Help me think through this? - Page 3

[brant31]

Originally Posted by AFWife

The guy I emailed said 30 seconds or so, that he's done hundreds and been doing it a LONG time (I forget number of years), and that a topical anesthetic is totally an option. He doesn't use clamps or anything like that. I have yet to call and get the full details of how it's done...I was going to have DH do it honestly.

Take a deep breath. Given your description of where your discussion stands now, I fear both you and your DH have "lost the plot". The mechanics and specifics of how a circumcision could be done aren't the point, and should never be used as negotiating currency between the two of you.

Circumcision is a loss for life. You may or may not know it, or feel it, but I'm sure you know not to bring it up to your DH like that at this point. Topical anesthetic does next to nothing to help with the pain of ripping the synechia, and after it wears off (rapidly) your child still has a painful wound -- a wound susceptible to irritation, infection, and adhesion. It sounds like you, or at least your husband, is focused on the happy outcome 21 years from now when DH and DS can clink beers and say, "Heck yeah, like father like son!"

The point is, it will always be "like father, like son", thanks to DNA (and a happy upbringing). It's all in how he's willing to look at it. Instead of dwelling on a difference inside of their FTL, your DH can always look at your son and think, "Like father, like son, plus your mom and I gave you a lucky break I didn't get. You're my lucky boy."

Are you getting ideas? As others have said, wait a good while. Then, instead of focusing on the differences you both have, try nudging the discussion toward "based on my instincts after having DS1 and a lot I've been lucky to learn since then, I think -- no, I know -- we will both be happier if DS2 stays intact like the trend is in the US. What I would really like to talk with you about -- one of many areas where your thoughts mean so much to me -- is how we can someday let the boys know we made the absolute best decision for each of them with what we knew at the time."

[And if it helps, you can point out that intact has been the norm in the US for most of our country's history. Routine circ is a pretty recent fad when viewed in context. Probably neither of you has to look very far in your family tree to see you're only talking 1 or 2 generations out of hundreds -- so in the big picture, circ is not a family tradition, and letting DS2 connect with his roots is not far-fetched.]

[philomom]

Originally Posted by brant31

[And if it helps, you can point out that intact has been the norm in the US for most of our country's history. Routine circ is a pretty recent fad when viewed in context. Probably neither of you has to look very far in your family tree to see you're only talking 1 or 2 generations out of hundreds -- so in the big picture, circ is not a family tradition, and letting DS2 connect with his roots is not far-fetched.]

Yes, to the above. Anyone born outside a hospital or before WW2 is likely left intact as nature intended.

[Ann-Marita]

Originally Posted by AFWife

part of our marital crap right now is that it wouldn't be the first time he'd sacrificed and I didn't.

But neither one of you are the person sacrificing ANYthing. It's your son's foreskin, it would be his sacrifice. Therefore it is his choice to make whether he wants to commit to that sacrifice. Or Not.

This simply isn't your DH's decision. It's not yours, either.

I really feel for you, AFWife. I've watched your threads for a long time.

I agree with the others - drop the subject for now. Bring it up later, try to gently bring him around. And if needed, stand your ground firmly.

[larzanna]

Originally Posted by jenP

Now, which would be better for a marriage: a man who hides from his feelings and cuts his son to try to feel better about himself and a wife who resents him for it every time she changes the baby's diaper (and a son who may well grow up to resent both of them for taking the decision from him?)
Or, a man who has the inner strength and quiet confidence that comes from working through a tough thing, and who feels a resurgence of that strength and deep connection of fatherliness every time he sees the baby that he helped make and helped to keep whole and healthy; with a wife who sees her husband as a smart, strong, sensitive, caring HERO and whose knees turn to jelly when she sees him with his son and realizes what an amazing father he is for putting his son's well-being ahead of his own feelings?

This is wonderfully written!

[laohaire]

Just reading your OP and not taking into account the marital issues - if my husband said to me what yours said to you, I'd consider the case won and shut up.

So he's not totally on board with not circing? That's perfectly fine. That's a far cry from "committed to circing."

I read his reaction to "bombarding" not so much like "I've made up my mind and I'm not interested in hearing your POV" but more like "I've heard so much (and am really hearing it!) that I feel really overwhelmed and need to work through this on my own in peace."

