Total Non-Compliance

[annakiss]

First off, we're an unschooling, unconditional parenting household. It doesn't look all bright and cheery because I am myself rather than some contrived version of the ideal mother, but I think we genuinely attempt a family-centered approach with lots of dialogue.

My older son is 8. He does not want to participate in anything at all. Not crafts that I come up with, not the garden, not our CSA, not cooking, not picking up, not anything that I can think of off hand. It's probably an exaggeration, but I am getting a little miffed that every time I ask him to do something, I get this lengthy explanation about how he shouldn't have to. The other day he told me that he shouldn't have to take the compost out because he doesn't buy the food or prepare it and put it in the compost bucket. I was all, "do you eat the food?!?!"

I try to emphasize that we all have to work together to make our lives work, that he is a participating member of this family, and that the work is just part of living and helps us get to the fun. I even tried talking about the work as fun. He told me I was probably just like him when I was little. I told him that I wasn't, that he could ask grandma if he wanted, and that it didn't matter because it made no difference as to whether or not I needed him to help out or not. I'm at the point where I'm saying that he can live on his own if he is so confident about what he should and should not participate in. Which is probably just rude.

I think part of it is this is just him. it's also just me. I talk and talk and talk. Maybe to my detriment. I'm not interested in just cleaning up after everyone though. I do not care to be a doormat. Not at all. Not even if I birthed them and brought them into this world, forcing them to be here. I additionally will be completely opposed to any advice suggesting chore charts, rewards/punishments, or scheduling.

thanks.

[mamazee]

Have you read How To Talk So Your Kids Will Listen? That book has some good suggestions for how to phrase things in cases like this. One is to use fewer words rather than more. More words is a discussion and a discussion means he has say over whether it happens. But if you stand and say "The compost!" and stand expectently watching him like you're waiting for the bus, that might get more action.

I would highly recommend that book, as that is precisely the kind of thing it talks about.

[annakiss]

I have read it, but not in awhile. I'll try the firm expetation route. thx.

[lisalu100]

How do you feel about discussing with him a day/ few days where mum ceases to do anything for him? No playing with him, no sibling intervention, no cooking/laundry etc. If he is onboard, go through with it, for as long as it takes until he admits that he needs/wants you. Then discuss teamwork again.

[philomom]

Originally Posted by annakiss

I additionally will be completely opposed to any advice suggesting chore charts, rewards/punishments, or scheduling.

So, what are you looking for here? Sympathy? A magic wand? I'm not trying to be snarky but you've out right declared that you won't make your child cooperate by reward/punishment or other means.

His behavior will not change without you making him uncomfortable enough to change. My hubby and I both believe that little hands are needed to help. All hands help make a house a home. To refuse would mean that child was isolated in their room away from family and fun stuff of any kind until they were ready to help. Chores and jobs are huge part of most people's lives. We may not like to do them... but they get done nonetheless. Those who shirk are called losers and other worse things.

[annakiss]

Well I do not believe in rewards or punishments and find them to be bizarre solutions for the Gentle Discipline forum, quite frankly. Your snarkiness is unnecessary. As is force or coercion. The first response yielded a good recommendation in changing the discussion.

I am fairly certain that even if I did become a total doormat, the kid would eventually understand the necessity of less-than-constantly-desirable work through living in the world. As an unschooler, I firmly believe in example as a solid method of learning. My attitude may need adjustment, however.

[bonamarq]

I hear your frustration and I empathize - I admire your choices even though I do not choose the same for my family....hopefully you will get more solid advice from BTDT families although from what I see here this is not entirely unusual for that age -

But I'm with you in the "let's honor your authentic self" while still being respectful of the whole family...

here is a perhaps wild suggestion to be completely dismissed if you like...

If I were you I would have a family meeting (perhaps you already do, have one more) Lay out your concerns and frustrations and let ds know that if he really wants to go that route of "me myself and I" are the only ones that I need to concern myself with, then make him fend for himself to as great an extent possible - you sort of allude to this in your post about making him live on his own - you still need to give the roof over his head but what would happen if you stopped doing anything else for him for at least a while (laundry, cooking, or going out of your way in anyway) - I personally don't know if I could stand this even for just a week and not knowing your situation or family it might be totally inappropriate????? If I ever felt pushed to this point I would probably let ds know that it wasn't a permanent thing - "let's try this for x amount of time " and come back and reassess... then discuss how we all felt living this way (I'm guessing not very good and the point is for this to be a learning experience about the importance of team work - not a snarky punishment - although it might sure seem like that when going through it -

I admittedly may be way off base and out of line (so let the flames begin) but it could prove to be a valuable lesson for the right kid/situation - others could be total disaster and only develop more resentment - which is why IF you try this I would try and have a positive family mtg first...

[mamazee]

Also, it can help to think of it as, "How do we set this up as a habit" rather than "how do I force this to happen." It's just a change in mindset, but I guess the idea is that if he doesn't get up and do it on his own, I would have him do it with me in an attempt to get him into the habit rather than just do it on my own. If he is involved in it to at least some extent often and regularly enough, it will feel normal to him and it shouldn't involve so many fights. It's just hard to start up with the "create a habit" mindset at 8.

