What are our options

[pomplemoose]

DSC's bio mom is absent she has visitation every other saturday but has only seen them once this year (in may then before that it was nov of 2009) she is apparently 7-8mths pregnant with another kid (we found out over fb and the last time she saw the kids in may she told them to lie to us and not tell us she was, but they told anyways) she doesnt call, or visit now she just texted my dh and said she's coming down next weekend to see them. This will just set us back the kids are happy and stable without her, right before school starts and were going to have to pick up the pieces again. does any one know if we could modify/reduce her visitation so that she cant just spring this on us. Since she has been so sporadic is there anyway we can tell her no? I'm sure shes only coming by because she wants them to see her pregnant. The only times she comes down are for her own selfish reasons.

[septmommy]

I commiserate 100% with having a horrendous ex-wife in the picture. I also understand the motivation to protect the kids and keep the peace. But I disagree with stepping between her and the kids. This is their relationship with their own mom. Even if it is dysfunctional and manipulative, it is my personal belief that they need the chance to experience that and learn from it. If you block that chance they will eventually put her on a pedestal and view you and DH as the reason they are estranged from her. This may be far from the truth, but children come up with amazing coping strategies in response to an absentee parent. It will be hard, it may set you all back, but these sporadic visits will allow the children to see her in a realistic light and to come up with their own feelings about her behaviors and her absence. This is just my 2 cents and no matter what you choose I applaud you in being so loving and protective of these children.

As far as your actual question...has the court ever issued her visitation rights? If not it is up to her to bring DH to court and fight for visitation. Until she does that I am pretty sure you have no obligation to hand the children over.

[pinksprklybarefoot]

I will give you the advice that the single mothers on the single parenting board would give WRT fathers pulling this same stunt:

If there is no agreement in place, you do not have to disrupt the children's lives right before school starts.

If there is an agreement, then it should be modified to reflect the true amount of time that this woman is willing to put forth parenting her children, or there should be a mandatory amount of notice. What if you already had plans?

Parents are important, but they should be a consistent presence in a child's life. In my book, if a parent can't at least make an appearance once a month (and this is on the WAY low end, and of course, excluding things like military service overseas, etc), then the parent caring for the child has the right to time the visits to least mess up the child emotionally. This applies to the mother or the father.

I am not saying that you should impede their relationship, but you should be able to lessen the blow of their mother not returning on a regular basis.

[pomplemoose]

It's good to see both sides of this from other people. sometimes situations like this are hard to be objective about. DSD is amost 9 now and seems to have pretty much figured her mom out. She has seen the anger and hurt, doesnt mention calling her and doesnt want to talk with her when (every few months) she calls, we get her to say hi though and beyond that she will only say a few words. DSS is only 6 and still is confused, I understand why he would need time to figure this out. Thats the other thing we did have plans next weekend, it's my mothers 50th and we were supposed to have a big thing with them. The kids are very close to my parents and I know that at least DSD will be devastated if she has to miss it. DH is concerned that if we do deny this weekend of visitation she will have some right to go back to court. They do have an order through a mediator but she has already violated it, she moved without informing us or the court, she took them out of the county when shes not allowed to. The court warned her but didn't charge her with contempt. I just had a nice calm fun weekend before school planned and would really like the kids to enjoy the last of summer without all this to weigh them down. I know they need to figure their mom out on their own but its hard to see them fell utterly forgotten and replaced and know we're the ones sending them to her every once and a while.

[septmommy]

If you already have plans, then by all means, tell her so. You don't have to say no to her visiting them, but you can say "No, not this weekend". If she does try to bring you back to court I am sure the mediator will completely understand that you are not trying to impede visitation, but just had something to do that specific weekend. My step daughters are 11, 10, 8, and 4 and their mother is good about seeing them on her visitation schedule. She flat out refuses to see them anymore than that, though, and it breaks my heart. No school concerts, teacher conferences, or midweek dinners. You know what is best for your family and sometimes as parents it is okay to be fiercely protective and emotional instead of objective. The courts may not agree, but hey, we're only human and can only do our best.