Well, anyway, that's just my bias from being married to my particular husband. Either way, I don't think there's much to gain by keeping at it, which will feel like nagging to him. Plus it will reinforce the feeling that he's "giving in" to you, rather than making his own decision. If he's heard you (and I think he has), then he needs to work through it himself so it's HIS decision too.

I would just consider this battle won, never bring it up again, and just say No to the circ if it's offered at the hospital.

And no way would I consider a mohel a decent compromise, no WAY. Sorry to disagree with folks on the board, but while a circ'd penis is a loss either way, bodily amputation WITHOUT ANESTHESIA is a major, major trauma on top of the obvious trauma. If I ever considered circing, the "compromise" would be to ENSURE full and adequate anesthesia, including researching the issue, finding a doctor who has a reputation for administering anesthesia correctly, and ensuring it happens. If your baby ever needed something amputated for medical reasons, would you even consider doing it without anesthesia, unless maybe it was an emergency procedure done in the bush with no other alternative? HELL no.

[AFWife]

Originally Posted by laohaire

Just reading your OP and not taking into account the marital issues - if my husband said to me what yours said to you, I'd consider the case won and shut up.

So he's not totally on board with not circing? That's perfectly fine. That's a far cry from "committed to circing."

I read his reaction to "bombarding" not so much like "I've made up my mind and I'm not interested in hearing your POV" but more like "I've heard so much (and am really hearing it!) that I feel really overwhelmed and need to work through this on my own in peace."

That's kind of how I'm feeling...he's hearing me and it's hard to process. He said it means saying that his mother wronged him and his brothers and that we did wrong by our son. "That's a big pill to swallow and I'm not sure I'm ready for that." His words.

I'm hoping, and I told him this, that because we'd be waiting at least a week to get it done if we went mohel he'll see how much easier an intact son is and change is mind...

[Mackenzie]

Originally Posted by AFWife

That's kind of how I'm feeling...he's hearing me and it's hard to process. He said it means saying that his mother wronged him and his brothers and that we did wrong by our son. "That's a big pill to swallow and I'm not sure I'm ready for that." His words.

I'm hoping, and I told him this, that because we'd be waiting at least a week to get it done if we went mohel he'll see how much easier an intact son is and change is mind...

It defintely is a big pill... Empathize with him and remind him that you had part in "wronging" your son also... Remind him that's no reason to commit future atrocities...When you know better, you do better... It's part of life and it's okay :-)

[AFWife]

Originally Posted by Mackenzie

It defintely is a big pill... Empathize with him and remind him that you had part in "wronging" your son also... Remind him that's no reason to commit future atrocities...When you know better, you do better... It's part of life and it's okay :-)

I actually take/took full responsibility for DS...DH couldn't make it to the birth (training) so the choice was ALL ME. I could have said no and I didn't.

[Mackenzie]

Ahh... Have you told him that? "I made a mistake with ds1 and I'm sorry. I don't want to make that mistake again"


As for his mom/ he and his bro's, we can do the best with the tools we are given... He's of the generation where that was the norm... Was his mother given the information you now have? If she wasn't (which is likely), would she have made the same decision?

[AFWife]

Originally Posted by Mackenzie

Ahh... Have you told him that? "I made a mistake with ds1 and I'm sorry. I don't want to make that mistake again"


As for his mom/ he and his bro's, we can do the best with the tools we are given... He's of the generation where that was the norm... Was his mother given the information you now have? If she wasn't (which is likely), would she have made the same decision?

Yes I told him that.

I told him that his mom did the best with what she knew of and that our generation was usually circ'd just because. (I kind of don't get it because her brothers are intact...) He got OFFENDED and said, "Don't assume that my mom just made a decision without thinking."

[Mackenzie]

Sigh... You've definitely got you hands full... ( I read your other post as well)... I agree with others, give him space, but, regardless of your guilt, you simply can't use your sons penis as a bargaining chip... It's not fair to him.

[MommytoB]

That's tough another thing AFWife- many parents were never asked if they wanted to have their son's circ'ed . Doctors just came in grabbed the baby for the exam then of to the circumcision area .

My brother was born in 81. Mom said she was never asked they just took the baby did it then brought him back circumcised .

