Being a good friend to moms of "spirited"/"spoiled kids

[swd12422]

My son is almost 3, and a handful. But I don't think he really falls into the realm of "spirited," at least not to the degree that most mamas here describe.

My BFF has a daughter 6 months younger than DS and she is DEFINITELY spirited. She has her own mind, and has always let everyone know it, from day one. The trouble is, she is also "spoiled," to use my friend's own term. Example of what I mean by that (and please don't take offense, it's not a judgment, it's the word my friend used): They're in Target. DD refuses (as always) to get into the cart. BFF has to physically wrestle her into the cart despite having a horrible back/neck issue which ends up being exacerbated by the struggle. DD shrieks her way through the entire shopping trip, for one reason or another. (Wants to get out of the cart, wants candy, wants to hold something they're not even buying, etc.) DD sees toys and starts shrieking that she wants one. BFF buys her one to shut her up for the 5 minutes they have left in the store to check out.

I don't say a word. It's not how I do things, but I'm very strict and also intolerant of shrieking, so I don't reward it. But when BFF starts venting about it, and telling stories like that, ending with, "I don't know what we're doing wrong." I feel like telling her exactly what I think she's doing wrong.

So, I ask you parents of spirited kids, what do you want your friend to say to you when you vent? I can't say I understand, b/c my son is not quite that spirited. I don't get the full effect of living with it 24/7. I empathize. I feel for you. Do you want to hear that? Do you really want to hear that I think you're insane for buying stuff just to keep the peace for 5 minutes? Or do you want me to shrug and pat you and say you're doing everything right, that she's just spirited, which she is and would be regardless, but she is also a bit of a tyrant....?

[lilyka]

Well I am really impressed that she made it so close to the end of the trip!! It must have been embarrassing to have her dd screaming. I see some good things she did to. Being in the cart was not optional no matter how hard it was. And she did not give in on almost everything.

So I would start by congratulating my friend and encouraging her in the things she did RIGHT. Ask her if she has any tricks that help her get through the trip without giving in to the demands? What is it that makes better trips better? Maybe share some of the things that help with your son. bring a snack, go at a certain time....Sometimes I ask my friends "Do you want to know what has worked for me?" This gives them the option of saying no. Another thing I will do is save it. Then later relate one of my bad parenting experiences, acknowledge that they have way more experience and ask them for tips. "Ugh!! We had a a terrible shopping trip today. I remember the other day you were telling me about yours. What are some of your tips for when they start whining for everything on the shelf? How do you ever get out of there without giving in? " If she has had success it will encourage and remind her of her good strategies and her goals. If she hasn't the two of you can brainstorm together. yeah, my kids have taken one for the team before.....

[Norasmomma]

Well I had this kid. It is NOT easy, I also was pregnant with my son when she was 2.5, it sucked, I got more looks about what a crappy mom I was than ever got ANY praise. People looked at me pitifully

I have to say with a spirited kid everything is a battle, especially with toddlers. I wrestled my DD a 1000 and one times, carts, car seats. I walked out of the store with her screaming and my crying more than once.

My advice for her would be Raising You Spirited Child, it seriously changed my(our) life for the better. It helped me figure the why and how of what were happening.

Also does she give the child any sugar? My DD gets psycho from refined sugar, she gets super ramped and there is no reasoning or listening. Does she nap? My DD dropped any consistent napping at 18 months, so she would be in a BAD mood lots because of her lack of sleep. No advice, but with spirited kids many have sleep issues, for my DD she couldn't just turn off unless we basically ran her until she dropped.

I'm thinking this mom has heard her child described as spoiled, LOTS of people said that about my DD because of her behavior, but it was just because she wouldn't turn off about stuff and sometimes I would cave just to get her to be quiet

[PGTlatte]

Originally Posted by swd12422

So, I ask you parents of spirited kids, what do you want your friend to say to you when you vent? I can't say I understand, b/c my son is not quite that spirited. I don't get the full effect of living with it 24/7. I empathize. I feel for you. Do you want to hear that? Do you really want to hear that I think you're insane for buying stuff just to keep the peace for 5 minutes?

