Total Non-Compliance - Page 2

[Plaid Leopard]

I agree with others that this could be partly a developmental issue, as well as a personality issue.

We have struggles in our household, with some days being better than others. I do try to stress that as we are all part of the family, we all need to contribute to make things run smoothly and make the home nice for everybody. Also that it is not fair that one person does all or most of the work. I think that it is a difficult concept for some kids. My 11yo gets it but my 6yo does not. My 9yo sort of gets it. My 2yo wants to help with everything whether I want him to or not!

I also agree with Ruth that sometimes you have to explore options that are not part of your parenting philosophy. Sometimes when my kids want to watch a video or do some other activity, I ask that they do a quick clean-up or complete their chores beforehand. They usually do this quite happily. You may not like the idea of rewards, but I don't see it as totally arbitrary or coercive. In fact, I often use the same system for myself. I want to go on the computer, but I tell myself that I have to fold the laundry first, and my reward will be 15 minutes on MDC. If we want to be able to enjoy our leisure time we need to get the other stuff out of the way first.

I also expect my kids to set the table before meals, and a meal is not served until the table is ready and we have plates to eat off of and utensils to eat with. I'm happy to prepare their meals, but I am not running a restaurant. Everyone needs to pitch in and help.

My kids have also ASKED for a chore chart. They like the idea of knowing what needs to be done and when they should do it. I expect the older two to help with washing clothes, hanging them to dry , folding and putting them away, sweeping the floor, setting the table, and preparing one meal a week. Generally they will have one major chore a day. The 6yo is expected to put away his own toys, books and clothes - but we are still working on that. They don't get rewards for completing their chores, other than the satisfaction of knowing that they have helped out.

[starlein26]

Compliance implies some yielding or obedience, right? This also implies that you have expectations. Since you don't want a reward or punishment deal, how about writing down your expectations. Then having a family discussion about it, which will help him understand the familial implications. The result would be to split the list up somehow (for all members), giving him clear behavioral expectations. Within that "limit", he can choose when he completes the task (depending on imminence).

[annakiss]

Some helpful replies, thank you.

Yeah, expectation and the wish for obedience creeps in there, doesn't it? Hrm. He actually does do a lot. He puts his laundry away, his dirty laundry away, brushes his teeth, dresses himself, will take his dishes into the kitchen but so far, it's all mostly for him. We haven't seen the leap to stuff for all of us. He has never been interested in doing things together, but he was more interested a year or more ago. Dunno. Maybe his independence in age growth has made him more, well, emotionally independent and thus desirous of things that ain't got nothin' to do with us. I do really wish he would take on a job though without all the freaking attitude.

We did have a family meeting. I'm not certain it was productive. I got another book recommendation from a friend. I may try that.

[LynnS6]

Originally Posted by annakiss

Maybe his independence in age growth has made him more, well, emotionally independent and thus desirous of things that ain't got nothin' to do with us.

Or maybe he needs a real job. Something that wouldn't get done at all if he doesn't do it. This is the age that in many societies children are asked to take on real responsibilities and are seen to have some measure of responsibility and culpability. What can your son do that's needed and important? And that will be missed (but not essential) if he doesn't do it?

Or a completely different tactic: Can you make some things a family event? Every night after dinner we do 15 minutes of chores. Small amount of time. I put chores on popsicle sticks, the kids draw them out and have to do that chore. Very often they're stuck picking something up that they didn't take out. My mantra during that time has always been: I didn't ask if you made the mess, I asked you to help. We're part of a family, and that is what families do. Other people are helping keep the house clean for you, and you're helping me here."

Now clearly this is probably much more top-down than you're willing to approach things, but I think reinforcing that it takes a group effort to keep a house running might help.

Originally Posted by annakiss

I do really wish he would take on a job though without all the freaking attitude.

Sorry that's the age. Don't be afraid to call him on his attitude. I do for my kids and often ask them to rephrase. (And occasionally, they'll call me on mine.)

