Possible child abuse/definite neglect

[sarafi]

Preface: We live overseas on a military base.

Since we have moved here about six months ago, I have been concerned with two little girls I have seen wandering the neighborhood all day/ every day. One is six and she always has her three year old sister with her.

The good: A (age 6) takes great care of her sister R (age 3). She makes sure she is ok and includes her in everything. We live on a mostly vacant cul-de-sac with a great park so they are here often.

The bad: These kids are out all day long. It is hot here. They have been here normally for three sometimes six hours without going home and I have only once seen a parent come and get them. R still wears diapers and I have had to walk her home to get a change and her mom was rude about it. I don't know their parents but have tried to formally introduce myself three times to no avail. I don't count they "hey your kid pooped her pants" as attempts at intruductions.

The older child (A) steals things: big things like bikes, books, small things like toys and then lies about it. The first time I saw her she was stealing my daughters scooter and I asked her about it and she lied. She steals or tries to steal something every time she is here, and we have a no A in the house rule because of that. Even if she isn't in the house (she sneaks, and doesn't listen when I see her and say no she usually has something in her hand/pocket that is not hers).

Today when I picked my daughter up from school A saw us coming and followed us home. She told me that her mom was shopping and that I was supposed to watch her. I do not know her mom.

I feel badly for both the girls, but I am more distrustful of A. I have tried to help them, I have read them stories outside, asked them about their hopes and dreams, played games with them and have given them water but today I think A sexually abused my 4 year-old-son in the five minutes I was inside vacuuming my area rug (a really, really small rug).

I came outside to put something in my car and saw A far away, but no Owen and just normally asked her where Owen was. She lied, shrugged. I asked again and again and again and got the same response--but she looked weird, like something had gone wrong. At that point I freaked out since he wasn't answering me and ran to look behind the play structure to find him crouching naked. At that point I realized she was wearing his clothes and so at some point was naked too.

My kids love to be naked, but they don't hide that fact and I regularly find them running naked in the yard. It's no big deal. I am also aware that curiosity is normal but coupled with A and her lying and strange parenting send up big red flags for me. I told A very clearly "you may not play with ANY of my children EVER again you need to go home now" I fully expect her to be back next week, but I am firm with this decision as she is a headache (she is actually harder to watch than my19 month old as I have to physically sit on anything I don't want her to take to get her to stop) anyway and I am horrified by the many things she did to my things today, and what I (hopefully) intercepted her doing to my child today.

I am planning on calling the Military Police tomorrow to report the neglect.

Interestingly enough, about an hour after this happened another neighbor came over to play with her three kids and I called my kids out. They all played for about an hour, and we took a walk and during that the mom apologized for leaving another playtime early when her husband came as he was angry that he "caught" her letting her kids play with A and R. They were with me, by default, when their mother drove off when I tried to bring them home one day. :-( This other mama was too polite to tell me no that day, and wanted to explain personally as A tried to strangle her eldest daughter when they where playing. Apparently all the neighbors have heard both parents screaming that "you should not have been born". :-( (But it should be said this is third hand, and this mother is not an English speaker)

I think I have learned my lesson today: I cannot fix other families and child services are there for a reason. I wish for A, R, whatever their little brothers' name is and for Owen that I would have reported them five months ago.

[RiverSky]

What a sad story! I have no advice for you though. Please update us on what the police say, if anything.

[SubliminalDarkness]

Oh, wow, that's so sad! I think it sounds like you're absolutely doing the right thing. You need to protect your home and your children.

[zebra15]

Hummmm IDK what to say...
I can see this from both sides
One I can see how you dont want your kids to play with them and thats fine and I can also see how these kids are probably wanting some friends. Maybe her mom was out shopping and told A to go to 'someones' after school. About the scooter, here kids share things at the park so possibly the family lived somewhere before where things outside were community propert even if one person brought it? Parents on my block are different about things and let kids roam for hours. Kids come over and parents dont meet. Its not how I like to do things but its how this neighborhood works . I dont like to rely on 2nd or 3rd hand info. There could be signs of neglect, or there could just be a family who lives a bit different then everyone else.

Maybe the mom isnt friendly for any number of reasons. Honestly I'm not friendly with anyone on this street nor is my child, but he is out 'roaming' the streets from time to time as kids do. Does that make me a bad parent? NO, that just makes my social circle 4 miles north/west of here right now.

[grumpybear]

Originally Posted by zebra15

Honestly I'm not friendly with anyone on this street nor is my child, but he is out 'roaming' the streets from time to time as kids do. Does that make me a bad parent? NO, that just makes my social circle 4 miles north/west of here right now.

