condoms to prevent pgcy and still HIV is not the only STD there is plenty out there so why use a circ recommendation for HIV when they more likely could wear a condom anyways so thy don't get herpes, chamlydia , etc

So if they dtd with a condom and they are circ'ed for HIV protection that will make the thing go and backfire on the AAP/CDC
post #6 of 27
This makes me so mad. It's such willful misinterpretation and misapplication of research. And I cringe to see people who think it's *true* and using it to justify circumcision.

I can just see some guy telling my dd (when she's much older), "Hey, babe, don't worry about STDs/HIV, I'm circ'd!"

I plan to get my packet of materials together this year for the WY legislature, I hope that with the recession/budget concerns, this could be a time to get them to cut their circ funding (prior to the CDC/AAP statements coming out).
post #7 of 27
Quote:
When will American doctors and researchers give it a rest and stop pestering parents about circumcision? It is only an issue in the US because doctors keep insisting it's an issue. If you shut up and hand parents back a whole baby, most are quite happy with that.
Intact care instructions should be standard. Asking if parents would want to elect their healthy child's genitals under a knife is not only immoral but goes against their number one sacred dictum.

If parents knew how to care for a complete set of male genitals, they'd NEVER allow an arbitrary reduction surgery cross their minds.
Just knowing that a developing prepuce organ is designed to share a common membrane with the glans, being therefore a self cleaning environment, and care instructions are simple: Do not retract, clean only what you see; inflicting a wound on a penis would sound absurd. Well, because it is.

NO! They don't freely volunteer this information, but they're more than happy to solicit an unnecessary surgery on a healthy penis. After that, "its policy" to keep their mouth shut. "Informed Consent" is a sick joke.

What exactly is their deal? Why re-write a statement about ONE part of the male human body every ten years?

Humans experience more, I mean way way more, conflicting pathological hiccups on the toes. You name it: in-grown toenails, hammer toe, fungus, athlete's foot (which is contagious), stumped from injury... but there isn't a "Toe-ectomy Task Force" Why must there be a "Task Force".... FORCE??? on a male penis? And why are boys and men in this country (or Africa) being used as a political pawn in order to fabricate the circumcised members of the "Circumcision Task Force" agenda!?
post #8 of 27
how do you think any recommendation by these groups is going to be received, in the face of the new statistics showing 33 percent of boys are circumcised? ie., 2/3 are NOT circumcised. ?
post #9 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by brant31 View Post
I often ask myself why the AAP feels the need to weigh in on circumcision every every 10 years or so; the basic penis design has not changed much in several thousand years. Its functions are the same. The AAP should have left it at 1971's "absolutely no medical indication for circumcision in the neonatal period". That first pronouncement summed it up fine.

The obvious answer is that over time it has become not an anatomical or medical question, but a political question. I hate that. I hate that children's bodies have become a social experiment and a tug-of-war.

.
post #10 of 27
Quote:
It's a CYA move.
by brant31

Is CYA cover your a--?

Its unethical for doctors to even suggest circumcision.

Where rates dropped dramatically in UK, NZ and to a lesser extent Australia and Canada, it because of the attitude of the medical profession.
post #11 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElliesMomma View Post
how do you think any recommendation by these groups is going to be received, in the face of the new statistics showing 33 percent of boys are circumcised? ie., 2/3 are NOT circumcised. ?
Honestly I think the % is higher -- my SIL had her ds circumcised at his one week check-up, so his wouldn't have been counted.
post #12 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by MommytoB View Post
I actually did a thing while back to see what parents would do if there was no mention of circumcision it was a near 50/50 because quite a few parents would still bring it up if a doctor didn't mention it . Others would forget about it if it wasn't brought up.
It's not mentioned here and the rates are less than 10%.
post #13 of 27
So--there's not a lot of talk about confounding variables either. Would it make any sense in underdeveloped countries that the ones who circ'ed their children at birth may have been a bit westernized or had some $$--and so perhaps a tad more educated, and maybe some education at home about prevention or the kids were busy with education or whatnot and caught it later? I just have to wonder here--picking up HIV a few years later doesn't mean the circ was successful for anything. I mean it would make a lot more sense that something else was at play.
post #14 of 27
I am one who believes that the 50% protection against HIV is real. These were randomized controlled trials with replicable results, not observational studies. I realize how unpopular this makes me here.

BUT those results are completely irrelevant to RIC in the US because:

1) The main route of transmission of HIV in Africa is heterosexual contact, whereas in the US, homosexual contact accounts for a much larger percentage of the transmission. Circ has not been shown to be protective in preventing homosexual transmission.

