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overheard in a restaurant - Page 3

post #41 of 134
me: Ava do you want to bring your bitty baby with you?
ava: no
me: are you sure? its going to be boring in there.
ava: i know
me: are you sure you don't want her? you brought her.
ava: I don't want her in there.
me: i am here to have an important chat with my friend. I expect you to entertain yourself.....

etc fast forward 20 minutes after endless interruptions upon finding out she is not the center of attention and we are the mom and daughter outside the restaurant. tears and all. She is 7 1/2.

and heck no. I would not have gotten the doll. And I may have fancied thoughts of sending her out to hang out with the aforementioned doll.
post #42 of 134
When my kids whine for something, we do not go get it. So if she had been complaining and whining about wanting it and being bored after initially telling me that she didn't want to bring it, she would just have to deal with being bored.
post #43 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by choli View Post
If she was younger, I'd probably get the doll, but if she really was around 8, no, I wouldn't.
but i am talking about 'my' child. if i was in that situation.
post #44 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamaofthree View Post
i think the thing here is the confusion on what is a "natural" consequence vs a parent made one... IT is NOT natural for me to say you can't have it NOW because you decided earlier you didn't want it. i am making that consequence, it is not a naturally accouring thing.
8yos (at least in my house) do not have keys to the car. If she left her toy in the car, it *is* a natural consequence that it stays in the car.
post #45 of 134
Quote:
I also don't understand why just because she's a kid, she has to suffer when if an adult leaves something in the car, the adult can go get it.
Because there are some things that we as parents are supposed to teach our children. In a situation like this, the child can learn that sometimes they have to deal with a situation where they CAN'T get what they forgot/made a wrong decision about. They can learn that sometimes they have to think ahead a little. They can learn that mom and dad are NOT there to satisfy their every desire and whim. They can learn how to deal with occasional boredom. And they can learn that sometimes the authority figure DOES know what she's talking about when she gives advice. Sometimes a child does "suffer" to learn a lesson. And I am not saying that any one of those is a VITALLY important lesson to teach, but they aren't wrong for a parent to teach either.

I dislike the "well we would't do that to an adult" arguements, because kids aren't adults. Sometimes they need different treatment, because they are kids. Because they have things they need to learn to become adults. Because it's our job as parents to teach them things. So we treat them differently than the adults that we expect to have already learned those things...and we still treat them differently than the adults who haven't learned them, because it's not our place to teach other adults. But as a parent, it IS my place to teach my child.
post #46 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by meemee View Post
but i am talking about 'my' child. if i was in that situation.
I should think that's what we all are talking about - what we would do if it's our child. I certainly wouldn't be getting the doll for some stranger's child...
post #47 of 134
I'd have gotten the doll if I was just sitting outside, waiting for her to stop crying. And, honestly, my 11 year old might cry for her toy or her book or whatever, this sort of thing comes up all the time in my family. My main reason for not going to get the doll would be because I didn't want to get up and leave the table and go out to the car, but if I had to get up and go outside the restaurant anyway, I'd figure I might as well just get the doll.

But if I was inside and I didn't want to get up and leave my dinner in order to go get her doll, I wouldn't have, I would have found something else for her to do, or I'd have interacted with her more. It's not so much about making sure she follows through with her choice, for me it's more about the fact that if I've given a warning like, "if you want to leave your doll in the car, that's fine, but I'm not going to want to get up and leave my dinner to go and get it if you change your mind" then I probably have a reason that was important to me. I find my children are often not really respectful of that, they just really don't care how I feel and part of growing up is learning how to respect that their parents have needs also, and are not always willing to cater to every request.

My child wants me to go against my own desires because her need is important to her, and usually my children will escalate it until the negative aspect of doing something I didn't want to do is outweighed against the negative aspect of dealing with my child's behavior because she wants what she wants. So then it's a balancing act between my child's need and my own need. At that point I have to ask what my goal is and what is the best thing to do for both of us. If I feel like my child is complaining because she is truly sad and upset, I can talk to her about that and then agree to do what she wants or come up with a mutually beneficial compromise. But sometimes I feel like it's angry behavior because they know that acting out will change the dynamic in a way that is favorable to her, even if it's not to me.

I can see why the mother would do what she did and I think it could be a good thing. Maybe she wanted to go out with her friend and the child insisted on coming along, that she wouldn't be bored, so the mother decided to see how she would do and let her experience it for herself. Or maybe she really wanted her child to get to the point of realizing she wasn't going to get the doll and figure out another way to entertain herself, which would probably come after accepting the inevitability of the situation.

