"Some do, some don't." - Page 2

[PuppyFluffer]

Yes it need time to take effect.
My friend said that none of the OBs liked doing circumcisions because it took away from other things they needed to be doing, like dealing with laboring women. She said they all just wanted to get them over with. I asked her to clarify what she meant by "immediately begin" and she said exactly that, inject and set the syringe down and start clamping, probing and cutting.
I've had lidocaine injected twice for stitches. It stings like a wasp sting for a bit before it takes effect. It's an extremely sharp feeling - sharp like getting lemon juice into a cut sort of sharp. It doesn't last too long as it begins to anesthesize the area but it's a really unpleasant thing.

[fruitful womb]

Originally Posted by PlainandTall

5. Soliciting elective surgery from women in labor is abusive and unethical.
There is an implied medical endorsement when hospital staff solicits in the course of admitting patients. The AMA circumcision policy states that a lack of information and deferral of the decision until after the birth contribute to the high rate of circumcision in America. This means that if parents were given more time and more information, fewer would circumcise their son.

I tried to get a copy of the "informed consent" when pregnant with ds#2. They wouldn't let me see it. They said "its policy that a mother can only see it right after she has given birth".

Even then, while recovering from a birth & in my case I had a very traumatic birth with ds#1, its unethical.

Its unethical, period.

[MrsJewelsRae]

Isn't it ironic that OBs often push and encourage drugs on birthing mothers, but when it comes to the newborn they circumcise w/o any pain relief at all?? WTH is wrong here!?

[knitted_in_the_wom]

Originally Posted by outlier

This quote is from the L&D nurse who taught our hospital's childbirth class, referring to anesthesia use by the doctors there who circ. This is one of the biggest hospitals in my state, too!

I've heard people in this forum claim this kind of thing goes on, but I had somehow rationalized in my mind that it must be only a few old doctors scattered around who were holding on to their archaic methods. I guess not.

This is cruelty to babies!!!

Another frustrating thing is that the two methods considered most "effective" at relieving pain during circ are dorsal nerve block and a penile ring block. The problem with both of these methods though are that they involve injecting pain meds into the penis.

Have you ever had novacaine for dental work? I'd guess injecting meds into the penis hurts worse. One of my clients who opted to have her son circed told me that she could hear him screaming from down the hall...and the most awful thing was that he didn't get the circ done that day due to some potential complications that came up--so ALL that was done was the injection of meds. And he slept for over 4 hours in a very deep sleep after the trauma of it. He had the circ done on a different day--so injection of meds all over again. I had hoped SO hard that after the first experience with the meds the parents would realize how painful it was and change their minds, but they didn't.

[Banana731]

I have a friend who is a FP, and he is against circ personally. Where he works, he has a hospital rotation weekly where he attends births in OB for the birthing FP patients. He told us at first he tried not circ, citing personal reasons (though he was given a hard time by his superiors for it). But ultimately decided to do circ if parents request it, because he realized that if he refused, someone else would and at least he knew that he was doing properly and as painlessly as possible. It was hard for him still, though. I guess I understand where he is coming from. I had never really thought about it from that kind of a perspective. I bet it's even harder for some of the nurses and assistants in similar postions to some of the pp. I mean I imagine that it's not as if a nurse can say to a doc, "hey you-should be waiting longer, using this, are hurting that baby..." you know?

[Fyrestorm]

Originally Posted by Banana731

I have a friend who is a FP, and he is against circ personally. Where he works, he has a hospital rotation weekly where he attends births in OB for the birthing FP patients. He told us at first he tried not circ, citing personal reasons (though he was given a hard time by his superiors for it). But ultimately decided to do circ if parents request it, because he realized that if he refused, someone else would and at least he knew that he was doing properly and as painlessly as possible. It was hard for him still, though. I guess I understand where he is coming from. I had never really thought about it from that kind of a perspective. I bet it's even harder for some of the nurses and assistants in similar postions to some of the pp. I mean I imagine that it's not as if a nurse can say to a doc, "hey you-should be waiting longer, using this, are hurting that baby..." you know?

No excuse...there is no right way to do a wrong thing. Period.End.Of.Story. He cuts babies for whatever reason and that makes
him just as culpable as anyone else. If doctors don't stand up for those poor helpless babies, then who will. Aren't there war criminals who used the same excuse?

[Fellow Traveler]

Originally Posted by Banana731

I have a friend who is a FP, and he is against circ personally. Where he works, he has a hospital rotation weekly where he attends births in OB for the birthing FP patients. He told us at first he tried not circ, citing personal reasons (though he was given a hard time by his superiors for it). But ultimately decided to do circ if parents request it, because he realized that if he refused, someone else would and at least he knew that he was doing properly and as painlessly as possible. It was hard for him still, though. I guess I understand where he is coming from. I had never really thought about it from that kind of a perspective. I bet it's even harder for some of the nurses and assistants in similar postions to some of the pp. I mean I imagine that it's not as if a nurse can say to a doc, "hey you-should be waiting longer, using this, are hurting that baby..." you know?

I think we need Drs like him to take a strong position and stand by his/her convictions. This doesn't stop if people keep giving into peer pressure.

