I quit EC!

[sgmom]

Okay, not really. But my 23 month old is DRIVING ME CRAZY. She's done an almost complete regression, and is now completely refusing the potty if it's not on her terms. Furthermore, she'll make a BIG fuss when we ask her if she would sit on it, then she'll take a few steps away from it and pee right there on the floor.

This is a child who's been on a potty, on an almost full time basis since 4 months old. We've gone from almost no misses to back to almost no catches. And now, what looks like, deliberate misses. There's been a lot going on in the past several months, but it's not like she doesn't know what the potty is all about, or is unable to recognize her body's way of saying that it needs to go. We DID go through several months were I thought her graduation was JUST around the corner.

WHAT am I missing??

[yamilee21]

Sounds a lot like my daughter... started at 9 days, did very well until about 13-14 months, when she started walking. Has been haphazard ever since, and in fact recently got worse than ever, kicking potties away to deliberately urinate (or more) on the floor. BUT, all of a sudden, the past two days she has been extremely consistent with potty/toilet usage. I'm just watching with no expectations, not even daring to hope. They do go through phases, and all we can do is remember that they are still communicating (because kicking potties and slamming toilet lids closed is communication), and that the Communication part of EC is just as important as the Elimination into the proper receptacle.

[LCBMAX]

Is it possible that you just got yourself a 2 year old? Ever since my son turned 2, very few of the old tricks/ habits work. Some new ones that have worked for us:

- Me giving up - I keep us in an area or outside that cleans up easily, and I absolutely don't offer or discuss toileting all day. The old favorite bblp is nearby, so is a less loved potty that suddenly sometimes gains affection, and the stool is ready in the bathroom. When he's dressed, he's wearing trainers and if there's a miss in the trainers, I change him with the bare minimum of discussion. If there's rebellious looking playing with the toilets, I only intervene if fingers are going to get pinched or something.

- Getting creative about where and how I offer. Pants and underwear all the way off first sometimes is necessary, and separating that undressing from the offering, so they don't get negatively associated. Find a fun tree to pee near, a special plant that needs "watering." The bathtub, and the ducky appliques that want to get wet can be inspiring. If you're in an apartment, you could even put a potty bowl in a planter and add a plastic aquarium plant and make it really silly.

- Mama demos sometimes! If we're outside at home, I get him excited to see if my pee makes mud or bubbles. Then he wants to try too.

- Playdates with other kids who are fully graduated, and lots of fluids. A private agreement with their moms to have the potties in full view.

- Avoid the power struggle. This is one that you'll never win. Pretend as best you can that you don't care. Then it becomes her choice and she can do it "all by self."

Most of all, let it be what it is! Remember that it's about communication, and a 2 yo is in the midst of (another!) huuuuuuge explosion of growth and relationship to the world. How wonderful that your kid feels free to express control of her world where she can! Whatever "her terms" are, can you try to go with them? I only like to pee and poop on my terms too...

[sgmom]

Thanks for your kind words.

The reason I'm so frustrated is because I've spent so much energy trying to "communicate", and as all little ones will do, she's gone back and forth from days with no catches, to days (or weeks) with no misses. But over the past couple of months, I've wondered why I've even bothered, or that just waiting to start when she turned 2 would have been much easier.

My son is 3 months old, and he's already WAY further ahead than she ever was (peeing on cue, appearing to "hold it" at times only to eliminate as soon as I offer, etc). She never did ANY of that until just a few months ago.

I know she'll get it. It just feels like I went through all of this for nothing. Disposables would have been easier. (Probably not, but you know what I mean.)

[USAmma]

It sounds like she's just 2-- if it makes you feel better my perfect EC baby potty trained at nearly age 4. Part of our problem was her personality and part of it was having a new baby in the family. Don't beat yourself up over this. Part of being a good mommy who listens to her child's cues is learning to accept that she's done with EC for now. Don't take it personally. She's just at an intense stage.

[Shanny2032]

She sounds very 2 to me! And just think what fun it would be if you were JUST now starting....every day would be this giant battle to introduce something new and she'd be fighting you every step of the way. You have laid a great foundation and she WILL come back to it. Some things I do with my 21 month old when she is tesing the limits...

- she is all about being "fast" these days - So if I say we need to go before we leave the house and she says "no" I tell her she's fast and we run to the potty. falls for it everytime

- I have really cool stuff in the bathrooms that stays there. Like letters she can look at and practice tracing

- I always try to go when I am asking her to go (and she is resisting)

- sing sing sing

-tell stories about whatever interests her at the time

[sgmom]

Some parents don't EC at all and their kids go from diapers to completion (with no accidents) within a matter of days at 18 months. Others EC from birth and still have accidents at 4.