[mtiger]

I would suggest that, if anyone tell her no, it be Dad. And then he should file for a modification. But, depending on how the order is written (and I suspect there is one), he may find himself in contempt. Only he can decide whether it's worth that risk.

[pomplemoose]

I dont know that its worth the risk. I figure you guys are right they need to find out for themselves. We would have to get legal aid or some thing similar since we dont have money for a lawyer right now. I feel like if we modify we're really getting into a battle requiring a lawyers services. Although last change she didnt respond until the very last day of the 90 day waiting period. She has been calling non stop this week, after not calling for months would he be in contempt for not answering/returning these calls. I understand why he is avoiding them but i fell like it will just give a judge reason to side with her if he isn't more free with the phone calls. In all fairness its not that he ignores the call if he's home more like she calls when he is at work/class and after the kids are in bed like 9-930. Does he have a obligation to return the calls? It's not really described in the plan, but i think a judge would take it as being restrictive. If we were to modify does anyone know what a likely arrangement would be, just a weeks notice, limiting visitation to 1x a month or what? she only has visitation every other sat for 6hrs. so its pretty limited to start but s he only uses once every 6mths. Its not that we want to cut her out its that we want to plan our lives more than a week out and not have spontaneous oh im going to be here

[Super~Single~Mama]

I don't know what a modification would bring - but if you go for one, what I would ask for is advance notice, how far you get that notice is up in the air - 1 week, 2 weeks, etc.

I would also, since she is so inconsistent, start letting her know when you are making plans that interfere with her visitation. Ie, "You've missed visitation so many times that we have no idea when you're coming. On these days you have scheduled visitation per the court order, but we have these family plans made so we want to offer you a make-up visitation on days x, y and z." By giving her advance notice that you are canceling, and offering her make-up days your covering your own butts in case she does take you back to court. Since she is so sporadic I don't think a judge or mediator would fault you for canceling on her, so long as you offer make-up days.

Also, if you deny her, without first having informed her, your dh may get a slap on the wrist by a judge - however I don't think anything else would happen b/c she's so sporadic that increasing visitation and/or flipping custody would be a really bad idea.

[pomplemoose]

I think that the make up days would be fair. The issue being we have no real way to contact her or notify her. She calls from different phone numbers all the time (partially why DH doesn't call back you never know who you're getting) no job, no address, even the last court papers were only found through a sheriff finding her randomly. i wish she would just make up her mind be here or not none of this back and forth confusing stuff. At least DH agreed to try letting them see the school councilor a couple times to see if they'd want to talk to someone. Probably good timing if she actually shows up next Saturday. the other problem with filing the papers where do we send them, its just so unknown.

[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by pomplemoose

I think that the make up days would be fair. The issue being we have no real way to contact her or notify her. She calls from different phone numbers all the time (partially why DH doesn't call back you never know who you're getting) no job, no address, even the last court papers were only found through a sheriff finding her randomly. i wish she would just make up her mind be here or not none of this back and forth confusing stuff. At least DH agreed to try letting them see the school councilor a couple times to see if they'd want to talk to someone. Probably good timing if she actually shows up next Saturday. the other problem with filing the papers where do we send them, its just so unknown.

If you have no way of contacting her, then I highly doubt you'll be "punished" for not giving her make-up days. Your dh may get a lecture from a judge if he denies her too often, but if she's hard to reach thats her problem.

On solution to that, is that she can get an email address and use the computers at a public library - and you can contact her that way regarding the kids. Otherwise, you can't be help liable for contacting her if she has no phone number or permanent address.

Good luck!

[VocalMinority]

Can you let her have the weekend she requested, but require that she bring them back to you, during the time of your Mom's party? Many times, legally, family birthdays trump "regular" parenting time - not necessarily for the entire day, but at least for several hours, for a party. Technically, your Mom wouldn't qualify as "family" to your stepkids, but if you ever had to defend that in court I think any idiot would understand that if they spend so much more time with you than with BioMom, that their relationships with your family are legitimately familial.

