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post #81 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by queenjane View Post
We don't know that the child was being ignored. We do know she said no one was talking to her. We don't know if that is true, or just the child's perception.

I have an 8 yr old, and i know that if we don't talk about Justin Bieber every five minutes at dinner, or if I don't allow her to constantly interrupt, or if she isnt the center of attention 100 percent of the time, she feels ignored.
My dd is 7 and is the same way. When I have a guest over she is obnoxious about wanting to be the center of attention the whole time. Luckily my brother is coming over more often and we are moving through this but it is a slow process. I am guessing that something more happened there and that the doll was being used as an excuse for the tantrum that led to the child being taken out of the restaurant.

I don't think it was a big deal that the mom didn't get the toy. It is probably something that she knew was coming when she didn't bring the doll inside in the first place at her age. I would also not want to reinforce the idea that you can be so naughty in a restaurant that you have to be taken outside then get a reward for it, especially if she hadn't asked about the doll before escalating to the point of needing to be taken outside. It doesn't sound like a mean conversation, it sounds like a gentle one where the mom was firmly talking her kid down after having to deal with an issue that led to her being taken outside. I don't think it is something to get judgmental about either. The mom didn't proceed to smack her after saying these things, she waited outside until the girl regained self-control. A lot of families wouldn't even have given the doll option in the first place and still would have expected their child to have their restaurant manners on.
post #82 of 134
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Originally Posted by MadiMamacita View Post
The girl said "I didn't know there wouldn't be coloring stuff here! I'm so bored, I just want something to play with! You are talking with your friend and no one is talking to me and I'm bored!" and the mom said "Thats what happens when you go to adult restaurants. They don't always have coloring things. When you stop crying we can go back inside."
Like other PP's I don't know the back story so it's hard to know what I'd do. However, I do know that if I went into a restaurant with two other people, I'd expect to be in conversation with them. If it turned out that they talked to one another and not me, I'd go back to the car and get a book. So in this changed situation (changed in the girl's mind) I'd let her go back to the car and get her doll.

If the girl was warned that the adults would be talking with one another only, and her mother highly recommended the girl bring something to do, and she continually refused, then no, I wouldn't let her go back.

On the other hand, if I really wanted to be in conversation with an adult friend while my daughter was there, and the conversation wasn't something that would interest my daughter, I'd make sure she had something to do so I could have that conversation. My adult conversation, my responsibility to make sure it works for everyone involved. So I'd have a back up plan, a book in my purse or something I thought DD would enjoy on hand. given the power differences between adults and children, I'm guessing the whole dinner with an adult friend arrangement was the adults' idea, not the child's, so I wouldn't expect the child to accommodate my wishes perfectly without some help from me.
post #83 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamazee View Post
What I was talking about there was the idea that seems present in this thread that in general kids should be taught to not change their minds. I don't understand why that's a lesson that parents want to teach their kids.
I guess the lesson I'd be trying to teach would be that other people may not be willing to accommodate mind-changing.

Again, under some circumstances, I'd be happy to get the doll.

Under others, it wouldn't be so much "you can't have the doll" as "right now I am not willing to leave the restaurant and walk down the block to fetch the doll". That may be semantics to some, but to me there's a difference between refusing a request out of meanness or spite and refusing a request that feels unreasonable -- and there are definitely circumstances where one person going out of her way to accommodate another person's changed mind may not be reasonable.
post #84 of 134
Another wrinkle in the story--

Perhaps they were dropped off? So going back to get the doll is not an option.

Probably not, but that's happened to me too--where you HAD whatever it was but let it drive away and now 30 minutes later you wished you had taken xyz. But you can't do anything about it.
post #85 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarrieMF View Post
no i wouldn't have gotten the doll, especially if this girl was 8.

you don't know the backstory. this girl could have been told that it woudl be boring, that it was not a kids restaurant, etc.

An 8yo is more than old enough to sit in a restaurant without having to have something to do/play with until food comes.
Definitely.
post #86 of 134
Originally Posted by CarrieMF View Post
no i wouldn't have gotten the doll, especially if this girl was 8.

you don't know the backstory. this girl could have been told that it woudl be boring, that it was not a kids restaurant, etc.