Personally, if I got into the restaurant and realized that leaving the doll in the car was a bad idea, and I thought that getting the doll would let me have some free time to talk to my friend, then I'd have gone right back out and gotten the doll. Or more likely, I'd have found a pen and paper in my purse and let her draw. Or I'd have handed her my iPhone and told her to play a game. I'm often not good at letting my children figure it out for themselves, I just want them to be quiet.
post #48 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by happysmileylady View Post
Because there are some things that we as parents are supposed to teach our children. In a situation like this, the child can learn that sometimes they have to deal with a situation where they CAN'T get what they forgot/made a wrong decision about. They can learn that sometimes they have to think ahead a little.
How can she think ahead about wanting a toy because there's nothing to colour, without knowing there's nothing to colour?

Quote:
They can learn that mom and dad are NOT there to satisfy their every desire and whim.
Is it really necessary to leave a child bored in a restaurant to teach that? There are multiple teachable moments on that front every day.

Quote:
They can learn how to deal with occasional boredom.
hmm...if I were at a restaurant with two people who were ignoring me, I'd probably leave. Since the girl didn't have that option, wanting her doll seems like a reasonable compromise.

Quote:
And they can learn that sometimes the authority figure DOES know what she's talking about when she gives advice.
My life background is not such that I'm inclined to teach my child this lesson at all. I want her to question "authority" figures...always.

Quote:
Sometimes a child does "suffer" to learn a lesson. And I am not saying that any one of those is a VITALLY important lesson to teach, but they aren't wrong for a parent to teach either.
A parent can certainly teach these lessons. I think I read a different OP than you did, though. We certainly interpreted the conversation between the mom and daughter very differently.
post #49 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by happysmileylady View Post
Because there are some things that we as parents are supposed to teach our children. In a situation like this, the child can learn that sometimes they have to deal with a situation where they CAN'T get what they forgot/made a wrong decision about. They can learn that sometimes they have to think ahead a little. They can learn that mom and dad are NOT there to satisfy their every desire and whim. They can learn how to deal with occasional boredom. And they can learn that sometimes the authority figure DOES know what she's talking about when she gives advice. Sometimes a child does "suffer" to learn a lesson. And I am not saying that any one of those is a VITALLY important lesson to teach, but they aren't wrong for a parent to teach either.

I dislike the "well we would't do that to an adult" arguements, because kids aren't adults. Sometimes they need different treatment, because they are kids. Because they have things they need to learn to become adults. Because it's our job as parents to teach them things. So we treat them differently than the adults that we expect to have already learned those things...and we still treat them differently than the adults who haven't learned them, because it's not our place to teach other adults. But as a parent, it IS my place to teach my child.
I agree.

And no, sometimes the adult can't go get it. If I'm in a restaurant alone with my kids, I can't run out to the car to get something. If I'm in an amusement park or a theater or a museum, often times you can't leave and come back in. When I leave my car, I have to think "okay, this is it. Is there anything I'll need that I don't have in my bag already? Am I forgetting anything?" I don't see how that's a natural thought that suddenly emerges: a lifetime of trial and error teaches you to be prepared.

An 8 year old who was warned that she would be bored, and is now bored, tried and erred and hopefully next time she'll think a little bit harder. A preschooler just doesn't have the cognitive ability to think ahead and plan for the future, even the immediate future. So yes, I would run out for my 3 year old. (Actually, if I asked my three year old and she said no, I'd say "how about we bring it anyway, just in case?" and stuff it in my bag before she can protest.) But an 8 year old is perfectly capable of planning ahead at that level, and I don't think it's unduly mean or inappropriate for her to have to live with a poor choice that led to a minor inconvenience.

And this is, at best, a minor inconvenience. And really not worth crying over. Being bored for 15 minutes is good for kids anyway. She should either learn to dissect whatever juicy gossip the grownups are talking about that they think is over her head, or make up fantastic stories in her head about the secret lives of the other diners. And you're never too old for an imaginary friends to have silent conversations with. Those sorts of things kept me quite occupied for many a boring adult event in my childhood. At the very least, nice restaurants have dinner rolls that she can munch on.
post #50 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by chickabiddy View Post
8yos (at least in my house) do not have keys to the car. If she left her toy in the car, it *is* a natural consequence that it stays in the car.
no it isn't a natural consequence, it is a parent made consequence... because YOU can go get it or give her the keys to go get it. it is OK that you would choose not to go get it to show her that when you make a choice you have to live with it, but it isn't natural at all that she can't have the doll, it is that you are choosing not to get it.

h
post #51 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamaofthree View Post
no it isn't a natural consequence, it is a parent made consequence... because YOU can go get it or give her the keys to go get it. it is OK that you would choose not to go get it to show her that when you make a choice you have to live with it, but it isn't natural at all that she can't have the doll, it is that you are choosing not to get it.