I don't think it is the occasional roaming around that is worrisome for the OP. I think it is that plus the following:

Originally Posted by sarafi

R still wears diapers and I have had to walk her home to get a change and her mom was rude about it.

Today when I picked my daughter up from school A saw us coming and followed us home. She told me that her mom was shopping and that I was supposed to watch her. I do not know her mom.

And have those coupled with the fact that one of the kids show a blatant lack of boundaries might lead one to a reasonable conclusion that, yes, bad parenting may be occurring.

OP, sorry that you are faced with that. Hopefully a resolution will be imminent.

[Maluhia]

In addition you can report it to your ombudsman and/or key spouse because they are mandated reporters who understand the system of help out there, in case the MPs are not inclined to intervene. you are doing the right thing IMO.

[Norasmomma]

How is your son? Is he acting strangely?

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by zebra15

Maybe her mom was out shopping and told A to go to 'someones' after school.

How on earth would that work? I know half a dozen parents here that I could ask to watch my kids if I really needed to. That's not the same thing as just say "go to someone's house". What if nobody is home? At the very least, it's really inconsiderate to expect people to take responsibility for your child without even checking with them about it.

My kids roam a lot. I supervise them less than some of the other parents, because dd2 wears me out, so I stay inside with her a lot. But, a three year old being out for six hours (even with an older sibling) without a parent even once checking on them is really strange, imo...and I do think it's neglectful. At least check to make sure the child has a clean diaper, something to drink and has eaten, yk?

[LynnS6]

Please please call soon.

A may be doing a lot of things you don't like, and you certainly don't have to let her play with your children (in fact, I'd never let her around mine unwatched). BUT she's CRYING OUT for attention and help. You're right, it's more than you can give her. (And if she's 6, why isn't she in school??)

[sarafi]

Originally Posted by zebra15

Hummmm IDK what to say...
I can see this from both sides
One I can see how you dont want your kids to play with them and thats fine and I can also see how these kids are probably wanting some friends. Maybe her mom was out shopping and told A to go to 'someones' after school. About the scooter, here kids share things at the park so possibly the family lived somewhere before where things outside were community propert even if one person brought it? Parents on my block are different about things and let kids roam for hours. Kids come over and parents dont meet. Its not how I like to do things but its how this neighborhood works . I dont like to rely on 2nd or 3rd hand info. There could be signs of neglect, or there could just be a family who lives a bit different then everyone else.

Maybe the mom isnt friendly for any number of reasons. Honestly I'm not friendly with anyone on this street nor is my child, but he is out 'roaming' the streets from time to time as kids do. Does that make me a bad parent? NO, that just makes my social circle 4 miles north/west of here right now.

I hear you, and actually had the very same thoughts which is why this has gone on so long. I didn't want to report someone unless I had strong suspicions, not just a disagreement about at what age I would be ok with not seeing my kid for hours at a time.

There have just been SO MANY little things that all add up to: these girls seem to fend for themselves and I think may be not only neglected, but also abused.

The scooter thing happened as we where moving in, boxes everywhere and I was forced to lock the front door to keep A from coming inside and trying to "help" unpack. This was, again, the first time I met her and I just chalked it this up to: wow what an annoying kid, but maybe she is just really excited to have another little girl to play with. When I looked out the window a few minutes later I saw her scooting down the street with what looked like the scooter I had just locked in my yard. I popped out and asked her if she got it from our yard, she sweetly denied it and rode off. I went back to check if I was wrong and discovered that if you have really small hands you can reach through a gap in my fence and unlock it from the outside.

I have actually seen her do it once when we where coming home on our bikes and she did not hear us. She claimed she thought we were inside and ignoring the doorbell, so not this was not an innocent thing at all. This second time actually convinced my husband to fix the gate so that she can no longer sneak things out.

I thought if I just watched her better, that maybe I could handle it and maybe she just needed an adult to hang out with that cared about what happens to her. Now I see that I really can't "watch" her enough, and that what she needs is an adult that cares enough to try to get her some help.

This sucks. We saw her this morning and she looked so sad. We all said good morning, but it was awkward and just plain sad.

[Lisa1970]

I hope you report them. Maybe all the neighbors can get together and get something done. Those poor children! And never ever allow your children around them again as I suspect you are correct over the naked issue. SOMETHING is wrong there.

[choli]

Since your son is 4, maybe you could just ask him how A came to be wearing his clothes in a non leading, non accusatory way? She may have just decided to steal his clothes if he took them off.

I am all for free range kids, but this really does sound like neglect to me.

[Storm Bride]

OP: It doesn't really change much, but I will mention that it's possible she didn't sexually abuse your ds in the way you're thinking. That may have been a theft issue. You said she was wearing his clothes, so maybe she was stealing them...