An 8yo is more than old enough to sit in a restaurant without having to have something to do/play with until food comes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KaliShanti View Post
Definitely.
Awww, but see, one has to make so many assumptions to get to this. We don't know that she's 8. We don't know that she was told it was going to be boring. We don't even know that she was being all that annoying before this started. We don't know why she's out with her mom and a friend, or how much choice she had about being there. We're also assuming that just because a child of a certain age *should* be able to sit still *with nothing to do*, that this is ideal. And again, I really think the bigger issue here as I said in my previous post (given that we don't know ANY of the back story) is the parent's decision to make choices irrevocable without due cause.

It's funny, because my husband, and certainly his parents are highly practical people, discipline and teaching wise. They were the no nonsense kind of parents, and they have always expected adult like behavior from children past a certain age. They often say no before yes. However, they also treat children with a certain amount of respect, and I have never seen an occasion when they would sit at a table at a restaurant or anywhere else and expect a child to sit there with nothing to do -- even if said child left a toy in the car as part of a well reasoned decision. They would definitely be engaging with the child, and if necessary and possible, one of them would go to the car with the child. And these are old school folks.
post #87 of 134
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Originally Posted by Attached2Elijah View Post
Well, by the tone of the conversation, I am assuming Mom asked her more then once if she was sure she didn't want to bring her dolly in so she wouldn't be bored and even made her aware that it would not be fun. I am pretty sure I have had almost the same conversation with my son. Is it a big deal to get the doll? Probably not, but if she gave the child a choice several times before leaving the car, yeah I would make my kids deal with the choice made. If you give in to one request such as this, then the next time the child expects you to as well until it REALLY gets to be a pain in the butt. I actually agree with the mother completely and seems like she handled it pretty well. Sometimes children have to deal with adult situations and if mom gave her the choice to make it a little less boring before going in and the child chose to disregard that, then the consequences (being bored) should be learned... but that's just my opinion. I think it's okay for kids to be bored sometimes if they've been warned. (Heck, her mom may have even tried to talk her out of going to the restaurant all together. We don't know what the conversations were BEFOREHAND.)
I completely agree with this.
post #88 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by chickabiddy View Post
Dolls do not come into restaurants by themselves. It is natural for the doll to remain where it was left.

It is artificial -- not wrong, but not natural -- for someone to go get the doll.

It is a perfect example of a natural consequence that the doll stays in the car.

While it's great for kids to learn natural consequences I think there's really a time and a place. And a restaurant isn't it.
If the Mom and daughter were outside the restaurant having this issue then it's obvios that there was some sort of lead up that forced them outside. (kid throws a fit, cries, etc)
So rather than disrupt everyone around them, who are spending hard earned money for a meal out, not to mention ruining their own meal, why not skip the whole 'life lesson' nonsense and get the darn doll?

Why does everything always have to have a 'lesson' or natural consequence lesson attatched?
The fact that the mother was standing outside arguing with her daughter is absurd. Big whoop, she didn't think she'd want her doll, now she does, she's a kid, kids change their minds 50,000 times a day. Thats what kids do. We did it to our parents now our kids do it to us.

IMO, the mother should have brought the doll, along with a raft of other items to entertain the child. So as far as I'm concerned, she (the mother) failed to do her part in this outing, then took it out on the child by being unbending and hardnosed.

So I wonder, did the kid eventually get to eat? Did they end up leaving? Did they go back in? Did she cry for the next hour while the adults ate? Was she miserable and not enjoy her meal?
Whatever happened next I'm sure wasn't much fun for anyone involved but could have been very easily remedied.
post #89 of 134
Its a nice bonus when a restaurant has crayons or something for the kids. But frankly i dont expect my child to be entertained when we go out to eat.

I have two 2 yr olds, and 8 yr old, and sometimes my 13 yr old with me...and we go out to eat at least weekly and sometimes three or four times a week. I almost never bring "something for them to do"...when my sons were a bit younger, yes, i might bring a toy but usually not.