2) Rates of HIV are low in the US, and tend to be sub-group specific, so RIC will not produce the desired population-level effect.


There are huge differences in HIV in Africa versus the US. There are communities in Africa that lost 80% of their population in ten years' time. Households are run by children. There are no teachers left, no nurses left, no mechanics left. Commerce fails. Complete disintegration of society. Would I consider circ as one way to stem an ongoing human catastrophe? Yes.

Contrast that to the US, where we are working (in relative stability) to reduce rates of HIV among certain subgroups, but where there has NEVER been a generalized epidemic. Is circ the answer? No way.
post #15 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mama Metis View Post
I am one who believes that the 50% protection against HIV is real. These were randomized controlled trials with replicable results, not observational studies. I realize how unpopular this makes me here.

BUT those results are completely irrelevant to RIC in the US because:

1) The main route of transmission of HIV in Africa is heterosexual contact, whereas in the US, homosexual contact accounts for a much larger percentage of the transmission. Circ has not been shown to be protective in preventing homosexual transmission.

2) Rates of HIV are low in the US, and tend to be sub-group specific, so RIC will not produce the desired population-level effect.


There are huge differences in HIV in Africa versus the US. There are communities in Africa that lost 80% of their population in ten years' time. Households are run by children. There are no teachers left, no nurses left, no mechanics left. Commerce fails. Complete disintegration of society. Would I consider circ as one way to stem an ongoing human catastrophe? Yes.

Contrast that to the US, where we are working (in relative stability) to reduce rates of HIV among certain subgroups, but where there has NEVER been a generalized epidemic. Is circ the answer? No way.
For the record, I agree with you. So, you are not alone. I also think it hurts our credibility as a group when people dismiss the studies out of hand. The studies have no relevance in the US. There are plenty of ways to argue this point and that should be the focus. We don't need to try to discredit what is widely viewed by researchers and health professionals as good science.
post #16 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mama Metis View Post
I am one who believes that the 50% protection against HIV is real. These were randomized controlled trials with replicable results, not observational studies.
I honestly, truly wish that were true. But with every month, we learn more and more of the methodological and data interpretation errors of these RCTs, which genuinely are not reproducible outside of the 3 groups of acqaintances who proposed and carried out these 3 trials.

Just yesterday I was reading a very scientific, thorough review of the RCTs taken as a group, written by a statistician and MD/MPH and which found enormous weaknesses. In effect, non-sexually transmitted infections may explain up to 2/3 of the seroconversions noted in the trials, which urgently suggests better sterilized surgical interventions are needed, not more. On top of that, there were recruitment biases, leadtime biases, statistically significant losses to follow-up, and clear associations with genital ulcer disease. Perhaps most importantly, the mechanism that has been suggested by which circumcision would confer protection makes no scientific sense. The researchers themselves admit it's a hypothesis and hasn't been proven in any studies.

Where we all agree -- and by all, I mean even the directors of the studies in question -- is that the African studies do not provide relevant or appropriate guidance for developed nations. Thus we ask: why are the CDC and AAP so absolutely determined to bring it up? Can they be dissuaded?
post #17 of 27
Brant, could you post a link to the review article you referenced? Thx
post #18 of 27
Thread Starter 
It's a draft submission for publication, so it doesn't have a URL yet. My friend and colleague worked on it for quite a while and recently asked a few people to review it for any obvious errors (mathematical or analysis) prior to submission. If it does get accepted for publication, I will post a link to it here right away.
post #19 of 27
Quote:
For the record, I agree with you. So, you are not alone. I also think it hurts our credibility as a group when people dismiss the studies out of hand. The studies have no relevance in the US. There are plenty of ways to argue this point and that should be the focus. We don't need to try to discredit what is widely viewed by researchers and health professionals as good science.
post #20 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by beru View Post
For the record, I agree with you. So, you are not alone. I also think it hurts our credibility as a group when people dismiss the studies out of hand. The studies have no relevance in the US. There are plenty of ways to argue this point and that should be the focus. We don't need to try to discredit what is widely viewed by researchers and health professionals as good science.
These studies are not the gospel truth and there are studies that have been conducted before them that show contradictory data. Scientists have voiced criticisms about these studies and as brant points out, more and more are coming up as time goes on. Pretending like the three RCTs are unchallengable does more of a disservice to honest, open dialogue.

I'm quite pro-science, but when three studies tout some magnanimous benefit that doesn't seem to play out in the real world, then I question how "real" the results of that study were.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: The Case Against Circumcision
Mothering › Forums › Health › The Case Against Circumcision › That dreaded word, "recommendation"