[jenP]

Originally Posted by Fyrestorm

He cuts babies for whatever reason and that makes him just as culpable as anyone else. If doctors don't stand up for those poor helpless babies, then who will.

Agreed.
I've heard a number of times of doctors who are "personally opposed to circumcision" but "do it anyway, if the parents are adamant" to "make sure it is done properly." It just smacks of arrogance to me, as in "these ignorant fools can't even do a circumcision properly.. guess I'll just have to step in and do it for them."
It also smacks of the AAP's recently made-then-rescinded policy on having doctors offer to perform female genital cutting "to protect them from getting it worse" by someone else.

What would make parents think twice about circumcising their baby: a doctor who tells them, "You do realize it is non-therapeutic, and as a medical doctor I do not recommend the procedure. However, if you insist on getting it done, I will make sure your baby receives proper anesthetic, unlike some other practitioners, and it will be a better result than if an OB or resident did it."

Or, "If you want to have your baby circumcised, you will have to find another doctor. It is a non-therapeutic surgery, it is risky, it amputates healthy erogenous tissue, takes away the freedom of choice and bodily integrity from the man that your baby will grow up to be, and I simply will not perform such an unethical surgery."

Actually, the first one would actually sound reassuring to many if not most parents having their baby circumcised. Likely they would feel good knowing he was in competent hands and would receive anesthesia. They would ignore the bit about it not being medically recommended and being non-therapeutic because of course they knew that it is not for any medical purpose. It would be for "tradition" and "cultural reasons" and to "look like Dad." I mean, it would make about as much an impression as a doctor telling someone who has requested it that piercing their baby's ears was non-therapeutic. They would be like, "Of course it isn't! Could you just do it already so we can pack up and be discharged?"

But someone flatly refusing to do it, on ethical grounds? That might actually make an impression.

Jen

[ElliesMomma]

Originally Posted by PlainandTall

Circumcision is now known to have no medical value, yet doctors inexplicably offer it as a cultural service, maneuvering consent from fathers circumcised in an era predating modern respect for patient autonomy.

this is so true. in my case, and so many others that you read about on these boards, it's a circumcised father pitted against a mother who wants to keep the boy intact. and the fathers themselves were circumcised during an era in which doctors did the harm without even asking the parents for permission.

[Addie]

My nephew was circed in a well-known hospital in a major metropolitan area, and no anesthesia was used. SIL asked after he came back from the procedure, and the nurse said no, no anesthesia. SIL replied, "oh, it doesn't hurt?" The nurse, perhaps to her credit, replied, "oh, no - it hurts."

I was pregnant with DS at the time, and needless to say this solidified our decision not to circ. I also had heard that "most" circs were done with anesthesia, and was shocked to hear it laid out like that.

[brant31]

One would think a well-known hospital in a big city would be on top of the latest pain studies. OTOH, they probably are, but they may be the busiest and the most closely tied to research.

Meaning, no one has the patience for the anesthesia to fully take effect (cuts into the financial bottom line, too) and research universities and research companies come to them for pristine foreskin flesh. Anesthesia renders foreskins unsuitable.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by MrsJewelsRae

Isn't it ironic that OBs often push and encourage drugs on birthing mothers, but when it comes to the newborn they circumcise w/o any pain relief at all?? WTH is wrong here!?

Mothers with epidurals make their lives easier. Babies without pain relief make their lives easier.

[outlier]

I thought I'd give you all an update on my experience now that I've had our (beautiful and intact! ) baby boy at this hospital. By some sick cosmic joke, we of all people were assigned to stay in the room right across the hall from the "procedure" room, where all the circs take place. I tried to pretend that all the frantic crying I heard those two days after birth were from PKU tests. If I hadn't had such a long and traumatic labor, I probably would have insisted on switching rooms, but I simply didn't have the energy.

We had a very succinct post-birth sheet that listed "no circ" along with a couple other things and gave one to every nurse and doctor who came in. We were still asked multiple times if we were circing, but it was more in an "I'm too lazy to read your chart right now" kind of way than from any pressure to do it. I was hoping we'd get some kind of positive feedback from a closet intactivist, but no such luck. We made sure our babe never left our room for a second.

[K703]

Originally Posted by outlier

I thought I'd give you all an update on my experience now that I've had our (beautiful and intact! ) baby boy at this hospital. By some sick cosmic joke, we of all people were assigned to stay in the room right across the hall from the "procedure" room, where all the circs take place. I tried to pretend that all the frantic crying I heard those two days after birth were from PKU tests. If I hadn't had such a long and traumatic labor, I probably would have insisted on switching rooms, but I simply didn't have the energy.

This is the kind of situation that turned my mother into a pro-intact person (and saved me from circ). She heard horrible cries fron another baby when her first child (a girl) was born in the hospital, and turns out it was a circ. She decided that she wouldn't let any sons of hers go through that.

[emnic77]

I know that this happens in most circs, and I still get sick when it comes up. I just don't understand how anyone could think that slicing off ANYTHING from a baby doesn't hurt them. I just can't wrap my head around it. The idea of my dh as a 2 day old baby having this done to him is like a punch in the gut.



And yes, not to be all tin foil hat, but if the foreskin is being sold off to a cosmetic or pharmaceutical company (it's used in making skin graft material - google "apligraf") it can't be used if it has any sort of anesthetic in it.