First, I think it is kind of you to recognize that it's an experience you haven't had and to ask what response such a parent would most appreciate.

Honestly I don't ever vent except to others who have a spirited/intense child. I can't expect anyone who hasn't been through it to understand, and it's too upsetting to me to get advice from someone who hasn't been through it. I remember the things I used to think, before life handed me not one but two spirited kids, close in age. Boy have I eaten my (unspoken) words.

I personally have never given in to buying something...but more than once, I have left my entire cart full of stuff and left the store carrying two screaming kids on my hips, while they do their best to physically hurt me and each other, with my purse hanging down my back from my throat because I have no other way to carry it; or carried one kicking, screaming, flailing child out of a large store on his side, like a log, to avoid injury, while sharply yelling at the other to follow closely behind me; while what felt like the entire store stared and pointed and I had to ignore rude comments; somehow got through the parking lot, forced one or both of them into their carseats, and driven home in tears without the stuff I intended to buy.

Shopping with some spirited kids frankly can be hell. I used to lay awake in near tears at night when I knew I had to run errands the next day, because I had so much anxiety about it. When this stress is layered on top of perhaps sleep deprivation, and perhaps 20-22 hours a day of almost constant struggle and aggravation, that goes on and on for months with no breaks...I get that sometimes a mom needs to do whatever gets her through shopping, or whatever situation is a huge challenge with her child/children.

Like I said, I don't vent to anyone who doesn't personally experience similar issues. I know it seems too extreme to believe or understand. If I do happen to have someone observe or find out about what some situations with my kids are/were like, I do not want anything other than a bit of empathy for how stressful the situation must be for me, regardless of what they might think about why the situation is what it is in the first place.

[sapphire_chan]

Why don't they make high protein/high fat, non-spoilable, snacks? I don't know if it'd help with your friend's dd, but I bet a LOT of kids would be helped in shopping if they had a little baggie of something to nosh on, and they'd be better able to self regulate emotions and behaviors with a good dose of fat and protein.

Also, if she can manage it, only go to Target when she's in a position to grab one of the $1 items from the front of the store. Let her dd play with it on the trip and just make sure to keep track of the UPC for buying it. (That said, with non-consumable stuff like a little purse or something, my dd has carried it around for most of the trip and then lost interest so I could return it to the shelf.) Best yet, if her DD has money of her own (e.g. coins are my dd's, although at this stage in her life we'll borrow them pretty freely ), and can buy the item herself instead of it always being about mommy buying it.

[VisionaryMom]

Originally Posted by swd12422

So, I ask you parents of spirited kids, what do you want your friend to say to you when you vent? I can't say I understand, b/c my son is not quite that spirited. I don't get the full effect of living with it 24/7. I empathize. I feel for you. Do you want to hear that? Do you really want to hear that I think you're insane for buying stuff just to keep the peace for 5 minutes? Or do you want me to shrug and pat you and say you're doing everything right, that she's just spirited, which she is and would be regardless, but she is also a bit of a tyrant....?

Like LaundryCrisis, I don't vent to people who don't have spirited kiddos. I have bought things before because I *had* to shop at that time, and frankly if I could buy a Hot Wheels and get to do my shopping, it was worth the $1. I wouldn't be very nice to someone who said I was "insane for buying stuff just to keep the peace for 5 minutes," to be honest. In fact, if I were in the throes of a meltdown/struggle with my child, I'd probably be pretty nasty to you. The bottom line is that if you don't have a child for whom all of life is a battle, then you shouldn't comment. You really don't get it, and there's probably nothing you can offer to your friend that she's not already heard or read.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by VisionaryMom

I wouldn't be very nice to someone who said I was "insane for buying stuff just to keep the peace for 5 minutes," to be honest.

It would be difficult, for sure. It's more a matter of going insane if we don't get that 5 minutes of peace.

[Attached2Elijah]

Originally Posted by swd12422

My son is almost 3, and a handful. But I don't think he really falls into the realm of "spirited," at least not to the degree that most mamas here describe.