Believe me, I understand the impulse to resist visits that seem timed to mess with the kids' heads right before significant events like the beginning of school. (We have a manipulative non-custodial Mom in the picture, too!) But I still think if there's not a huge, clear reason to say no ("We already had plane tickets to Hawaii for that weekend..."), you have to allow the kids the time with her that is available to them. At the end of the day, it's hard to defend (to a judge; or to the kids, when they're older) that on one hand, you and your husband think their mom should visit more; yet you don't work to accommodate her, when she does try to visit.

I also know the flip side of this. Before my husband had custody, his ex moved away with their son and every time he came to visit, she treated at it as a big, traumatic "disruption" in their son's all-important "regular routine" with her. It was clear, from her statements in court, that she truly believed the only reason my husband came to visit was to upset her and confuse DSS. In her mind, that justified giving my husband very little - or sometimes no - parenting time.

I hear that this is not your situation, nor what you and your husband are trying to do to his ex. I'm just saying there are always multiple perspectives in such situations. While your assessment of BioMom may be right on target, surely she doesn't see herself as "only coming down for her own selfish reasons". Most likely, she feels she comes as often as she can, then when she gets there, you and your husband seem to wish she hadn't come. And if she's selfish and manipulative, she won't acknowledge the reasons for that; she'll chalk it up to you guys being mean and spiteful. Also, if she's selfish and manipulative, resistance to her visits will provide her one more reason to stay on the easy road and avoid making them. Plus, her "Poor me; my ex isn't supportive of me visiting our kids" attitude will get communicated to the kids, directly or indirectly. Better to let them struggle with the unavoidable puzzle of why she makes the choices she does; than to also leave them puzzled over why you and your husband - the stable parents - would say no, when their Mom does try to visit.

[pomplemoose]

All very good points Jeannine, I think you're right there are different perspectives and I'm not seeing the picture as objectively as i could be. In the end if an aunt or uncle was visiting for a day we wouldn't say no to them, and we're not going to say no to biomom either (at least i dont think). It's just the way she goes about it, just because she cant make the hour drive often doesnt mean she couldn't make an effort to call more often. DH has on several accounts said this day at this time is always good for us, if there's another day/time thats better for you we can try to work it out. She can't commit to that. She does spend most of the visit trying to make DH and I seem sneaky and we dont want to be that way. I guess this Saturday will have to come and i'll spend the day to myself, thats always nice right? Its just hard to see her come and go as she pleases with no real responsibility I'm really worried about how they will react to seeing her 8mths pregnant, they already feel so rejected and now im sure feeling replaced will come up too since she chose to have this baby all the time and hardly ever have them.

[LionessMom]

my DSDs mom is also mostly absent. she has lost custody of her other 2 kids too though. and they all live with their seperate dads. usually she makes sure she always has her visit but this sun came and went with no word. i had plans so i left to do them. with ALL my kids. DH had to work. we have 3 different phones and not a single one of them had a voicemail. sigh. i know how you feel. it is hard to let them figure it out themselves. to see their hurt and know they are let down. but if you step in in any way they side with them. i have decided to get DSD into a therapist to help her deal with her emotins surrounding her mom. she also had a new baby after her first 2 were taken away and my dsd asked all the time why baby got to live with her mom but not her. baby was taken away at 5 mo old. it is hard for those kids and it pisses me off bc their parent is doing it to them.

[pomplemoose]

Now shes got a lawyer

EX called DH today to tell him that he better do what she wants because shes got a lawyer(legal aid) telling her that she'll get more custody if they go to court. I know it doesn't really hold ground but it still racks my nerves. True DH has not bee returning her phone calls as of late but we are very busy and he has continually asked that she set up a time or two each week to speak to the kids. Today was the first time she agreed to that. She claims that shes "got her life together" that she "deserves" more. But wont any judge say she should use what shes got before asking for more? She says shes having the baby in nov and wont be able to come down here so the kids should be able to leave the county specified in the agreement to go 1.5hrs to see her after she has been so inconsistent. Last time i checked they make infant car seats right? Their agreement did say it needed to be modified in 6mths but she was never around long enough to go back to mediation so it is sorta out of date. We dont have money for a lawyer and in our county the only legal aid is for domestic violence victims. DH thinks that if she calls on the day they set up and uses all of her visitation between now and nov she might be able to take them up to her place in nov. I think he's just tired of the headache she causes, i think nov is too soon. perhaps jan. they need to go back to mediation/court but DH is scared w/o a lawyer. What do you think our legal standing is? she already tries to get the kids to lie to us and im sure she will condition them for court. ugh.