I guess it might be boring for an older child to sit there while two adults are talking. But frankly, i DO think there is value in that, something for the child to listen and learn. And she can (as someone else mentioned) use her imagination to make up stories in her head about other patrons, or whatever else. Did she try to talk to the adults and they admonished her to "be quiet!" or did she just feel that most of the conversation wasnt interesting to her? We'll never know of course.

Also...seems like playing with a doll might be a little distracting, moreso than coloring or a book (but i'm new to the mom of girls thing so maybe i'm not picturing what playing with a doll looks like).

And when we are talking about needing something to occupy their time...do you just mean while waiting for food? (Which shouldnt be THAT long right? not too long for a child older than three or so to tolerate not having a toy to play with?) Because i would like to think that once the food comes, the child WILL have something to do? (Eat...) Obviously if the adults are sitting there for an endless amount of time after the meal is done, i see that being tedious, but again we dont know exactly what happened. Do we know the mom didnt offer paper and pen or a cell phone to play with or some other alternative? I suspect that the could be a pattern with the girl (saying she wont bring something then changing her mind), and the mom could have handled it differently (by bringing the doll just in case, though some kids would be upset by that as well) or she could have decided she is sick of the treks back to the car, so she's drawing a line.

I guess its a sore spot for me, because i've recently adopted a child with emotional issues and i imagine strangers think i'm awfully mean to her in public (such as when i dont let her chat up cashiers or when i dont acknowledge her begging for toys in stores, etc) heck i think my own family probably thinks i'm just so hard on her. But if people arent living my life they dont understand. My experience with *my* daughter is that if i give in even once, it makes it sooo much worse the next time. So i almost always say "no" to everything. That is NOT how i'm used to parenting but it is what it is. And now i'm way less judgemental of other parents i see in public because i realize i just may not have the full picture of what they are dealing with.

With my older son, when he was younger, i'd probably go back to the car. With my daughter, no i likely would not.

I also want to add...someone mentioned if they went to a restaurant and got ignored by the people they were there with, they'd go get a book and read it. That just seems so...rude to me. If they were PURPOSELY ignoring you..like, you'd contribute and they wouldnt look at you, or seemed to be mad at you, i could see getting up and leaving. But then i wouldnt want to be friends with those people. BUT if i was in a position where i had to..i dunno...go out to lunch with two people discussing something i knew nothing about, i would just listen quietly, maybe zone off a bit in my head...why would that bother me? Why would i feel like i needed to have attention and be entertained? I get that kids are different developmentally (which is why i dont see that its very useful to compare it to a husband not getting something for you or a friend ignoring you. My child has to do alot of things that might not be interesting to her, like go to the store or run errands or clean the house. And while i dont try to intentionally make these situations drudgery for her, I also dont necessarily feel she should expect to find all situations entertaining.

When i was a kid we went out to eat alot and rarely did i bring toys. I just listened in to the conversation. Maybe thats where i developed a love of gossip.
post #90 of 134
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While it's great for kids to learn natural consequences I think there's really a time and a place. And a restaurant isn't it
Then where is the place? I really believe that our children are as well behaved as they are because we've expected it from them in every setting.
post #91 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by phathui5 View Post
Then where is the place? I really believe that our children are as well behaved as they are because we've expected it from them in every setting.
Yes but like I said, there had to have been some lead up scene to the mother taking the child out of the restaurant. Why put the other diners, not to mention herself, her DD and whoever else she was with through a tantrum/crying fit/ prolonged whining/etc ? Especially when the mother could pop out, grab the doll (and whatever else she might have stowed away in the car) at the first hint of a public display of tantrum, come back in, say "here's dolly, next time let's bring her with us just in case!"
So no, a public restaurant, IMO is not the place to be teaching your child about natural consequences.
(Natural consequences to me are more along the lines of "oh look DS you went and ate the last cookie, I guess you won't be getting one in your lunchbox tomorrow" or " DS, you're the one who stayed up on the phone until midnight with your g/f, I know your tired but you have to get up for school anyway, next time plan your evening a bit better")

She could have just got the doll and had a chat with her DD about thinking and planning ahead after they got home? The kid would have been calm, fed and ready to listen.