My BFF has a daughter 6 months younger than DS and she is DEFINITELY spirited. She has her own mind, and has always let everyone know it, from day one. The trouble is, she is also "spoiled," to use my friend's own term. Example of what I mean by that (and please don't take offense, it's not a judgment, it's the word my friend used): They're in Target. DD refuses (as always) to get into the cart. BFF has to physically wrestle her into the cart despite having a horrible back/neck issue which ends up being exacerbated by the struggle. DD shrieks her way through the entire shopping trip, for one reason or another. (Wants to get out of the cart, wants candy, wants to hold something they're not even buying, etc.) DD sees toys and starts shrieking that she wants one. BFF buys her one to shut her up for the 5 minutes they have left in the store to check out.

I don't say a word. It's not how I do things, but I'm very strict and also intolerant of shrieking, so I don't reward it. But when BFF starts venting about it, and telling stories like that, ending with, "I don't know what we're doing wrong." I feel like telling her exactly what I think she's doing wrong.

So, I ask you parents of spirited kids, what do you want your friend to say to you when you vent? I can't say I understand, b/c my son is not quite that spirited. I don't get the full effect of living with it 24/7. I empathize. I feel for you. Do you want to hear that? Do you really want to hear that I think you're insane for buying stuff just to keep the peace for 5 minutes? Or do you want me to shrug and pat you and say you're doing everything right, that she's just spirited, which she is and would be regardless, but she is also a bit of a tyrant....?

As a mother to almost 7 year old spirited child, I just want to say THANK YOU for asking for advice on how to talk to her instead of just looking down your nose at her like most people probably do. Parenting a spirited child just makes you feel so LOST sometimes.

She probably called her spoiled because it's hard to explain a spirited child to someone you think may not understand not because she actually thinks she is. I know I rarely talk about the struggles I have with my DS because I just don't know how to explain why he is the way he is to most people.

It's incredibly hard to be judged every day about the choices we make for our spirited ones. Honestly, she probably knows that she shouldn't have given in... but sometimes, you do it anyway with a spirited one because they seriously WILL.NOT.GIVE.UP.EVER until they get what they want... should that be rewarded? No BUT sometimes to keep our own sanity, we just have to. My son is the most obstinate, persistent thing I have EVER seen and sometimes I just don't have it in me to keep fighting with him. It's embarrassing to have them throw fits but even worse, we know that instead of eventually getting better, it will probably just get worse until either a.) we finally give in or b.) something gets them off of the obsession and in a public setting, that's incredibly hard to find and usually it gets a LOT worse before it ever gets better.

I have found with my DS, if he has a little "walking around money" with him when we go to the store, it can make life SOOOO much easier. He knows he has a set amount he can spend and no more but he can get pretty much anything he wants, within reason, as long as he has enough. I know she is probably too young for this but I give my son a list of his own too and it helps for him to have a job to help me with during store trips so maybe a list with pictures or something could help her?

And honestly, for advice on what she's doing wrong... not a good idea. The "I just don't know what to do with him/her" line is more of a I need to vent/yell/scream/get it out, not really a call for advice... just admitting we're unsure of ourselves as mothers.

So just be there for her, give her a hug and simply say "I don't know how you do it but you're a great Mom and are doing the best you can with a difficult hand" and she'll be so happy to hear that... sometimes an encouraging word is enough to give us more strength to go home and fight another battle without losing it. *hugs* for being a GREAT friend!

[Hokulele]

I LOVE that you posted this! Thank you for being a good friend to a probably stressed out and exhausted mom.

I am like some of the other pps - I >never< vent to other parents unless I know their child is similar. Most other parents don't get it. And I am tired and overwhelmed and I don't need other people shaking their heads at me thinking I handle things badly.

As a rule I do NOT reward behaviour like that, but I can see exactly why that mother did buy that toy. The check out line is the *worse* part of shopping if a spirited kid doesn't want to be there. (I am sure with any kid who doesn't want to be there) And if you're up against this sort of thing day-in-day out, sometimes something has to give.