Originally Posted by GoBecGo

In a relationship with such a power imbalance as exists between a parent and a child (however much we might not want to see or use or abuse that power, our kids would starve/freeze/die without our caring efforts) how does one ensure one is only encouraging and not coercing? What does the difference look like?

I wonder about this too, and I wonder if your son is getting old enough to recognize the power imbalance? Is it really possible to be older, more competent and have control over the family resources and not be coercive? Is your son reacting to that?

These are genuine questions. I'm not trying to put your method down (though I will say I can't parent this way). But I have to think that unschooling and non-coercive parenting has got to look very different at different ages. Has your son moved onto a different developmental stage?

Originally Posted by Ruthla

sometimes you need to re-evaluate your ideals and do what actually works for your kid, not what you'd hoped to do.

I agree wholeheartedly. I too don't like rewards. Guess what? I've got a child who was highly motivated by them. I've used them sparingly and for things that I needed to change (toileting only actually). But without that, I swear I'd be still wiping my 9 year old's bottom!

[amberskyfire]

How do you feel about allowing him to earn his own money? I know you don't particularly believe in rewards, but I always saw chore money as less of a reward and more of a tool to allow kids of a certain age to feel proud and responsible for the things that they do.

I didn't use allowance with my stepdaughter. I don't even like the word, actually. It has very strong overtones of control. At around six and older, kids like to be able to have goals that they feel are beneficial either for emotional or physical reasons. Earning money in our house is one way I do that. I personally feel that it teaches children responsibility as well as pride for their work and the value of money. For children who are not old enough to have a job, not having money to be able to get the things that they want can be frustrating, especially when they see their parents just walk into a store and (in their mind, at least) just get whatever they want whenever they want it.

What I did was make a list of chores which I framed and hung in the kitchen. Next to each chore, I put a price. For example, $.10 for feeding the cat, $.25 for wiping down the counter, $2 for scrubbing the bathtub, $.75 for vacuuming the living room, etc.

The chores were not mandatory, but I refused to buy things (except for birthdays and Christmas) she asked for or give money to my DSD for no reason. She had to earn her money. The way I see it, I go to work to earn the money I need to get the things I want. If I don't go to work, I don't get my paycheck. It's the same in our house. If you don't want to do your chores, fine. You won't earn any money. You won't get what you want.

It was a really big motivator for my DSD and she actually got excited about doing chores. She would even ask to do extra things so that she could afford certain things that she wanted. She was proud of doing a good job and she was proud of the money that she earned. It taught her the value of money and got her interested in saving.

I guess some people see it as a reward, but I see it more like having a job and feeling grown-up and responsible. You do a good job, you earn something for yourself. For the parent, doing the chore is rewarding. You clean the living room and you feel really good about it because your house looks nice. A child does not have the same feeling of pride from having done a mandatory chore, so it isn't the same for them. I personally feel that they need to find some way to be proud of what they have done in order to learn from the experience. Being proud of just having a clean living room comes when they get older and have a space of their own.

So, to simplify, this is how I personally feel (and everybody feels differently) how kids see it from their point of view.

CHILD DOES NOT EARN THEIR OWN MONEY
- parents make all decisions and I feel powerless
- parents can choose whether or not to do a chore but I have no choice
- I have no control over myself and what I do
- I have no physical or emotional positives for doing the chore, unlike parents
- I am being told responsibility, but not feeling it

CHILD EARNS THEIR OWN MONEY
- I feel as though I have control over myself
- I feel as though I can make my own decisions which makes me feel positive about making the right choice
- I am able to get my own money for the things I want without having to ask and be denied
- I feel personal pride for what I have accomplished
- I have a choice of chores I would most like to do

[Violet2]

What about simply saying "I need help making dinner, how do you want to help me? This is what needs to be done; abc, which would you like to do?"

And if he balks.

"Do you want to eat?"

And if he says yes, then urge him to help. "I can't do this by myself. I really need your help. Is there some reason why you won't help me?"

If he defiantly says no, then don't feed him.