Really, I think the only thing the child would have gotten out of her mom not getting the doll, pitching a fit, being taken outside (probably within sight of the car) are thoughts along the lines of "I hate this" "I'm so bored" "Mom is so mean" "Why wont she just listen to me?" Heck, I would have thought she was mean, or trying to prove a point, or trying to show off if I'd witnessed it. I mean, what's wrong with bending a little?

I cannot for the life of me imagine a child walking away saying to herself "oh well, next time I'll remember my doll" and proceeding to sit down calmly and eat. Maybe there are kids like that who will be grateful to the lesson taught and learned but I've never met any.
post #92 of 134
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Originally Posted by cappuccinosmom View Post
I agree.

Maybe I'm a horrible mom. But my youngest went through a stage where he would change his mind about something 20 times in as many minutes, and if I let him get going on that route it would be a sure tantrum (and a mental breakdown for me). So the rule is, we talk about it, I give you the options, and you pick one. Period. The end. I'm not playing that game.

Could be the mom in the situation really is uncaring and mean. However, knowing that someone might overhear me saying something similiar, and not knowing any background on that family, I'd say it's best to reserve judgement.
My thoughts, too. It's hard to say, but there are times even when it's easy to do something, I don't do it precisely because I'm not going to open up that can of worms. It might *seem* easy... but then it might turn into a ridiculous hullabaloo and I will regret it for the next 30 minutes. She's eight, I hope by the time my kid is eight she can go out there herself and get it.
post #93 of 134
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Originally Posted by childsplay View Post
Yes but like I said, there had to have been some lead up scene to the mother taking the child out of the restaurant. Why put the other diners, not to mention herself, her DD and whoever else she was with through a tantrum/crying fit/ prolonged whining/etc ? Especially when the mother could pop out, grab the doll (and whatever else she might have stowed away in the car) at the first hint of a public display of tantrum, come back in, say "here's dolly, next time let's bring her with us just in case!"
So no, a public restaurant, IMO is not the place to be teaching your child about natural consequences.
Because it's my job as a parent to parent my child REGARDLESS of what other people think of it. And because if I am going to go out to eat regularly, my child needs to learn that discipline still occurs in restaraunts also.


Quote:
Really, I think the only thing the child would have gotten out of her mom not getting the doll, pitching a fit, being taken outside (probably within sight of the car) are thoughts along the lines of "I hate this" "I'm so bored" "Mom is so mean" "Why wont she just listen to me?" Heck, I would have thought she was mean, or trying to prove a point, or trying to show off if I'd witnessed it. I mean, what's wrong with bending a little?

I cannot for the life of me imagine a child walking away saying to herself "oh well, next time I'll remember my doll" and proceeding to sit down calmly and eat. Maybe there are kids like that who will be grateful to the lesson taught and learned but I've never met any.
Well, yeah, the child probably IS thinking all that. My teen said virtually the same thing to me (along with some "you don't really care about me or my grades anyway" sprinkled in there for good measure) last night, when after having been reminded at "normal" hours to get the dishes done (her chore) she ended up in the kitchen doing them at 11pm and was trying to convince me that it was too late to do the dishes and if she didn't get enough sleep, she was going to fail Geometry (btw, no tests or anything today to fail and homework was already done.)

But, while I am sure that this child didn't walk away THIS time going "next time I will remember," the next time this comes around, the child is much much more likely to think "last time sucked, I am going to bring my doll in this time." Just like my teen is more likely to remember to do the dishes at a reasonable hour tonight.
post #94 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by childsplay View Post
Yes but like I said, there had to have been some lead up scene to the mother taking the child out of the restaurant. Why put the other diners, not to mention herself, her DD and whoever else she was with through a tantrum/crying fit/ prolonged whining/etc ? Especially when the mother could pop out, grab the doll (and whatever else she might have stowed away in the car) at the first hint of a public display of tantrum, come back in, say "here's dolly, next time let's bring her with us just in case!"
So no, a public restaurant, IMO is not the place to be teaching your child about natural consequences.
I handle my 2 yr olds a bit differently because they arent quite at an age to understand "no you cant have that now" (they are getting there)...so generally if there is an easy way to keep them from melting down, i tend to do that thing.