It sometimes makes me wonder if it was all worth it.

[LCBMAX]

Probably not worth it if the goal is to be done wiping little bottoms faster. Definitely worth it for us since our goal was to make sure he knew that we were 100% available for all his needs, all the time. The same with the cosleeping and extended nursing - lots of practical and painful drawbacks for our lives as adults, but lots of benefits for our little guy's sense of security. And when he would potty strike or pee in the frying pan (yup, that happened) I decided that his need was still my priority, but that I had to do more work to understand the need in the first place. Toddlers are not the same as babies! Boy howdy, not.

Would it help to remember that you're giving her a lifelong impression of "mama's here for you" instead of a lesson in toilet behavior? And then be gentle on yourself when being there for her is hard when you have extra mess to deal with!

[sgmom]

Originally Posted by LCBMAX

Probably not worth it if the goal is to be done wiping little bottoms faster. Definitely worth it for us since our goal was to make sure he knew that we were 100% available for all his needs, all the time. The same with the cosleeping and extended nursing - lots of practical and painful drawbacks for our lives as adults, but lots of benefits for our little guy's sense of security.

My goal with an infant is to keep them clean and dry, to help them become more aware of their bodily functions, and to help them communicate the need to eliminate. With older babies or toddlers, my goal is to indeed ditch the diapers early. There are no words for my strong hatred for diapers.

EC (for me anyway) can be greatly inconvenient, but I do it because I don't want my kids to become conditioned to using diapers (then having to suddenly change the rules), and of course I also do it for the communication aspect as well. It has little to do with "being there for them", as I am there for their every other need (hunger, entertainment, support, etc). Their need to eliminate is about communication and teaching an appropriate place to go (or rather where NOT to go - ie. in their pants).

We started EC'ing our daughter at 4 months and she NEVER signaled, or pee'd on cue until close to 20 months. We did have dry days (weeks, months) with only the occasional miss per day, so you see my frustration at a complete regression when I thought we were almost at completion.

I EC'd our son from birth, and now he's just over 3 months old and will almost always eliminate on cue, and fuss when he either needs to go or has just wet his diaper. I do use disposables with him at night and during the day when I know I'll be too busy to stop to potty him, and he does okay with this.

But the difference between the two is night and day. She was always a challenge. I "quit EC", many, MANY times with her.

Would it help to remember that you're giving her a lifelong impression of "mama's here for you" instead of a lesson in toilet behavior?

Not really. LOL!!

[LCBMAX]

Aw shucks, OP, you're clearly at the end of your ec-ing-a-toddler-rope! So forget all the thoughts from before - you're right! Time to quit, or at least get a massage for mama real soon.

Good luck feeling better about whatever happens next! (and keep us posted if it doesn't drive you crazy.)

[heatherr30]

Just a thought--are you absolutely sure your DD is peeing on the floor on purpose? There is a medical condition where the bladdar muscles actually contract whenever the person tries to relax them--I had this as a preschooler probably as a result of an undiagnosed bladdar infection and I literally couldn't empty my bladder. I was in mild pain all the time from a full bladder. I don't remember having accidents--but then I was a couple years older then your DD and I pretty much went to the toilet every 5 min day and night (only to release a few drops) which alerted my mom that there was a problem. So there is a remote possibility that something medical could be going on.

Anyway you can probably tell whether she is peeing on the floor on purpose--toddler expressions are pretty easy to read! If your sure it's not a medical problem, then IMO your job as a parent is to set some limits and show her that there is something wrong with this picture of peeing on the floor. Cleaning up without complaint after her purposeful messes isn't doing her any favours in the long run, IMO. She is either testing your reaction, or just plain simply testing what it feels like to pee on the floor, and either way she needs some feedback.

I would probably assign a consequence to accidents--not anything to shame or punish her, just something to show her that there's something wrong with the picture here. Take a short time-out if you (and her) are at the end of your fuse--this could even mean letting her run off pantless for couple of minutes while you take a a deep breath or two. You need to be matter-of-fact about this so that you don't create a battle of wills. Then go and get her and clean up the mess together--encourage her to help wipe up the floor, rinse out the underpants in the sink, and choose some new undies together to put on. If she won't help at least talk her through it while she watches. So she understands that the clean-up is the result of the mess. She may enjoy the novel routine at first but it's a sure bet she's going to get tired of it fast and will not want to take time out of her play to clean up. Even if the accidents are truly accidents I think this is a great way to encourage them to keep trying. Without yelling or humiliating--all you are doing is showing them that when there is a mess you clean up, just like if you spill a drink.