Not sure if that jives with your philosophy or not, but that would be my approach.

V

[annakiss]

I think it's so funny that I used to post here and everyone was all "that's coercive, you can't do that!" and now I'm saying I refuse to be coercive and getting challenged on the matter. Weird.

Violet, that's my attitude already. We do challenge each other. Yesterday was just one of those days.

[heartmama]

I think people try and reflect contrasting ideas when a parent states an approach is not working.

On the other hand sometimes nothing needs to change; it is a phase and will pass. In that case it can help to just put it out there, read replies, and decide whether you see anything germaine to your situation.

[annakiss]

You're right. It's all food for thought. Discipline is one of those highly contentious, deeply personal issues that I always cringe about advice on. I think most folks do.

[GoBecGo]

I'm sorry annakiss, i really wasn't trying to challenge you or be snarky, it's a genuine problem i think, what IS the difference between coercion and encouragement, and what is the difference to the CHILD? Is your son seeing your encouragement as coercive, or is what you think of as encouragement so mild he really needs something closer to what you would consider coercive to "get" what you're asking of him?

[annakiss]

Oh I think it's probably all the same stuff I always have struggled with. I don't really know how to be. I don't know what the difference between coercion and encouragement and the simple stating of my needs is. I don't think that you can necessarily tease it all out when you get right down to it, particularly if you're going to be honest without being one of those naturally gentle and always happy people. Come to think of it, I know folks like that who are way more coercive than I am.

I try to look at it all as a conversation, but certainly there's a lot of "I'm responsible for you and I need to accomplish xyz now, so get to it." I'm not sure if that can be helped. The problem is, and I'm not sure if I set this up (which is probably at least partially true) or if it's just he and I's personalities (also probably partially true), but at the end of the day, I get tired of arguing. For example, he'll want something and I'll say no. Then he'll launch into an argument about why he should get it and I'll enbd up in an argument with him about why my answer is still no. Even when I try to get out of it and say, "no is my answer. Stop asking," he doesn't. He just goes and goes.

I'm not certain that all of that is a bad thing. It's just annoying. And the attitude of 8 is difficult, but on the other hand, he was always this. It's just him. He will make a totally awesome, confident adult. He's also had a lot to struggle with and right now he has this massive piece of metal in his mouth, so I know he's sort of mildly irritated a lot.

I'm trying to think through it all and see if there is a possible solution that would work for us, but I'm really not certain that anything would change. I think that doing more focused activities together would probably help us all get along a bit better. To some degree, I should probably just let some of it go. When he does clean up, like you suggested, heartmama, I do find myself correcting as both the children inevitably leave small things out. I should just applaud the effort, I suppose. Being a hardass about it does me no real good, but creates the power struggle anew. hrm. hum.

[GoBecGo]

My DD argues with me like that too. She's only 4, but MAN can she reason! Recently i've been writing "no" on a piece of paper and giving it to her and telling her she can go on saying why i should say yes, but this is my final answer. It sometimes reduces the arguing, but then i cease engaging with it after the paper is handed over. I can only imagine how much harder 8 is going to be by comparison.

I too think my kid is going to be a GREAT adult, but getting her there is already wearing me thin.

You could roll your correction and praise into one? - "wow, this place looks great now you're almost done, just those few cars/paintbrushes/whatevers to go!"?

[EdnaMarie]

now I'm saying I refuse to be coercive and getting challenged on the matter. Weird.

I hope my post didn't come across as challenging you. I really wanted to do total non-coerscion thinking it might solve some problems we were having with rewards (we got to rewards for a reason, though). I just did not find anything, hear any suggestion, that we hadn't tried.

FWIW I don't think chore charts are coerscive, though. I have a day planner that I fill out in advance. So does DH. It's not coerscion. We like reminders and to be able to tick things off when we're done. At least, I do. I don't know if "enjoy" describes how he feels, LOL. Your son is old enough to make his own to-do list... can you dole out chores in a family meeting and he makes his own to-do list to put on the fridge?