However, with my 8 yr old? I do not give in to tantrums. If we have to go outside of a public place to spare patrons having to listen to her, we'll do that, but reward her tantrum with giving in? Nope. That is the surest way to give her the msg that is how she gets what she wants. In fact, many kids tantrum in public because they KNOW mom will give in to avoid upsetting the public or out of embarrassment.

I do make a distinction between being genuinely upset about something and throwing a fit/whining/etc. I can tell the difference with my kids.
post #95 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by childsplay View Post
Yes but like I said, there had to have been some lead up scene to the mother taking the child out of the restaurant. Why put the other diners, not to mention herself, her DD and whoever else she was with through a tantrum/crying fit/ prolonged whining/etc ? Especially when the mother could pop out, grab the doll (and whatever else she might have stowed away in the car) at the first hint of a public display of tantrum, come back in, say "here's dolly, next time let's bring her with us just in case!"
Quite possibly because the mother knows her daughter, and what brought the behaviour on, and knows that the doll is just an excuse for a tantrum and that it would make absolutely no difference to her DD's determination to have a tantrum whether the doll was retrieved or not.

I certainly was able to tell when that sort of situation arose with my DDs when they were younger.
post #96 of 134
For a typically developing 8yo, no, I don't think it's my job to bring a "raft of toys" to entertain her in a restaurant.

I would allow her to bring one small and quiet item. If she chose not to, then as I wrote above, out of courtesy to her and the other diners, I would give her a pen and paper from my purse. I'd probably also ask the server for some crackers if the meltdown was due in part to hunger.
post #97 of 134
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Originally Posted by queenjane View Post
I have two 2 yr olds, and 8 yr old, and sometimes my 13 yr old with me...and we go out to eat at least weekly and sometimes three or four times a week. I almost never bring "something for them to do"...when my sons were a bit younger, yes, i might bring a toy but usually not.
I'll admit to being impressed. I can't imagine going out to eat that often, and definitely not with two 2 year olds in tow! I'd be exhausted. When we do eat out, it's always at family restaurants, and they all have colouring sheets/menus/placemats, so it's never occurred to me to bring anything else along.

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I guess it might be boring for an older child to sit there while two adults are talking. But frankly, i DO think there is value in that, something for the child to listen and learn. And she can (as someone else mentioned) use her imagination to make up stories in her head about other patrons, or whatever else. Did she try to talk to the adults and they admonished her to "be quiet!" or did she just feel that most of the conversation wasnt interesting to her? We'll never know of course.
This is the thing. We don't know. All we know is that child said to her mom that the two adults were ignoring her, and her mom's response to that was, "that's what happens at adult restaurants". I'm not going to make up a back story or assume that child was nagging, child wasn't really being ignored, child was warned, etc. etc. in stating how I'd respond to what the OP witnessed. Sure, with the back story, I may change my mind. Or, I may feel even more strongly that I'd get the doll. I just don't see the point in making up back story to come to a conclusion. I don't really see the value in leaving her out of the conversation, either.

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Also...seems like playing with a doll might be a little distracting, moreso than coloring or a book (but i'm new to the mom of girls thing so maybe i'm not picturing what playing with a doll looks like).
DD1 is probably less distracting when playing with a doll than when colouring. It really depends on the child, ime.

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And when we are talking about needing something to occupy their time...do you just mean while waiting for food? (Which shouldnt be THAT long right? not too long for a child older than three or so to tolerate not having a toy to play with?)
I assumed this was about the period while waiting for the meal. I'm not sure why you'd say it shouldn't be that long, though. I've had some pretty long waits in restaurants.