A PP mentioned bringing a snack... of COURSE I bring snacks. I do all the things suggested. I am DESPARATE for advice on how to get through things like shopping trips. I try *everything* I think maybe that's the misconseption with spirited kids - people assume the parents are just doing it wrong. But some of us have tried everything!!! I think some people just want there to be an easy fix to a child who is acting that way, and sometimes there just isn't.

And that leads me to answering your question. I think your best tactic is to be supportive. Listen and let her vent. If you have an idea (maybe getting the toy was a reward) you can ask gently ("do you think your DD ever acts that way because she knows she will get something?") then you've put your advice out there and the mother can take the advice or explain why that isn't the case with her kid... and then you can commiserate on how rough the situation is, knowing that the mom HAS tried the ideas you have. You can bring your suggestions up as if brainstorming ideas with her, and in a way that shows you just want to get to know how her child ticks because every child is different.

That mom is lucky to have you as a friend!

[Fuamami]

I would just nod and smile and talk about how she's going to go far in life, or something similar.

My third is like this, and I do sometimes make remarks to other moms, especially when we're at the park together or something and ds2 has just done something totally outrageous. I express how I'm overwhelmed not because I think they will have some words of wisdom for me, but as a way to make myself feel less embarrassed.

In fact, I will sometimes say something like, "Wow, ds2 is so much different from my other two!" to draw attention to the fact that I was able to properly parent two older children.

[AbbieB]

Well, I can say for sure that well meaning advice on how to do things "better" or "right" or "You know when my kid does XYZ I just do this..." would be the WRONG thing to say.

I think saying "You are going a great job" would be a nice thing to hear.

When my spirited DD was 3 things were really difficult. I coped by only going shopping when DD was rested, fed and in a good mood. I usually only did one or two stops a day. I also used a carrot, as in "When we are done doing this we will do XYZ (what ever it is that motivated DD that day.)"

There were times that things fell apart and DD would loose it in a full blown tantrum or just be loud and obnoxious the entire trip. Usually because she was hungry, tiered, or in a bad mood. I, being spirited myself, have a tendency to push limits too so sometimes I just pushed to get one last thing done and that would send DD over the edge.

The worst would be when DD would loose it because it was time to leave a park, a playdate, story time, gym class, or (oh gosh this was the worst) a birthday party. All of my mom friends were usually there, some silently judging away. Then the unhelpful advice on how to do it better would come.

I loved my friends that would wait for a moment of peace and quietly tell me that I am doing such a good job dealing with DD draining this phase, or that I have wonderful patience or that DD is such a warm, loving, fun kid. These same friends would give me a sympathetic smile as I patiently waited for DD to calm down enough for me to pick her up without being pummeled and kicked.

If I vented (rare for the same reasons others have stated) they were quick to point out that there is a flip side to all of the annoying, existing, difficult behaviors. What is a maddening trait in a 3 year old can be a wonderful strength to have as an adult. And I think it's true. Yes, persistence sucks when all you want to do is get out of Target but as an adult I'm sure DD will find success at anything she puts her mind to because she does not give up!

[mamazee]

The first thing I'd say is to try not to judge her decisions based on your experiences. She has a bad back, her kid was acting up, she was trying to lift her into the cart which is hard on a back anyway, and she had someone (you) with her? I'd cut her some slack on buying the toy. Sometimes you have to muddle through as best you can with a spirited kid, and maybe that was what felt like it would get her through best. I occasionally did that with my spirited kid, and at 8 she isn't spoiled and doesn't expect toys when we go out, so in my experience I'll say it doesn't ruin them or create long lasting problems. I don't think I'd give my younger one a toy if she was having a fit, but then she so seldom gets upset it's easy to avoid those instances. The older one was almost always in a fit. And I don't buy into the idea that you are rewarding bad behavior if you ever do anything nice when they're being less than perfect anyway. I just don't think it's such a big deal, and I'd almost never have been able to do anything or get anything for my older child if I'd had that rule, because she was so frequently having a fit, moving toward a fit, or getting over a fit. I think expressing unconditional love through the tantrum and helping a child get past the need for tantrums is the way to deal with them, not avoidance of toys.

And I think you're right to not tell her "what she's doing wrong." It sounds like she's doing the best she can.