h
I don't understand what you are saying. If someone decides for themselves not to bring something, how is it not a natural consequence that they don't have it? Actions have consequences, the action of not bringing the doll leads to the consequence of not having the doll. It was the child's decision, she made her choice, and the mother going out to get the doll would be interfering with that initial choice... not at all a consequence of that choice.
post #52 of 134
my


I would not bring my DS or DD (regardless of their age) to a restaurant and them ignore them. If I was with a friend who needed to have an important conversation, I would not have brought my child or I would have made dinner for the friend at my house so the child would not be bored while we were eating/talking.

I think it is really crappy to bring a child to a restaurant, expect them to behave like an adult and then not engage them conversation while waiting for the meal. We always played games at restaurants like "I Spy" or "20 questions" to pass the time.

I realize there may be some unavoidable situations, and in some cases parents may view a situation like that as a "learning experience" but I would rather have a peaceful and fun meal than turn it into a set-up for a tantrum.
post #53 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamaofthree View Post
no it isn't a natural consequence, it is a parent made consequence... because YOU can go get it or give her the keys to go get it. it is OK that you would choose not to go get it to show her that when you make a choice you have to live with it, but it isn't natural at all that she can't have the doll, it is that you are choosing not to get it.
No. The doll staying where it is, in the car (because she does not have the keys), is natural. My going to get is not "natural". It is a deliberately chosen (or not) action.
post #54 of 134
i do not think in anyway it is my job to make my kids miserable just because i am big and they are little. and I TRULY believe that just because someone is littler then you or has less life experience then you, does not mean they need to be "taught a lesson" so they learn that life sucks and no one has their back. my job as their parent is to have their back.

if i needed something and was unable to get it... but dh was and he said nope, you must learn this lesson. and i came here and said my dh did this, people would think he was a beast... YET it is perfectly good parenting to do this to a child. is it to show them how to NOT treat people we care about?

as to the original question... even if you felt like you could not leave the place to go get the doll, and the child had thought they would have paper to draw on... maybe calling the wait staff and asking for paper and giving the child a pen to draw with.

but maybe i am biased as i was parented that way and felt like it sucked and all i learned was that MY needs and wants meant very little and my parents needs and wants meant alot.

h
post #55 of 134
1. That still doesn't mean it's not a natural consequence to not have something if you chose not to have that thing.

2. I would not consider my husband a beast if he didn't want to leave a meal with his friend to fetch something (that was not a lifesaving medicine or the like) for me.
post #56 of 134
it is not natural because someone CAN get the doll but they choose not to. which like i said is fine. if i left my wallet in the car, i could go get it... it isn't someplace i am unable to get it from (like if i left it on a plane that was now in new york). if i decide not to get it, that is a choice. you can, by all means, choose to NOT go get the doll. you can say to your kid that they can't have it because they didn't feel they would need it when they made that choice, but in the end it is a choice you can make as a parent to go get the doll. nothing is preventing that from happening. no flood that washed the car away, not fire that burned it up. it is completely available for someone to go get right at that moment, but they are choosing not too. so i guess the choice for the parent is... do i get the doll and have a child who will happily sit thru dinner and stay busy so i can talk to my friend and eat, OR do i teach them a lesson and have an unhappy child and then leave the restaurant and sit outside with them instead of sitting with my friend?

i agree with the PP who said they would have not taken the child if they were not going to visit with them. i have yet to take my kids to any place that wasn't kid friendly (as in has crayons and such). if my friend really needed to talk to me i would just go.

i guess we will have to agree to disagree on this... because if i asked my dh to please go out to the car and get my sweater because i didn't feel i needed it at the time we left the car, but now i did... i would be pissed that he didn't. MOSTLY because if he asked me i would go do it. to me it isn't a big deal to do things for my family, to help them out even if they made a "bad choice" (which honestly i still don't see leaving a doll in the car as a bad choice). but that is how we do it in our house. and YES i have left a restaurant to go get a stuff thing, a toy car, a book, whatever. it didn't bother me, and maybe that is why i am so shocked that it is even an issue with some people, that it is even a lesson to teach their kids. to me it is just part of parenting , heck part of being a human. we all forget things. no biggy. it becomes a biggy when we make it that way.
post #57 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by choli View Post
I should think that's what we all are talking about - what we would do if it's our child. I certainly wouldn't be getting the doll for some stranger's child...
no i am talking about if this whole situation was happening in my situation.

dd and i have done many adult things where she has had to 'behave'. the reason i would not get her the doll is coz we have been thru many situations like that and she should know better by 8. like the lilyka conversation.

however if the child has not been made to understand exactly what is expected out of her and she changes her mind then i would go get the doll for her.

i would not judge the mom because i dont know the back history.
post #58 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post
How can she think ahead about wanting a toy because there's nothing to colour, without knowing there's nothing to colour?
But again, we don't know the situation that occured before...it's entirely possible mom TOLD her there wasn't going to be anything to do.


