I am going to scream if...

[blessedwithboys]

...I see one more poodle breeder brag about their brindles, phantoms, and partis and then say their dogs are "perfect in conformation".

I totally believe in rescue, but I'll never find a puppy that way, and I have to go with a puppy to introduce to my adult toy poodle. (I did foster care for a while with other adult dogs and it didn't go well. Our pack dynamics require a puppy, that's just how it is.) But I refuse to support BYBing. So I keep looking for a reputable breeder, one who competes and breeds from a long line of champions. I actually found one such breeder, who even feeds BARF, but won't ship from CA to FL.

For now, then, I am resolved to wait no matter how long it takes. I scan petfinder all the time, and occasionally I search for breeders just to torture myself by looking at the nursery pictures. You know, if someone wants to breed un-showable pet quality poodles, fine, whatever, but it just bugs me to see them being advertised as "perfect conformation" when they so obviously are not.

[SophieAnn]

Many of the best breeders don't advertise at all.

Try going to a dog show in your area, and chat up the breeders who are there showing. Also watch for a poodle booster or specialty since there would be more poodle breeders there for that type of show.

Edited to add: also try looking for a poodle club in your area for breeder referrals.

Orlando Poodle Club
Tampa Bay Poodle Club

[Ola_]

Well I suppose at least they're giving you clear warnings about what kind of a breeder they really are. It sounds very frustrating!

[blessedwithboys]

Originally Posted by SophieAnn

Many of the best breeders don't advertise at all.

So true. I worked with a local rescue group, so I know where to find the breed clubs, but I really should make a point to go to a show or two. That's great advice.

Question:

I did just find a breeder who has agreed to leave the tail intact, and also the dewclaws as long as I contractually agree to have them removed during the neutering. She wants them removed for fear of them being ripped off, and I agree it will make grooming easier, but I asked if I could wait until the neuter for the anesthesia. We're trying to work out the details of whether or not these terms are feasible, because they dock tails at 3 days, but I would have to completely trust her to pick out a puppy for me sight unseen. And I would have to pay in full within the first 3 days.

She actually doesn't agree with tail docking, and hopes it will be banned in the US as it is elsewhere, but she shows her dogs and it is considered breed standard. She has regular buyers who are owner/handlers, and they have to have a docked tail to fully evaluate the show potential of a puppy.

WWYD? Pay in full before the birth just to save a dog from being docked? Or let her dock the whole litter and then be able to choose among the puppies that are not set aside for the show ring?

[happysmileylady]

I totally believe in rescue, but I'll never find a puppy that way

I am curious as to why you think this? I have 5 pets-3 cats and 2 dogs. ALL were shelter pets. All came to us a babies. I have never had a problem finding babies at the shelter.

[blessedwithboys]

I have been looking since the summer of 2007 and have yet to find a purebred toy poodle, not likely to get above 6 or 7 lbs, in rescue. And I did foster care and worked closely with the BSR, so I would have had dibs had there been one.

[happysmileylady]

Originally Posted by blessedwithboys

I have been looking since the summer of 2007 and have yet to find a purebred toy poodle, not likely to get above 6 or 7 lbs, in rescue. And I did foster care and worked closely with the BSR, so I would have had dibs had there been one.

OOhh, yeah if you are looking for something breed specific, and purebred, yeah, that's going to be way more difficult. Both my doggies are mutts

[babygirlie]

how frustrating. I also hate breeders who advertise champion lines and have never been to a show ugh. Have you tried hoobly? I would always visit the breeder for sure though. I bought an animal online and she swore it was show quality and let's say if I brought this cat to a show I would be arrested. The cat was hideous (malnourished to literal bones with faults that disqualified her to even step inside ugh!). Took me 2 years and thousand bucks later to get 2 pounds on her skeletal frame. And I never got to go to a show with her I actually had to give this cat Big B-12 shots she was so severely anemic from being so malnourished. they couldn't even do a fecal loop! She had NO poop in her even when looked waaaay up there with their tools. So sad. I decided the cat deserved a loving family with me rather than Lord knows what was back where she came from. So oh well. Now I have a 3500$+ unshowable pet who bites my other pets b/c she's become territorial of me :/

[Oubliette8]

To be fair, Phantoms and partis are both perfectly acceptable for show in the UKC, which is just as respectable as the AKC, although somewhat smaller. You'd have to inquire as to exactly where these breeders are showing their dogs to be able to completely rule them out on those grounds.

Have you tried contacting your local kennel club? Often they know of area breeders. Or, a great way to find breeders is to attend some shows near you. Shows are pretty easy to look up on the AKC website, you can get a whole list of shows in your area fairly easily. Buy a catalog at the show (they're usually fairly cheap, unless its a big show) and it will list alll of the dogs showing, as well as the names and usually the addresses of their owners. If not, its fairly easy to find out from the kennel name. Normally I just observe at shows and make notes- especially with a grooming intensive breed like poodles the owners are likely busy or the dog is under a handler. Then I contact the owners of dogs I really liked afterward to learn more.