[4evermom]

Offering to babysit when she needs to shop might be the most helpful thing.

I just stayed out of stores with ds as much as possible...

[VisionaryMom]

Originally Posted by Attached2Elijah

It's incredibly hard to be judged every day about the choices we make for our spirited ones. Honestly, she probably knows that she shouldn't have given in... but sometimes, you do it anyway with a spirited one because they seriously WILL.NOT.GIVE.UP.EVER until they get what they want... should that be rewarded? No

I don't know. I get what you're saying, and I think we (culturally speaking) generally view this as tantrum = punishment needed. At the same time, I admire this kind of ability to be hyper-focused on what one wants. It's kind of like redirection, which never worked for either of my children all that well. With DS in particular, you could never turn him away and draw his attention to something else, and I actually find that a good thing.

I often find it...odd when kids are so easily led astray from what interested them. I have far fewer concerns about DS giving in to peer pressure, for example, than I do with DD. He's more likely to be the one leading the pack right now, and because he's so stubborn and insistent, other kids see that as confidence and listen to him readily. Of course, I can look at this all now that he's 5 when it's much better than 2 years ago.

Originally Posted by Hokulele

The check out line is the *worse* part of shopping if a spirited kid doesn't want to be there. (I am sure with any kid who doesn't want to be there) And if you're up against this sort of thing day-in-day out, sometimes something has to give.

Goodness, I hate checkout lines and also banks, grocery stores, etc. that give out popcorn, cookies, suckers, and other junk. It bothers me enough that I've complained about it to managers because I know they think they're being great so Mom will spend more money because the kids have a sucker. I don't allow my kids to have the suckers, and I used to have to battle with DS at every single stop that he couldn't have whatever it was. Even if I compromised and told him that he could choose 1 place to get the treat, he still complained at all of the rest.

We used to go to a local hardware store, but they had this giant bin of $4 wooden cars at the checkout, and I stopped going to avoid the argument. I actually told them the last time I was there that I wasn't coming back because it wasn't worth it that they'd set up parents to be the bad guys. At least candy bars and chewing hum are usable by adults too, but when you put toys at the checkout...

Originally Posted by Hokulele

A PP mentioned bringing a snack... of COURSE I bring snacks. I do all the things suggested. I am DESPARATE for advice on how to get through things like shopping trips. I try *everything* I think maybe that's the misconseption with spirited kids - people assume the parents are just doing it wrong. But some of us have tried everything!!! I think some people just want there to be an easy fix to a child who is acting that way, and sometimes there just isn't.

Yep, I agree. I think on one side you have the "just spank him" group of people, and we all agree that's a quick fix effort. OTOH, though, there's the "just make sure he's had a snack and a nap," which is a similar quick fix for spirited kids. Even giving DS a snack in the store - which I *swore* I'd never, ever do - meant he may settle down until he was done with his snack. After that, it was a crap shoot.

TBF, though, now that DS is a bit older, he's a joy. He's still intense, but I find him extremely helpful. He actually has a lot of great suggestions, and I think it's in part because he's spent 5 years observing and thinking about how we're screwing up. He actually started telling us we were ruining his life when he was 3! Now he just makes a suggestion and moves on.

Originally Posted by Fuamami

In fact, I will sometimes say something like, "Wow, ds2 is so much different from my other two!" to draw attention to the fact that I was able to properly parent two older children.

My MIL talks about being smug about their parenting before my husband was born because his sisters were generally easy. She always says that their misconception was that they were doing something right, but once they had DH, they realized nope, wasn't so much about them as the child.

[loraxc]

In the moment, give her a hug and say "Parenting is so tough sometimes--you're doing the best you can and you're a great mom" or something similar. Don't, don't, don't give her suggestions in the moment.

If at a later, neutral time she expresses frustration, you could VERY CAREFULLY try some VERY TENTATIVE suggestions.

[swd12422]

Wow, lots of good responses! Thank you!

As I said (or hoped to say) in my OP, I don't fully *KNOW* what it's like. I do see how her DD is, and can picture the scenarios pretty well when she tells me stories like that. I've seen the wrestling match that is getting her into a car seat or stroller. (I was not there that day, FTR, or of course I would have helped!)