I think in this case, I'd report. Things sound pretty rough, even "just" from the neglect standpoint.

[sarafi]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride

OP: It doesn't really change much, but I will mention that it's possible she didn't sexually abuse your ds in the way you're thinking. That may have been a theft issue. You said she was wearing his clothes, so maybe she was stealing them...

I think in this case, I'd report. Things sound pretty rough, even "just" from the neglect standpoint.

I really hope you are right, and they honestly where only alone for a few minutes while I vacuumed. They had been playing right outside my window in the sprinklers, and must have ran around the side when they heard me turn it on. There is a very good chance that I caught her getting ready to take off for home with his clothes and he says they where playing dress up.

Update: I did call this morning both to the military police and to Family Advocacy. I reported what I have seen and suspect but left out the naked issue as my husband travels a lot and I do not want A's parents to know I was the one who turned them in.

School just started this week, and A is indeed in school now so I guess little R must be at home with mom. I never see her out by herself (the three year old) unless her sister leaves her stranded, which does not happen often.

Anyway, thank you all for the support! I kind of needed help figuring out what to do and say and if maybe I was still making too much of a simple difference in opinion as to the freedoms you should give kids at each age. Everyone has different standards, but I am worried for these girls. I'll update if applicable.

[sarafi]

Originally Posted by choli

Since your son is 4, maybe you could just ask him how A came to be wearing his clothes in a non leading, non accusatory way? She may have just decided to steal his clothes if he took them off.

I am all for free range kids, but this really does sound like neglect to me.

Yeah, I pretty much blew the opportunity of asking calming when I freaked out thinking that he had run away! She was acting so strangely, and he would not answer when I called. I was terrified, ran over to look, found him hiding naked behind an umbrella they took from my house, noticed that she was wearing his clothes and ordered him inside and for her to change back and leave immediately.

He is more of the type to bring something up weeks afterward and tell all the details then, so I'll just give him lots of time to talk about whatever he wants and hopefully he will tell me soon.

[LROM]

Very glad you reported. And even though it was second hand, did you also report your neighbor's experience that A tried to strangle her daughter and what she hears A's parents yell at her/her sister? It is absolutely ok to include those details as long as you're clear that you didn't see/hear them yourself and how you came to hear them.

What response did you get from the police? What response from Family Advocacy? And btw because I don't know, is Family Advocacy the military's version of child protective services?

You did the right thing, because as much as A gets up to stuff she shouldn't, between your experiences and your neighbors it sounds like she's at LEAST neglected, and very possibly also abused, and hopefully an intervention might prove helpful in the end for her family. I really hope so - I don't know anything about how things like this go on a military base. But I'm really glad you acted.

And just for the record, I second the thought that A may not have done anything at all sexual to your son and instead may have wanted his clothes. If they were both naked that would be different (and I understand she had to get naked to get her clothes off and his on) but if sexual abuse was the goal, just somehow seems a weird thing to want to put his clothes on. And if you were away for that brief a time, sounds like there wasn't really time for anything other than getting undressed and her getting his clothes on. No way to know for sure, but that's how what you said struck me.

[sarafi]

Originally Posted by LROM

Very glad you reported. And even though it was second hand, did you also report your neighbor's experience that A tried to strangle her daughter and what she hears A's parents yell at her/her sister? It is absolutely ok to include those details as long as you're clear that you didn't see/hear them yourself and how you came to hear them.

What response did you get from the police? What response from Family Advocacy? And btw because I don't know, is Family Advocacy the military's version of child protective services?

You did the right thing, because as much as A gets up to stuff she shouldn't, between your experiences and your neighbors it sounds like she's at LEAST neglected, and very possibly also abused, and hopefully an intervention might prove helpful in the end for her family. I really hope so - I don't know anything about how things like this go on a military base. But I'm really glad you acted.

And just for the record, I second the thought that A may not have done anything at all sexual to your son and instead may have wanted his clothes. If they were both naked that would be different (and I understand she had to get naked to get her clothes off and his on) but if sexual abuse was the goal, just somehow seems a weird thing to want to put his clothes on. And if you were away for that brief a time, sounds like there wasn't really time for anything other than getting undressed and her getting his clothes on. No way to know for sure, but that's how what you said struck me.

I did report it and was re-interviewed later that same day. I also repeated what her neighbor had said and made very clear that since I lived so far away I could not verify what happens at their actual house-- and that they should interview the neighbors themselves.

Family Advocacy is kind of like CPS, they take the calls and decide if they should investigate and then either work with the families if the problem is fixable or turn it over to the Military Police if it was something that was really bad and the kids needed to be pulled from the house right then.