I did it that way with my 8-year-old but I started when she was like 3 or 4. Instead of setting up a chore chart or anything, I would just say, "time to do X" and then do X with her, and eventually I could say "time to do X" and she'd just do it. But it took a long time and I started younger.

[annakiss]

Why is this forum always filled with that zing at the end that makes folks feel crummy about their past efforts, which, incidently, remain unknowns?

[texmati]

I'm confused as to why not chore charts + lots of praise? Some personalities respond better to encouraged independance rather than being told what to do.

[annakiss]

I consider charts and excessive praise to be coerced independence, not encouraged independence.

[EdnaMarie]

Playful parenting is working for us right now. Also, have you told him how you feel? Not as a punishment, just so that there's no bad stuff out there? "I feel like you are not treating me like a person, and that makes me sad."

I'm at the point where I'm saying that he can live on his own if he is so confident about what he should and should not participate in. Which is probably just rude.

I don't think it's rude. It's honest. Why should he get to be a freeloader? I told my three-year-old that she benefits from her own input, that the more we share and divide labor, the better off we all are, and if she doesn't want to share, she can do it all herself. But then we're not going to help her, either. Of course for her, that meant just making meals and doing laundry (she was not prepared to, LOL) but for an eight-year-old you could ask him to do more. Just simply, without anger, "If you're not interested in participating, then you will not benefit from our participation, either."

Now, you said you're into unconditional. I guess this is conditional. But if you're truly UNconditional, then at the end of the day, he's got a pretty nice deal here, and if it were me (I was *that* child that didn't do chores...) I just... would keep the deal. LOL. Sorry. Some people are users, and it took me a LONG time to realize why I needed to help. Like... maybe the end of adolescence? I'm not sure if you're willing to wait that long.

[GoBecGo]

In a relationship with such a power imbalance as exists between a parent and a child (however much we might not want to see or use or abuse that power, our kids would starve/freeze/die without our caring efforts) how does one ensure one is only encouraging and not coercing? What does the difference look like?

[mom2happy]

I dont have any advice, only commiseration for the fact that I also explain and talk excessively to my children. I feel they deserve the why and how of everything. I exhaust myself sometimes. It drives DH crazy. He thinks its annoying. As a child, no one ever explained anything to him. He was just told what to do.
I dont know, it just comes naturally to teach them I have to explain.
I will say though, my 7 yr old doesnt listen to me some of the time.
DH says its because I treat her like a peer and that I dont discipline her firmly.

[midnightwriter]

You mix a lot of things together. If he doesn't want to participate in crafts, that's his right, right? Are there things that he likes to do? Do you participate in them?

Do you yourself see work as fun? Do they witness you having fun with household stuff? I rarely have fun while cleaning , but I try to make it fun...I won't tell them that housework is fun, though, as it isn't true for me, most of the time.

Do you NEED his help with cooking, or you feel it is a good activity for him to be involved in? I'm sure he senses the difference.

Is there anything that relates to his life more directly? I can see an 8 year old not really seeing the connection between compost and cooked food. And then getting embarrassed and argumentative when the obvious connection is showed to him.

Do you ask him when you really need help, or is it a matter of principle that he needs to help? There was not a single instance that my kids refused to help when they saw me struggling--they'd grab the extra grocery bag out of my hand if I need to get my keys, or entertain the baby when I'm on the phone for something important, and so on. Often without asking.

When I ask for help, I do expect compliance. If their involvement is optional, I phrase the question accordingly, and I am perfectly okay with them not pitching in. We don't operate on the chores principle, so they don't have any daily tasks to complete. I probably ask them less than an average parent. But when I really need help, they are eager. They also offer their help often. Frankly, I keep declining cooking help, except from my 2 yo, as she is very insistent.

Lastly, does he see you as an authority figure? He might, despite your efforts to the contrary. You do ask him to do things, and are then unhappy when he doesn't, even if it simply crafts. In his mind you are the boss. Considering you do expose him to political activism, he might be modelling you in his resistance to authority.

I also think that this might be a phase.

[mamazee]

Originally Posted by annakiss

Why is this forum always filled with that zing at the end that makes folks feel crummy about their past efforts, which, incidently, remain unknowns?

I'm sorry. I didnt' mean it that way. I have a bad headache and I'm obviously having trouble wording things well. I didn't mean you hadn't done that at all, just taht efforts in that regard don't work as well at 8, and when I've tried to create a habit with my 8-year-old at her age now, it doesn't go nearly as well as those things I started with her when she was much younger.

[philomom]

Originally Posted by mamazee

I did it that way with my 8-year-old but I started when she was like 3 or 4. Instead of setting up a chore chart or anything, I would just say, "time to do X" and then do X with her, and eventually I could say "time to do X" and she'd just do it. But it took a long time and I started younger.

Yep, I never did charts or sticker rewards or anything like that. But at an early age, I would yell "job" or "all hands on deck" and they come running to be helpful. My teens sometimes still wait to hear me ask for help. But when asked they pitch in without shirking or being ugly.