[puddle]

This sort of reminds me of a thread a little while back in Parents as Partners. A wife was frustrated and upset because her DH wasn't helping out enough around the house. Your situation seems similar. Basically, it sounds like you want him to want to do what you want him to do, without a need to push, reward or praise. The problem is that you are raising an independent little boy with his own independent thoughts. You don't want the same things and you don't have the same internal rewards. If a clean house isn't important to him, then you will never convince him to clean the house just for the sake of having a clean house. That's just a lower priority for some people (like me!) and that's okay. So if he's going to clean up for you, then he's going to be cleaning up FOR YOU. That may be his only motivation. So maybe you can communicate to him that this is for you, a favor for you, and then communicate your appreciation when he does it. I guess I feel like there's a difference between praise (Good boy! You did what I asked!) and appreciation (It makes me feel so good when you clean up! Thank you!). Cleaning is not one of my strong points, and I am much more responsive to my DH when he appreciates my efforts than when he criticizes them, because really the main reason I am making the effort at all is for him.

[nina_yyc]

I don't have an 8yo so feel free to ignore, but I'm wondering if there is something you can do to make him feel more invested in the running of the household. Is he being asked to do boring chores without having any say in the fun decision-making type chores? For me personally I'm a lot more interested in cooking if I get to decide what to make. I'm a lot more interested in tidying if it's a room I decorated and that I take pride in. Just thinking you could might be able to adapt this idea in an age appropriate way.

[LynnS6]

Originally Posted by annakiss

For example, he'll want something and I'll say no. Then he'll launch into an argument about why he should get it and I'll enbd up in an argument with him about why my answer is still no. Even when I try to get out of it and say, "no is my answer. Stop asking," he doesn't. He just goes and goes.

A thought for this issue: What if you told him: I need not to talk about this right now. If you're willing to write your reasons out clearly so I can read them, I'll be willing to read and discuss them in an hour. My answer will still probably be no, but you can try to be as persuasive as you can."

It might not work for long, but it might really help him hone his argumentation skills!

Also, if he's a verbal processor, he may need to talk/write about these issues to work through them. I'm related to several of those, and as an introvert, I find them highly annoying. They're not intentionally annoying me, it's just that when I'm done with an issue, I.am.done.

Originally Posted by annakiss

When he does clean up, like you suggested, heartmama, I do find myself correcting as both the children inevitably leave small things out. I should just applaud the effort, I suppose. Being a hardass about it does me no real good, but creates the power struggle anew. hrm. hum.

My mom had to teach my dad to accept less than perfection when the kids were helping. She pointed out to him that if he directed each and every movement (a) they weren't going to learn how to do it themselves and (b) it was going to tick them off so they didn't want to help. It was really really hard for my dad to let go, and he didn't always succeed. But I do have fond memories of helping him roof the garage and paint the house, so he must have come a long ways by the time I got there.

[lucysmom]

Originally Posted by puddle

This sort of reminds me of a thread a little while back in Parents as Partners. A wife was frustrated and upset because her DH wasn't helping out enough around the house. Your situation seems similar. Basically, it sounds like you want him to want to do what you want him to do, without a need to push, reward or praise. The problem is that you are raising an independent little boy with his own independent thoughts. You don't want the same things and you don't have the same internal rewards. If a clean house isn't important to him, then you will never convince him to clean the house just for the sake of having a clean house. That's just a lower priority for some people (like me!) and that's okay. So if he's going to clean up for you, then he's going to be cleaning up FOR YOU. That may be his only motivation. So maybe you can communicate to him that this is for you, a favor for you, and then communicate your appreciation when he does it. I guess I feel like there's a difference between praise (Good boy! You did what I asked!) and appreciation (It makes me feel so good when you clean up! Thank you!). Cleaning is not one of my strong points, and I am much more responsive to my DH when he appreciates my efforts than when he criticizes them, because really the main reason I am making the effort at all is for him.

This seems very insightful.