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Because i would like to think that once the food comes, the child WILL have something to do? (Eat...) Obviously if the adults are sitting there for an endless amount of time after the meal is done, i see that being tedious, but again we dont know exactly what happened. Do we know the mom didnt offer paper and pen or a cell phone to play with or some other alternative? I suspect that the could be a pattern with the girl (saying she wont bring something then changing her mind), and the mom could have handled it differently (by bringing the doll just in case, though some kids would be upset by that as well) or she could have decided she is sick of the treks back to the car, so she's drawing a line.
And, again, this is the "the back story could be such-and-such". We're not talking about the endless possible back stories. We're talking about the specific conversation the OP witnessed. That conversation didn't contain anything that indicated that it's a pattern, that the child had been warned, that the child had been offered something else to do, that the child wasn't being ignored, etc. etc. If those things were the case, then that would affect tha answer, but there's no reason to assume any of those things, based on what OP heard.

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I also want to add...someone mentioned if they went to a restaurant and got ignored by the people they were there with, they'd go get a book and read it. That just seems so...rude to me. If they were PURPOSELY ignoring you..like, you'd contribute and they wouldnt look at you, or seemed to be mad at you, i could see getting up and leaving. But then i wouldnt want to be friends with those people. BUT if i was in a position where i had to..i dunno...go out to lunch with two people discussing something i knew nothing about, i would just listen quietly, maybe zone off a bit in my head...why would that bother me? Why would i feel like i needed to have attention and be entertained?
Some people don't really like to sit and zone off in their heads (personally, I do, but that's me). But, in any case, if one is supposedly at lunch as part of a group and isn't part of the conversation, it's not a very pleasant feeling. If someone I was with where zoning out, I'd feel that they were bored by my company. If they picked up a book, I'd realize I was being rude. In any case, I don't see how reading a book is any more or less rude than just zoning out when one supposedly had dining companions.

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When i was a kid we went out to eat alot and rarely did i bring toys. I just listened in to the conversation. Maybe thats where i developed a love of gossip.
We didn't go out to eat a lot when I was a kid, because we couldn't afford it. But, we did go out - maybe once a month or thereabouts, I think. We didn't bring toys, but we also didn't just listen to the conversation. We participated. If someone wants to just sit and listen, that's one thing. But, requiring a dining companion, of any age, to sit and listen to a conversation, without participating in it, is rude.
post #98 of 134
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I can't imagine going out to eat that often, and definitely not with two 2 year olds in tow! I'd be exhausted. When we do eat out, it's always at family restaurants, and they all have colouring sheets/menus/placemats, so it's never occurred to me to bring anything else along.
Well we almost always go to buffets, so we can get the boys' food first and they are mostly ok. And we dont linger after the meals over. (Long gone are the days of my brother and me sitting for a half hour after a meal just chatting...nope, he's lucky if we let him finish. ) But, i never found toys to be helpful, the ones that might keep them occupied are rather loud electronic things, and other ones would probably just get thrown across the room. So, i tend to bribe them with things like a bowlful of candy from the ice cream bar or a slurpee from the drink bar which buys me some time.

Its the eight yr old who is often talking too loudly, making a mess, eating with her hands, or not sitting in her seat. Go figure (she is WAAAAY more work than my "twins"!)

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Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post
But, requiring a dining companion, of any age, to sit and listen to a conversation, without participating in it, is rude.
I guess i dont see where there is proof that the child was required to sit and not talk.

My dd recently said she feels ignored when we go out to eat (usually my brother is with us, i sit across from my brother, she sits across from the boys)...she said "i want everyone to be able to have a conversation"...well i dont really know what she wants. My brother and i talk, probably about stuff she couldnt care less about. We may ask her questions every now and again "Oh is that steak good?" or "did you have fun at the park yesterday?" or whatever...but then go back to our conversation. Often, she will interrupt midsentence wanting to tell a joke that doesnt make sense, or talk about justin bieber or something, which is fine (well not to interrupt, we're working on that)...but for my child, due to some of her special needs, she really does feel ignored if the attention isnt *totally* on her...and there isnt much i can do about that other than help her learn that she cannot monopolize the attention of others. I'm not sure how else to "include" her in the conversation.