Oh, and I do consider time-outs to be gentle discipline. I grew up in the belt 'm and spank 'm bible belt. My kids have been spared that but I do insist on reasonable obedience to our parental authority.

Consensual living may be fine for some; but the few times I've tried it my family descends into complete chaos rather quickly. It is not a choice for us any longer.

[heartmama]

If memory serves you are an immaculate housekeeper. Sometimes, when I look at the mess that is my home, I think of you and feel a sense of awe!

So, my first thought regarding housework was that for your children it has been done for them by someone who is extraordinarily good at doing it, who does it better than 99% of the people I know, who enjoys it and does it masterfully. I think your kids must know their help is not strictly necessary in order for the home to look incredible. All they need to do is get out of the way and watch the magic happen.

When I read your post I found myself wondering if your son is generally the type who wants to do a thing as well as others or not at all. Perhaps he knows that you are really good at keeping the home nice and is incredulous at the idea that he should get involved.

We started doing chores when ds was 7. Until then I did everything for him. Ds is an only child and at that point both his parents worked from home while he was unschooled. Even though I'm not a great housekeeper, between the two adults, it was easy to get it all done. Ds did not really NEED to help in order for the home to be nice. I began to see the downside of that approach and so we changed. The main thing was that it became a family activity. Everyone set aside time and then we made a game of it. We had little chore cards, or chore wheels, and we picked tasks and did a 'ready set go' type approach. Ds liked checking off boxes to show what he had done. I can't remember the details now. I think we had a family reward or something too. Ds did like rewards so there might have been a treat involved with this at first, I honestly can't remember. At first we just let him pick his chores and resisted the urge to 're-do' his work later. Then we would draw cards from a bag and do what task was on the card. The focus was on the importance of teamwork and how much we valued his being part of the family team. We just focused on building up that feeling for a long time.

Eventually I could just ask and he would do a chore. But for maybe a year or two he needed it to be a family event in order to get himself psyched up about it.

Also, I think children with parents who can and do get it all done without much effort, are especially prone to growing up disconnected from value of their own contribution. So, building up that sense of family, of being a team, of delegating a task to a child, and the child gradually seeing over time that this is their own domain, nobody will go back later and fix it better than they did, is important.

Hope some of that helps, maybe not?

[Ruthla]

Have you tried talking to him about how you feel when he doesn't help out? Explaining that it hurts your feelings when you refuse to help might get through to him- that cleaning up is worth it, not because having a clean house is important to HIM, but because it's important to you and he cares about you.

Sit down with him and try to brainstorm ideas about "making housework fair". Are there any chores he wouldn't mind doing, or that he'd feel good about himself if he did? Does he need you to let go of some of youre "housework perfectionism" before he'll be willing to help more? Would he be more motivated to help if you turned cleanup into a game, or if he had some kind of outside reward for helping?

I know you said you didn't want any advice about sticker charts, reward/punishment, or scheduling, but sometimes you need to re-evaluate your ideals and do what actually works for your kid, not what you'd hoped to do. I had a sticker chart for DS for a while- he earned 1 or more stickers for various household tasks, and at the end of the month (or however long it took to fill up the chart) I paid him 5 cents for each sticker on the chart.

I hated that chart. I had to keep track of all the work he did and decide how many stickers to give each job, and take time out of "real work" to put up stickers. But, when he was about 7.5 to 8.5, he needed it. He needed to see a concrete reward for each thing that he did- the weeks he did less work he felt bad that he'd done less (and earned less money) and he tried harder to do more work next time. It also helped me keep things in perspective when maybe one day he'd do practically nothing, but then the next he'd do several huge jobs and more than make up for the "lazy days."

After a while, he stopped needing the chart. It stopped working- he whined more about how many stickers he'd get for each one, and start doing some mental calculations "nah, that job isn't worth 15 cents. I won't do it." So I switched him to a straight allowance and now I tell him what needs to be done and he mostly does it.

The sticker chart helped him get into the habit of doing chores and doing them cheerfully. He just wasn't developmentally ready to do that without some kind of outside reward- but he's since outgrown that need and we're closer to how I'd always envisioned the household working.

I'm not saying that you HAVE TO do sticker charts, or that there's no other way to get kids to do chores. I just want you to open up your mind and consider all kinds of "parenting tools," even the ones you thought you'd never use. Most techniques used by "non GD parents" can be used respectfully, and sometimes are just what a child needs for a specific situation at a specific period of time.

[rainbringer]

Would it help to offer him a choice? "I need some help - would you rather take the compost out or sweep the floor?" Or maybe he needs a few minutes to finish up what he is doing and switch gears.

Maybe there is something he would like to be in charge of - keeping the books organized and dusted, changing light bulbs when they go out, meal planning or something like that?

Another thought - you are having trouble thinking of any way he helps with the household work - it might help to spend a few days really noticing anything he does that is helpful. There may be more than you think, even if it is small like putting his laundry in the clothes hamper.