I am not judging. I know I was thinking judgmentally when I said I wanted to tell her she was insane for buying the kid something she was screaming bloody murder for, but I think that was more of an obvious thing that (to me, an outsider) only contributes to the "problem" (of the screaming in public, reinforcing that if you scream loudly and long enough, you get a toy). Now I am seeing from some of your posts that yeah, it's not a monster you necessarily want to create by doing that, but when your child is so spirited by nature it's more of a coping mechanism than a building block for more drama. I never thought of it that way, and that's why I posted. I hope I didn't offend anyone. I certainly didn't mean to! Just my ignorance showing, which has now been corrected.

As for snacks, the kid is never without a snack and juice. The snack cup 99% of the time that I see her is whole grain Goldfish crackers. I don't know if they have anything in them that could affect behavior/mood. The juice is already-diluted-in-the-bottle apple juice that BFF dilutes even further, so I doubt there's much sugar in there (although I've seen some posts here and elsewhere about just how sensitive some kids are to certain foods).

In a neutral moment, I did suggest the natural consequence of fighting (to the point of biting and scratching Mommy) the car seat is to not go anywhere, including our playdate. I told her I wouldn't be upset if she needed to cancel once or twice at the last minute, just to see if DD would "get it" and stop fighting. I worry so much about her back/neck issues, and just can't see how she deals with all of that every day. She didn't respond positively or negatively, just "okay." I don't know if she feels that would be harsh, or whether she doesn't want to do it b/c SHE really wants to come over, or if she's planning to do it next time. I think I'm going to stop there with the suggestions, neutral or not...

And yeah, I do realize that a lot of it is the child's nature, not the parenting, but I think you all would agree that "good parenting" tactics that work with one child may not work with another, and the other child deserves alternative "good parenting" tactics that work for him/her. I'm just wondering if there's a way to help her find them, to make her daughter happier, and to make her own job easier. (I will definitely recommend the book. I started reading it, but had to return it to the library... I did see that it talks about using positive terms to describe personailty traits, and we definitely do that. We have talked many times about how her strong sense of independence will take her far in life, and that we know she won't be one of those silly teenage girls who blindly follow their friends w/o thinking about what they really want to do. She'll be the leader of the pack.) And no, I never take credit for how well my son behaves in public. I know it's his nature and not anything I've done!

Thank you all for your insight. I have told her I think she's an amazing mom, but I hesitate to continue saying things like that b/c I feel like sometimes there might be an undertone of "Look at all you have to deal with. You're so amazing that you can handle THIS child!" which of course makes it seem like DD is SO horrible, and she's not. She can be difficult. And wonderful and adorable and funny and smart and spirited. I don't want to sound like I'm pointing out how "different" her DD is. Our kids are different from each other, but that doesn't mean it has to be a stigma. (I'm terrible at choosing my words sometimes, if my posts haven't clued you into that already. I know that, and I'm trying not to dig myself a deeper hole and cause hurt feelings. I hope I'm getting across what I mean....)

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by swd12422

I am not judging. I know I was thinking judgmentally when I said I wanted to tell her she was insane for buying the kid something she was screaming bloody murder for, but I think that was more of an obvious thing that (to me, an outsider) only contributes to the "problem" (of the screaming in public, reinforcing that if you scream loudly and long enough, you get a toy). Now I am seeing from some of your posts that yeah, it's not a monster you necessarily want to create by doing that, but when your child is so spirited by nature it's more of a coping mechanism than a building block for more drama. I never thought of it that way, and that's why I posted. I hope I didn't offend anyone. I certainly didn't mean to! Just my ignorance showing, which has now been corrected.

Aside from a brief flicker of "where do you get off calling her insane?" (which you didn't, exactly), I wasn't offended at all. I thought/think it's great that you asked for input from people who have btdt, instead of just assuming you know how it all works.