My son, on the other hand, was a very good conversationalist, seemed genuinely interested in whatever "adult" conversation we were having, could contribute to the talk in an on-topic relavent way (yes even at 8 yrs old)...he might be considered "gifted" though i'd say he was a pretty typical unschooled kid. I dunno. Maybe i'm just so burnt out parenting my new daughter with all her little issues that i'm jaded...certainly if you would have asked me this question years ago, i would have said "oh just go get the doll!" but now, not so much.
post #99 of 134
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Originally Posted by queenjane View Post
Well we almost always go to buffets, so we can get the boys' food first and they are mostly ok. And we dont linger after the meals over. (Long gone are the days of my brother and me sitting for a half hour after a meal just chatting...nope, he's lucky if we let him finish. ) But, i never found toys to be helpful, the ones that might keep them occupied are rather loud electronic things, and other ones would probably just get thrown across the room. So, i tend to bribe them with things like a bowlful of candy from the ice cream bar or a slurpee from the drink bar which buys me some time.
A buffet would definitely be an improvement. I've also noticed more servers are offering to bring the children's food first. That helps, too.

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Its the eight yr old who is often talking too loudly, making a mess, eating with her hands, or not sitting in her seat. Go figure (she is WAAAAY more work than my "twins"!)
Kids are weird that way. My sister used to say dd1 was more work than her twins, too (they're only three weeks younger than dd1). That has changed since, though. DD1 has settled down, and the twins...haven't.

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I guess i dont see where there is proof that the child was required to sit and not talk.

My dd recently said she feels ignored when we go out to eat (usually my brother is with us, i sit across from my brother, she sits across from the boys)...she said "i want everyone to be able to have a conversation"...well i dont really know what she wants. My brother and i talk, probably about stuff she couldnt care less about. We may ask her questions every now and again "Oh is that steak good?" or "did you have fun at the park yesterday?" or whatever...but then go back to our conversation. Often, she will interrupt midsentence wanting to tell a joke that doesnt make sense, or talk about justin bieber or something, which is fine (well not to interrupt, we're working on that)...but for my child, due to some of her special needs, she really does feel ignored if the attention isnt *totally* on her...and there isnt much i can do about that other than help her learn that she cannot monopolize the attention of others. I'm not sure how else to "include" her in the conversation.

My son, on the other hand, was a very good conversationalist, seemed genuinely interested in whatever "adult" conversation we were having, could contribute to the talk in an on-topic relavent way (yes even at 8 yrs old)...he might be considered "gifted" though i'd say he was a pretty typical unschooled kid. I dunno. Maybe i'm just so burnt out parenting my new daughter with all her little issues that i'm jaded...certainly if you would have asked me this question years ago, i would have said "oh just go get the doll!" but now, not so much.
I guess the thing for me is that there's no proof either way. But, there's been a lot of jumping to the conclusion (not just by you) that she wasn't really being ignored, or that she'd been warned it would be boring, or whatever. All those things might be true. But, why base what we'd do in the situation in the OP on what we think might have happened running up to it? I'm making my assessment of how I'd respond, based solely on what we know from the conversation (the girl left her doll in the car to keep it safe, thought there would be colouring, which there wasn't, and whe wass bored by being ignored and having nothing to do). And, honestly, if my dd told me that I was talking to my firend and ignoring her, I'd respond with something more like, "I'm sorry you feel that way, but we're not ignoring you", not with, "well, that's what happens in adult restaurants".
post #100 of 134
Okay, what we know for sure is that the doll is in the car and she feels bored. We don't actually know that she IS being ignored: we know she thinks she's being ignored.

Again, I really feel that the expectations for a typically developing 8yo are different than for a toddler. I am not an especially strict parent, but I do expect my 8yo not to throw a fit if she forgot something and to be patient when other people are talking.

Of course it's possible that her mother and her friend were being rude and actually ignoring her. I just find it more likely that she FELT ignored because the conversation wasn't all.about.her. That's pretty typical of 8yos, IMO/IME.
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