[VocalMinority]

Yuck! Sorry you're going through this.

Given what you describe, for her to spend the next 2 months (Sept. and Oct.) consistently exercising all her court-ordered visitation and consistently calling the kids every week would be a significant change from her past behavior. So she probably won't do it. In that case, it will be perfectly reasonable for your husband to tell her, "Since there's been no change in your dependability, we're not comfortable agreeing to lift the restriction and let the kids leave the county with you." After all (if my memory serves me well) there are other concerns here, right? Past drug use? You guys often don't know where she's living? If she's not getting better about what should be the most important thing in her life (staying in contact with her kids), you have no reason to believe she's gotten better about anything else, either. Sadly, the fact that she's having a baby doesn't prove she's gotten her life together.

But if she IS consistent and reliable for 2 straight months and she - RIGHT NOW, TODAY - gives you a valid address and phone number - and she's still living there and available at that number, in November...it might be OK to let the kids visit her at her own place. And if they come back spouting subversive messages she's drilled into their heads, or talking about the group of Hell's Angels that camped out on her living room floor while they were there, then you don't let them do it again.

Certainly, you're not obligated to do more than what is in your most recent court order. But if you wind up back in court someday, you want it to be clear that you guys have been reasonable about facilitating her access to the kids and that it is she - and only she - who has caused herself to be separated from them. An hour and a half drive is a pain, but it's not across the country. Yes, babies are portable, but certainly it's easier for anyone to exercise parenting time in their own home.

Is she expecting you guys to do all the driving? I'd say no to that, if I were you. It would be generous of you to offer to do half. But - especially if she's the one who moved away - I think it's fine to expect her to do all of it.

[pomplemoose]

good point there's a good chance that she wont show up and call. I suppose that would be a drastic change in her behavior but i doubt it since DSS just said at breakfast (after talking to his mom last night for the first time in a while) that he understands DH and I TOOK him away from his mom because she was doing bad things. I told him that he couldnt be there at that time because of her choices but that we didn't ever take him from her (as in not allow her to see him which im guessing is what he got told) DH and EX really seemed to get into it last night, but it always goes the same way. I would like to see her be here and told DSS that she has specific times that she is more than welcome to visit but its up to her to do it. She appears to be living with her dad, she is bring proof of her license and insurance to DH on sat and driving her dad's truck. Her father is a cop so i doubt he would let her drive his car w/o a license. DH seems to believe her dad is a good person and that if she is living with him and continues to do so that he would trust the father with the kids.I'd really like to think she's changed for both my sake and the kids but I'm just preparing for the same downfall as last time.

[VocalMinority]

A little off-topic, sorry

Originally Posted by pomplemoose

...he understands DH and I TOOK him away from his mom because she was doing bad things. I told him that he couldnt be there at that time because of her choices but that we didn't ever take him from her (as in not allow her to see him which im guessing is what he got told)...

It sounds like you feel comfortable discussing this with your step-kids. Or did you just store away a good answer, for the moment you needed it?

My 11-year-old step-son, who lives with us, doesn't mention his Mom a whole lot and he never brings up the reasons for the custody change, when he was 8. I wish he would because I'd like to know what he thinks was the reason - and have a chance to correct any misconceptions he may have. I know his Mom's story is that my husband schemed, lied and "manipulated the system" and "stole him from her" because he knew that's what would hurt her most. My husband just assumes his son knows he loves him and that he has a good sense of what really happened. But what if he doesn't? I don't feel comfortable bringing it up with DSS myself - perhaps because I haven't yet come up with an explanation that doesn't sound like I'm attacking his Mom and I don't want to engage in the same type of efforts to alienate him from her, that she used to do, with regard to DH. On the other hand, when one parent is clearly wrong, at some point shouldn't the kid know that? Isn't it confusing for a kid to see a bad example and never have anyone acknowledge that it's bad?

In short, I'm saying it's good that your husband's ex acknowledged she made mistakes. But I also like your no-nonsense clarification.