As for snacks, the kid is never without a snack and juice. The snack cup 99% of the time that I see her is whole grain Goldfish crackers. I don't know if they have anything in them that could affect behavior/mood. The juice is already-diluted-in-the-bottle apple juice that BFF dilutes even further, so I doubt there's much sugar in there (although I've seen some posts here and elsewhere about just how sensitive some kids are to certain foods).

There are worse snacks, and better ones. If there are no allergies involved, you might want to suggest some nuts. To the extent that blood sugar affected dd1 (not a lot, and she was spirited, regardless, but it did have some impact), I found that nuts helped. I'd throw a few almonds and walnuts in a snack bag, and let her eat those. This may or may not make any difference at all, but it may be worth a try for your friend.

In a neutral moment, I did suggest the natural consequence of fighting (to the point of biting and scratching Mommy) the car seat is to not go anywhere, including our playdate. I told her I wouldn't be upset if she needed to cancel once or twice at the last minute, just to see if DD would "get it" and stop fighting. I worry so much about her back/neck issues, and just can't see how she deals with all of that every day. She didn't respond positively or negatively, just "okay." I don't know if she feels that would be harsh, or whether she doesn't want to do it b/c SHE really wants to come over, or if she's planning to do it next time. I think I'm going to stop there with the suggestions, neutral or not...

I had the carseat thing with dd1. It was an absolute nightmare. I actually tried what you suggested here, but it didn't work, mostly for two reasons. 1) I really don't think she could help it (in retrospect, I realize that, as well as being spirited, dd1 had/has some degree of SPD - hyper tactile - and the feeling of the straps drove her nuts). 2) Sometimes, we really had to go somewhere, and she didn't really have a grasp of why I went back on the "no outings until you let me put you in the carseat" thing. To me, the differences between taking ds1 to the ER, going to a prenatal appointment, grocery shopping, and going to the park, were all obvious, but to dd1, they were all the same.

Thank you all for your insight. I have told her I think she's an amazing mom, but I hesitate to continue saying things like that b/c I feel like sometimes there might be an undertone of "Look at all you have to deal with. You're so amazing that you can handle THIS child!" which of course makes it seem like DD is SO horrible, and she's not. She can be difficult. And wonderful and adorable and funny and smart and spirited. I don't want to sound like I'm pointing out how "different" her DD is. Our kids are different from each other, but that doesn't mean it has to be a stigma.

FWIW, and I'm only talking for myself, I really appreciated comments of the "you're an amazing mom" variety. DD1 was really difficult to deal with (to the point that my sister once told me dd1 was harder to deal with than her twins, who weren't exactly easy, either). Dealing with dd1 made me feel like a completely incompetent mom, and the positive feedback was nice. No matter how much I knew her behaviour was out of the ordinary, it wasn't hard to fall back into a "I must be doing something wrong" mindset.

[claras_mom]

Originally Posted by swd12422

In a neutral moment, I did suggest the natural consequence of fighting (to the point of biting and scratching Mommy) the car seat is to not go anywhere, including our playdate. I told her I wouldn't be upset if she needed to cancel once or twice at the last minute, just to see if DD would "get it" and stop fighting. I worry so much about her back/neck issues, and just can't see how she deals with all of that every day. She didn't respond positively or negatively, just "okay." I don't know if she feels that would be harsh, or whether she doesn't want to do it b/c SHE really wants to come over, or if she's planning to do it next time. I think I'm going to stop there with the suggestions, neutral or not...

I hope you said this bolded bit.

And yeah, I do realize that a lot of it is the child's nature, not the parenting, but I think you all would agree that "good parenting" tactics that work with one child may not work with another, and the other child deserves alternative "good parenting" tactics that work for him/her. I'm just wondering if there's a way to help her find them, to make her daughter happier, and to make her own job easier.

One of the most maddening moments I've had with a very good friend of mine, whose daughter is a young adult but was apparently much like dd1 in her childhood, was the suggestion of things that had worked for her daughter. Or things she wished she'd done differently (with the implication that I should learn from her mistakes or something). Because it just wasn't helpful and in this particular context even less helpful, because it meant that my friend wasn't focussed on the present, on the child at hand so to speak. It's gotten better. They have a really strong bond that's based entirely on who dd1 is, my friend has developed her own ways of interacting with my wild girl that are entirely hers, and dd is old enough now that they can even have playdates together. My friend would clobber me if I called her a surrogate grandparent--she's older than I am, but not old enough for that--but it's definitely an extended family kind of relationship.