As far as the tail issue, I'm really not sure. I also want a breed that docks and I don't agree with docking. I think it might be better to find a breeder who just doesn't dock, which will probably be difficult unless you go overseas. Some breeders in my breed are not docking, but its also fairly new in the country, so many imports are also not docked- ie, some of the better dogs in the ring have tails. In a competitive breed like poodles, with fewer imports and undocked specimens, it might be nearly impossible to find. What
I would worry about-
A. Its nearly impossible to choose a pup on temperament at 3 days. Your older dog has issues, you have kids, you want a solid tempered dog. The ONLY criteria they would really have to go one to choose non-docked dogs is ones that don't meet the standard by color or obvious physical defect (ie, a birth defect) Which is fine because you just want a pet, but not fine because it could turn out to be a really bad match temperament wise for your family.

B. What if it doesn't work out? The breeder will then have an undocked dog that may be harder to place. What if your dog dislikes the puppy in such a manner that you cannot keep both etc?

C. For the breeder, what if none of the pups are obvious mismarks at 3 days, and they chose not to dock the puppy who turns out to be the best?

You mentioned you were looking to ship from CA to FL. Would you consider importing? Docking is illegal in many European countries. I'm not sure how much more expensive it would be to import over cross-country shipping. Of course, that still leaves you with the whole, what if it desn't work out question.

[blessedwithboys]

never heard of hoobly, will have to check that out.

i guess i should have said this one breeder advertised AKC dogs. thats why i was complaining. i dont know anything about the other clubs.

i wouldnt NOT import, i just dont know the logistics of that. i dont want the dog quarantined in a tiny crate or anything for weeks, yk?

[Oubliette8]

I also wouldn't want a tiny puppy in quarantine for weeks. I don't know much about importing, but I'm almost certain that there is no quarantine coming INTO the United States, with the exception of Hawaii. There would be a long plane flight, but it would be comparable to the trip from California. With a puppy that small, you or someone else could even allow it to ride in-cabin fairly comfortably.

[queenjane]

I'm no help with finding a breeder...but i share your irritation on the color thing. My neighbor has a really great, super friendly boxer, but i cringed when he said he had to drive to Ohio to get him, since that was the only place he could find the "super rare" black and white color. A family friend was adding a second Scottish Terrier and considered the "super rare" white one she found through a breeder. And i'll never forget seeing a Maltese at a petstore that was "special" because it was black and white.

[blessedwithboys]

You know, these color variations exist, and I guess that's totally normal. I really think it's stupid the clubs exclude certain colors/patterns. But they do, so it bugs me that someone would say "AKC parti-colored toy poodle, perfect conformation". And then spell it "party" and "confirmation" no less. LOL Just say you have a puppy for sale, don't try to market it as something it's not.

[Ola_]

Well, I think just because it's AKC registered doesn't mean they show in the AKC or anything. And those mis-spellings would make me wary too - attention to detail is a good thing IMO!

The quarantinnes you're describing are when bringing a dog to certain countries, but I don't think the US is one of them (I want to say the UK has that). Most of the time I think you just need a vet certificate of health and proof of rabies vaccine.

[SophieAnn]

Originally Posted by blessedwithboys

WWYD? Pay in full before the birth just to save a dog from being docked? Or let her dock the whole litter and then be able to choose among the puppies that are not set aside for the show ring?

Personally, I would leave it. Let the breeder dock the whole litter and then choose among the puppies that are not set aside for show. There is no way to tell personalities at 3 days old - and finding a puppy whose personality is a good fit for you and your family is MUCH more important than having a puppy with a full tail.

But.... what about the dew claws? I thought dew claws were removed at the same time as tail docking - so insisting on doing that later might mean the breeder choosing a puppy for you at 3 days old, right?

[SquishyKitty]

Look into europuppy, the dogs aren't quaratined for weeks coming into the states. You would meet the dog at the airport, go through customs, and take it home.

They don't dock in a lot of european countries.

[subtle]

So I keep looking for a reputable breeder, one who competes and breeds from a long line of champions. I actually found one such breeder, who even feeds BARF, but won't ship from CA to FL.

I am so curious as I have Poodles and live in Ca... who is the breeder?!

Have you looked from Vipoodle.org?
Have you looked on poodlesonline.com?

I understand your frustration. It took me 2 years of researching breeders to find my Mini and that was after 3 years of checking shelters and rescues for a good match (I was on the inside so had first dibs on all kinds of dogs but none worked with my persnickety Toy

[babygirlie]

You have to quarentine entering the US. It takes a few months but I think now a days they allow people to quarentine at home? I've never actually imported (all those death on airline stories phobia) and the days of traveling for the poor kit. I still think it would be much cheaper in the end to fly out and pick the pet up yourself and see the kennel and see it's clean and safe ya know? That pet I was telling about earlier... the lady gave the cat NO food or water!!! Usually people tape food to the carrier. On the other hand I've hand another shipped with pounds of food duck taped to that carrier lol and half the flight time!

[SquishyKitty]

Military families travel back and forth with their pets all the time; there are only certain places that quarantine, and the majority of them are loosening up their requirements. Nothing about even doing it at home, in most states.

Also, there are special airliners now specifically for pets, so the animals don't sit in the plan for hours like luggage, they get everything ready, then load up the pets right before the plane takes off. Much easier on the pets.

[stardogs]

Be very careful if you decide to import - there are a ton of shady places out there that are even worse puppy mills than the ones in the US and exist to take advantage of buyers from overseas!

I think finding a few shows to attend is going to be your best bet - there are sketchy breeders who show, but it's less likely and you'll get to meet people locally who can help in the search even if they don't have a litter planned themselves.