From my impression of the interview, the interviewer didn't think it was a big deal and didn't really get why I was worried and why I could not give specific dates if I was worried enough about them to call. Yes, that would have been smart--but really it's not like I was calling to report that they beat their kids on then lawn on such and such day more like a pattern of neglect that I suspect.

My friend is friends with a civilian criminal investigator on base and is calling him today to report as well. Hopefully he can get Family Advocacy to at least open an investigation or start one through his office. My friend also has been very worried about these girls and has her own stories to tell, so there is still hope. I basically came off as a busy-body, IMO, but maybe not.

[queenjane]

It sounds to me like this girl has big emotional issues, and those issues can be caused by early, severe neglect. It sounds like her mom just can't be bothered with her or her sister (the long stretches of no parental attention, the mom ignoring even basic needs like diaper changing)...when children must fend for themselves at a very early age they can develop survival mechanisms that arent exactly healthy and functional.

Sometimes, when you are around a child like this a lot, you see things other people dont. When you explain stuff the child does, it seems to others like "no big deal" (for example, saying well she took our scooter, or she had my son's clothes etc)...but YOU know its different, your instincts are telling you something is "off" about this child.

The lying, the stealing, the sneakiness, being so very irritating, the possible boundary crossing/sexual abuse issues (just because it may not have happened this time doesnt mean it wont in the future)...these are big problems for this child that you cant fix. These are issues that might be fixed by long term therapy and being in a different home environment. Unfortunately, if the parents are providing the bare basics for the child (food, shelter, etc), nothing will probably be done. Its likely the little girl will try to come over to play again, and will probably need you to be very direct with her that she cannot come to play. Its sad, but your priority is your own children.

[LROM]

Originally Posted by sarafi

From my impression of the interview, the interviewer didn't think it was a big deal and didn't really get why I was worried and why I could not give specific dates if I was worried enough about them to call. Yes, that would have been smart--but really it's not like I was calling to report that they beat their kids on then lawn on such and such day more like a pattern of neglect that I suspect.

My friend is friends with a civilian criminal investigator on base and is calling him today to report as well. Hopefully he can get Family Advocacy to at least open an investigation or start one through his office. My friend also has been very worried about these girls and has her own stories to tell, so there is still hope. I basically came off as a busy-body, IMO, but maybe not.

As the PP said, sometimes it's hard to really convey in words that feeling that you have that something is really wrong. Although really, from what you told us you conveyed it quite well. It's concerning that someone from an agency that is supposed to respond to abuse/neglect that someone would think a 3 yr old (and a 6 yr old) out in the heat on a playground alone for 6 hrs regularly and have to be visited by a neighbor to change a diaper... yes there are far more serious issues out there but that is still pretty clear neglect/lack of adequate supervision and shouldn't be ignored.

Hopefully when your friend reports there will be more of a response. Maybe since the mom is from another country there are some cultural differences (we deal with that all the time) and an appropriate, respectful intervention might actually help. Fingers are majorly crossed for these little girls - they need some assistance and so probably do the parents.

[sarafi]

Originally Posted by LROM

As the PP said, sometimes it's hard to really convey in words that feeling that you have that something is really wrong. Although really, from what you told us you conveyed it quite well. It's concerning that someone from an agency that is supposed to respond to abuse/neglect that someone would think a 3 yr old (and a 6 yr old) out in the heat on a playground alone for 6 hrs regularly and have to be visited by a neighbor to change a diaper... yes there are far more serious issues out there but that is still pretty clear neglect/lack of adequate supervision and shouldn't be ignored.

Hopefully when your friend reports there will be more of a response. Maybe since the mom is from another country there are some cultural differences (we deal with that all the time) and an appropriate, respectful intervention might actually help. Fingers are majorly crossed for these little girls - they need some assistance and so probably do the parents.

Just to clarify, both of the parents are American and Caucasian. I realize that there are different "cultures" within that group, but just wanted to point that out. One of their neighbors is Japanese (the language barrier I was describing, not one of the parents of the girls I am worried about.) If these kids where Japanese I would expect them to always have a water bottle around their necks, a backpack full of toys/snacks, and it would be extremely unlikely that a Japanese mommy would let her three year old roam for hours unattended.

The more I think about it, the more I suspect that the Dad must work nights. He has been home twice during the day that I have seen and twice more the mom has said he was home when she was leaving and I happened to be bringing them home (because sending them home never works). They must want the girls outside so that he can sleep? This doesn't explain why they are not checked on them, or why they don't seem to care when they do need something. Many other times A has said that someone was "watching" them, but then again she has also claimed that "someone" was me a few times too.

Who knows what is going on, but I'll let you all know if they do start an investigation. I know now that if I start to suspect something like this again I am going to start a little list so that I can relay what I have seen more accurately. I really think that would have helped.