Dh and I have had to find the particular set of parenting strategies that work for dd1. I might add that dh's are different in some cases than mine. What I need from my friends is support, offers of babysitting, and invitations to coffee without my kid.

[Attached2Elijah]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride

FWIW, and I'm only talking for myself, I really appreciated comments of the "you're an amazing mom" variety. DD1 was really difficult to deal with (to the point that my sister once told me dd1 was harder to deal with than her twins, who weren't exactly easy, either). Dealing with dd1 made me feel like a completely incompetent mom, and the positive feedback was nice. No matter how much I knew her behaviour was out of the ordinary, it wasn't hard to fall back into a "I must be doing something wrong" mindset.

Agree 100%!!! If someone said those things over and over to me about my DD, it would be a different story. I wouldn't understand WHY they kept saying that because well, she's easy. She's laid back and basically REALLY easy to parent. However, when I am told that about my DS (even repeatedly) it makes me feel like "Okay, someone else sees that this is hard and I am doing the best I can." You just feel at a loss with them sometimes... like everything you do is the wrong thing. That no matter how gentle, caring or loving you are, it's not enough. They still get angry, they still get obstinate and they still fight you over everything. So an encouraging word just keeps us going when it comes to that child... but I can understand why you (OP) would feel like it seems like you are making it seem like DD is a monster when you have a more mild-mannered child BUT I'm betting the encouraging words help more then you know.

As for her just saying "okay" to your suggestion of staying home... unfortunately, she probably wasn't real receptive to that. Staying home when they act that way would mean you stay home ALL the time. When DS was young, we used the "we just won't go" thing and well, I can't even count how many times I or my husband had to stay home with DS and not get to do things WE wanted to do more then DS. However, if I could find a babysitter, you better believe I did, lol. Unfortunately the consequences I would use for my DD and step-kids just don't have the same effect on DS. He never cared if we stayed home... it would upset him in the moment but the next time we tried again, it was the same old story. He just doesn't GET the consequences we give him. I'm not sure if he's not capable of understanding or what but it doesn't matter how many times we give him the not-going consequence, he doesn't understand that it will keep happening until he quits acting like that... he just keeps doing it over and over and over. So far, I still don't have an answer to what does work... Having a spirited child, I feel more and more lost the older he gets but I never quit seeking answers to help him. So just keep encouraging her and let her know she's doing a great job, despite feeling lost.

[Hokulele]

OP, I love you, will you be my friend?

Originally Posted by swd12422

I have told her I think she's an amazing mom, but I hesitate to continue saying things like that b/c I feel like sometimes there might be an undertone of "Look at all you have to deal with. You're so amazing that you can handle THIS child!" which of course makes it seem like DD is SO horrible, and she's not. She can be difficult. And wonderful and adorable and funny and smart and spirited.

I totally get what you are saying. But I think it is ok to tell her she is amazing as long as it is clear in your interactions that you 1. do love her child and 2. understand it isn't the child's "fault" either. You could also say things like what a great job the child is doing when things are going smoothly, because you know how rough it is for the child too. (Sorry, can't remember if it is a boy or girl.) I can't stand that feeling of people thinking my DD is being "bad" she can't control it - if she could, she WOULD!!

Also, maybe this was mentioned, maybe your friend already has it, but Raising Your Spirited Child is like the bible for me. You could give it to her, and maybe even just read the first few pages yourself before you give it to her. The way these children are described in the book is so loving. There is no tone of anyone (parent or child) doing anything wrong. So once you know the tone of the book, it might be easy to hand it to her while knowing what to say that doesn't sound like "you're a bad mom, you need this book."

Sorry, I am SO not doing a good job of expressing myself, but do I make sense here? On behalf of your friend, thank you for taking the time and thought to talk about this!!! Most of the time "spirited" is like our dirty little secret that we hope outsiders don't notice.