Also, I think it's important to keep in mind that your DD is still really young--and even tho she may recognize when she needs to go she still can't bring herself to stop playing in time. My DD was like this, even tho my cousin's daughter had PT herself by 2 yrs. DD got better at 2 1/2 but still has occasional small "leaks" esp if she's had sugary drinks. Kids are all different. Hopefully you can find a way to make the potty fun and bribe her to sit on it--books, special potty toys, getting to push "play" on a nearby CD player after sitting down, animal friend on a neighbouring potty, etc. Of course the older they get the harder they are to trick... but it's worth a try finding out what motivates her.

[sgmom]

Thanks for your reply.

She pees every couple of hours and empties her bladder completely every time. We've even had poop misses, where she'll refuse to use the potty, then minutes later I catch her in mid squat on the other side of the room.

The reason I'm wondering what's going on is because for MONTHS (probably since she was about 16 or so months old) she has been diaper free and has been taking herself to the potty without asking.

She is now telling me when she is wet (if she's wearing a diaper), and when she does pee on the floor, we help her clean it up (we give her a cloth - she cleans as much as she can, then we clean the rest).

I don't think it's medical since she's not peeing often, and doesn't seem to be in any discomfort. And like I said, she IS starting to tell us when she needs to go (or has already went). And we respond accordingly (although often she'll tell us she needs to poop, then will not poop for several hours).

I've recently starting putting her back in gerbers (cotton waffle undies), but she doesn't seem to care if their wet, so I added an extra layer of clothing by putting on pants. She seems uncomfortable, but doesn't stop to tell me she's wet.

I'm at a loss. We were doing so good for so long, and with my new baby, and my business being so busy (I'm a WAHM), I just don't have the time right now to constantly be on her. That said, backing off doesn't seem to be working either.

Maybe it's just the age? She'll be two in a couple of weeks.

Edited to add: There have been a lot of changes in our house over the past 3 months, so I was expecting some regression. This is just a lot more than I expected, and it's not showing any signs of getting better (yet).

[lully]

It sounds like this is becoming a good way for her to get your attention with all these distractions. Maybe try taking a step back and try not to make a big fuss when there's an accident. Just remind yourself that your giving her an oppurtunity to go in the right place (even if it doesn't go in there) and one day soon she is probably just going to suddenly go from misses to graduating.

Hang in there, because it will happen! (Our DD only just learnt to 'release' on a toilet/potty last week- Hooray, and that's what I've been telling myself for months)

[zoebird]

i'm with the others that she is just two.

at two, the beginning of the sense of "will" and "i want" starts. but it's very primal, yet, and so communication needs to be body-to-body.

my son had a week where everything was communication, communication, communication. no misses. we were sure he had it, perhaps a grad! we talked about going into undies in the summer (a few months from now). this gives us time to prepare ourselves, because it's really about us. LOL

then, he started to develop will, and of course, being with others his age, that screaming thing started. so, we've been working on talking body to body instead. and using opportunities for success.

it started to manifest as "would you like to go potty?" *scream* NO! No potty! and then going in his trainer (diaper). so, we got a taste of the will bit. so, the scream is ignored, and then i say "i need to go potty! will you help me?" and then he comes up with me right away, sings the song for me (like i do for him) and he'll ask to go as soon as i'm done. and now he's back to asking to go.

he's also on the large toilet, no little potties for him. he's a big boy. lol so, that's where we are with it.

i find it helps to just keep him on the schedule, and instead of going "need to go potty?" i use "come with me" and "will you help me go potty?" and that seems to work a lot better.

and right, we completely ignore accidents. (and screaming)

[zoebird]

also, the new baby plus working is definitely part of the equation. the screaming thing that they do is also to get attention, and responding to the screaming in any way (even making a face) trains the primal brain/body that screaming "works" to get what they want.

so, by ignoring it completely (not making a face), waiting about 3-4 seconds before acting (even if it's continuing an action such as serving dinner), teaches that it does not work.

in this case, potty is taking the place of screaming. cleaning up together is an activity that she gathers your attention. your frustration with it is a reaction that gives her attention.

so, i would do (and i actually do this) is have no reaction. if she pees on the floor, you make no statement, you hand her no cloth, and you simply clean it up and then move to the next task.

secondarily, make sure that you are getting time with her one-on-one without any distractions every day, and make sure that your partner is too, and also make sure that there is family time every day where some attention is paid to her during that time.

it will sort itself within a week, likely (that's what happens here. anything like this sorts in a week if we keep to the plan).