Quote:
Is it really necessary to leave a child bored in a restaurant to teach that? There are multiple teachable moments on that front every day.
Necessary, perhaps, perhaps not, but that doesn't make the mom wrong if she did choose this particular teachable moment. It could be asked "is it necessary to use that moment" about ANY of the teachable moments that occur in a day.


Quote:
hmm...if I were at a restaurant with two people who were ignoring me, I'd probably leave. Since the girl didn't have that option, wanting her doll seems like a reasonable compromise.
Sometimes though, when you are bored, you CAN'T leave. Like in a class that you already know the stuff, but need to graduate. Like in a work meeting that addresses a whole other department but your boss wants you at. Sometimes life hands you boredom.


Quote:
My life background is not such that I'm inclined to teach my child this lesson at all. I want her to question "authority" figures...always.
A person who ALWAYS questions authority figures about ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING, especially if the authority figure has already been accepted as an authority figure, is going to have issues because of that. An example. My 9th grader is in soccer. She's the freshman goalie...the only one. She and the coaches have been working to train a backup. The second game of the season, the back up played 3/4 of the game, my dd, only a little over 15 minutes. My dd was devestated, convinced she was going to lose her place. The next day, after practice the head coach of the three teams called her aside and asked her to participate in the jv game this weekend. She didn't play much in the freshman game because if she is needed to play any substantial length of time this weekend, she needed that playing time available as IHSAA rules limit the total time a player can play on any team-varisty, jv or freshman. The freshman coach was not at liberty to divulge the information at the freshman game, in front of the other freshman players. In that case, "questioning authority" could very well have cost her the "promotion." I totally agree with questioning occasionally when something doesn't make sense. But sometimes your boss, your coach, your teacher, your parent DOES know what they are talking about and sometimes they can't explain the reasons and I think it's important to teach a child that there might be a minor occasion or two in life where they should probably trust that the person in authority might actually know what they are talking about. I think any parent that doesn't teach their child that sometimes mom and dad might just give the correct information is in for a VERY long road of parenting. I can't imagine not wanting my child to know that sometimes I do know what I am talking about.

Quote:
A parent can certainly teach these lessons. I think I read a different OP than you did, though. We certainly interpreted the conversation between the mom and daughter very differently.
Well, I am speaking in a more general sense, though I think these things can apply to the OP as well. These may or may not have been things the mother in the situation in the OP was trying to teach...we are only 3rd hand observers on the internet who know basically nothing about the real situation.
post #59 of 134
I do not feel I have enough back story to say if I would or not. If the mom was being calm I would say there might be a very valid reason behind her decision that you have no clue about. We do not know how or if the child was truly being ignored.

Since I have had exchanges with my children like lilyka has described, yes I would have told her to live with her decision - because she is 8 not 2.
post #60 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamaofthree View Post
i do not think in anyway it is my job to make my kids miserable just because i am big and they are little. and I TRULY believe that just because someone is littler then you or has less life experience then you, does not mean they need to be "taught a lesson" so they learn that life sucks and no one has their back. my job as their parent is to have their back.

if i needed something and was unable to get it... but dh was and he said nope, you must learn this lesson. and i came here and said my dh did this, people would think he was a beast... YET it is perfectly good parenting to do this to a child. is it to show them how to NOT treat people we care about?

as to the original question... even if you felt like you could not leave the place to go get the doll, and the child had thought they would have paper to draw on... maybe calling the wait staff and asking for paper and giving the child a pen to draw with.

but maybe i am biased as i was parented that way and felt like it sucked and all i learned was that MY needs and wants meant very little and my parents needs and wants meant alot.

h
But doing something like this-requiring that the child live with the decision she made-every once in a while isn't the same as doing it ALL the time. Every so often isn't going to teach teach the child that she's never important, but it will teach the child that every so often, they aren't the most important being there. And because we are only seeing a snippit, we don't know that the parent "makes their child miserable all the time " just to teach a lesson. And I certainly don't advocate forcing a child to be miserable all the time just for the sake of a lesson. I certainly don't advocate for parenting as a dictator. But I absolutely believe that on occasion, allowing a child to suffer the not so fun consequences of her decisions is going to be good for her.
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