[LCBMAX]

The latest trick at our house (going strong for EVERY at home pee for two weeks now) is for us to pee in the toilet, then we say to the ceiling "Gee, I sure hope nobody pees on top of my pee. That would be just awful! Terrible! I just don't know what I would do!" (add on the drama)
zooom! he RUNS to the toilet to pee on our pee. We keep up the silliness by pretending to cry while he's peeing, etc. The only drawback is that while he's peeing he's also cackling with joy and looking over his shoulder to see how miserable we are. Hence aiming in the direction he's looking... Oh well.

This even works when I haven't actually peed.

Using the primal needs and a toddler's love of repetition to my advantage...

[crunchynerd]

NEW BABY!!! Aha.... now it all makes perfect sense.
A new baby in the house can definitely be the reason behind all that you are going through.

My DD was 3 when DS was born. I tried, and meant well, but ended up not giving her enough of my time and attention, and I am going to try to do better by both of them this time this winter when #3 is due... but I know realistically, it's never easy for kids to go from most of my attention, to a lot less because of the demands of a new baby.

Mine are both (and we're talking nearly 3 and just turned 6!) acting like they want to nurse again, and both were weaned at 2 1/2 when I got pg with the next (couldn't get past the heebies)... and I, who never used pacifiers before, am actually considering buying one for each child, because the baby isn't even here yet, and they really want to go back to being babies in some symbolic way, and I just can't keep from having my skin crawl if I try to let them pretend to nurse (I am dried up and all).

So here I am, considering play pacifiers even though I don't believe in them generally, to help with a newly emerging need to role-play babydom, for my older kids.

And I am also remembering that right about the time they get walking, EC gets to be a giant headache unless you are in a country where children squatting and pooing on the street is acceptable, which we aren't.

So now, even though I want to EC again this time, part of me has become more aware that, first off, cloth diapers are no crime, and secondly, we can't be perfect, but if we can be sane and calm as mothers, even if we have to diaper to do it or get pacifiers to help older children act out a need to return to symbolic babyhood (and yes, they get TONS of love and cuddles so it's not a lack of genuine mothering!)... maybe that's ok?

Maybe it's ok to do whatever you need to, to keep your own family as happy as possible, even if it means abandoning ideals of some system that we all believe in?

That's the biggest lesson I am learning, at 37, as a mother of soon to be 3. That being able to have a happy, comfortable, harmonious home and family, is more important than successfully adopting every possible advantage in natural parenting from other cultures, when it's an uphill learning curve, or for whatever reason, it's not making anyone happy in your own home at the moment.

If you need validation, to give yourself a break, give her a break, and toss EC right out the window if you have to, to be a happy mama and have a happy child, I say do it.
My first child wasn't EC'd, was totally cloth diapered, and she turned out fine. It didn't harm her in the slightest.

EC is thrilling, and I am tempted to do it again this time, but also wary of the "difficult period" and wondering, since I can't let them go barebottomed in public and squat wherever they want on public streets, whether it's really worth it, to attempt to adapt it to my own culture, when we hit that hurdle. I guess I will find out when I get there, but part of me agrees with those who just say hey, cloth diapers aren't the end of the world. My friend, who does cloth but not EC, doesn't deal with any of this stress, though she does deal, calmly, with a lot of diapers AND a toddler who is now being just as annoying, screaming and writhing and resisting, when having his diaper changed.


who can tell, really, how it's going to be? All we know is, at a certain age, not easy.

Good luck finding a happy solution. You don't have to prove anything to anyone else, don't have to become an acolyte of EC... life is about having a choice, changing your mind, and doing what works out best for you and yours, in the moment.

I'm going to be trying to find that balance, too.

[sgmom]

It's just so FRUSTRATING when you spend 20 FULL months teaching an appropriate place to go, and they're still messing on the floor.

We did have a breakthrough yesterday though. She was in her room playing (bare bum) and she came running out and sat on the potty (she never runs out of her room, so I was suspicious right away). Pee'd. A few minutes later, she comes running out again (this time on her tip toes) with butt clenched. POOP!

Now she's been taking herself to the potty since she was 16 months old, but this was the first time that she was in another room, and came out to LOOK for the potty.

I've been keeping her in gerbers and pants though, so when she pees now, her whole leg/socks/everything gets wet. She can run away from a puddle on the floor, but hanging around in wet pants isn't very comfortable!

I don't think it was the new baby, but I do think that he contributed in a pretty large way. There have just been a bunch of changes, both in our world and in her development. She also had an explosion of new words (none of them clear yet, but she's definitely associations new sounds to a specific something).

Any out of the house pottying has also gone COMPLETELY out the window, and any offer to sit on the toilet almost always ends in her screaming that she doesn't want to (which I never force).

We've also gone from diapers at night to cloth (which will leak onto her jammies if she has more than one pee). Not very comfortable! We're still missing the morning pee though, as her new preference is to wake up and hang out in bed until after she pees.

Oh well.