My mom never even thought she could say no she thought since doctors did it that it had to be done.

[Greg B]

Whether to circumcise or not is the question. Having it done a week later is not a compromise, in my book. That's like saying a little bit pregnant.

the thing that seems to me to be missing in your discussion is why or why not to circumcise. What are the trade off? Why is one better than another for your son? Not what DH or you feel.

You and Dh need to lay out the the trade offs. Weigh the advantages vs the disadvantage for your son. This takes some research. Some discussion. there will be some you will not be able to clearly know, uncertainties because of conflicting statements and conclusions that different people make.

Here is a pretty good reference, written by doctors, that includes citations so you and he can delve deeper into the source material:

http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcisi...yStatement.pdf

You and he should end up with something along the lines of:

Circumcising will provide these benefits for our son: 1), 2), 3), etc, but at these costs: 1), 2), 3), etc.

Leaving him intact will provide these benefits for him: 1), 2), 3), etc, but at these costs: 1), 20, 3), etc.

For me the choice is clear. But you need to do your own fact finding. If, in the end, you cannot seem to find a clear choice that is better, then you should, as parents making decision in the best interest of your child, leave his options open and leave him intact. there is actually a very good argument to be made that circumcision is much more likely to be done effectively with fewer complications when he is an adult.

"His body, his choice"

"The foreskin isn't the wrapper...it's the candy!"

[hakunangovi]

Originally Posted by Ann-Marita

But neither one of you are the person sacrificing ANYthing. It's your son's foreskin, it would be his sacrifice. Therefore it is his choice to make whether he wants to commit to that sacrifice. Or Not.

This simply isn't your DH's decision. It's not yours, either.

This is the crux of the whole matter. It should be your son who gets to decide whether or not he wants to keep his foreskin. Precious few intact men decide to get circumcised later in life - they know how valuable their foreskin is and cannot comprehend living without it.

[eepster]

I agree that you should let this go for a while. Let him cool off, and process for a little while.

Originally Posted by AFWife

...and part of our marital crap right now is that it wouldn't be the first time he'd sacrificed and I didn't.

You aren't sacrificing by letting you DS be circ'd, your DH certainly isn't sacrificing anything by not insisting on circ'ing. Your new baby, however, is sacrificing part of his penis.

Originally Posted by AFWife

He said it means saying that his mother wronged him and his brothers and that we did wrong by our son. "That's a big pill to swallow and I'm not sure I'm ready for that." His words.

Originally Posted by AFWife

I told him that his mom did the best with what she knew of and that our generation was usually circ'd just because. (I kind of don't get it because her brothers are intact...) He got OFFENDED and said, "Don't assume that my mom just made a decision without thinking."

Did your MIL actually choose to have him and his brothers circ'd? Before the mid '70s, there was no consent form or anything, the hospital just did it automatically. My mom told me all about the difficulties she went through to make sure none of her babies would be circ'd when they checked into the hospital (of course we all turned out to be girls, but that was before ultrasounds so they couldn't know.)

[SpiderMum]

This isn't something you or your husband has the right to decide on. You don't own the penis. Your husband doesn't own the penis. You won't have to live with it...just see it for a couple of years while changing diapers. Your son has nothing to do with your marriage. If you're having a hard time, see a counselor. Genital surgery on a third party will not solve anything.

[gypsymama2008]

It must be stressful to be going through all this while pregnant and with a toddler, no less.

Maybe you could present it to him (after you've both had sometime to cool down) as "let's keep him intact and see what happens." If there are problems later on that can't be dealt with and/or your son feels that men should be circed he can get circed (as you can see from this board it's rare that there are problems that you won't be able to easily deal with). I'm thinking perhaps once he sees how easy and non-threatening it is, it might feel less scary. Also, hopefully once he sees and gets to know the baby it will be harder for him to think of the baby in pain.

Also, I don't think our parenting choices are a referendum on our parents' or anyone else choices. We do the best we can with the information we have. My grandmother didn't breastfeed my mother, but she didn't have any information or support for it. My choosing to breastfeed is not saying that she was wrong for not doing it, but simply that with the information I have now, I'm making a different choice. Choosing not to circumcise your son is not saying that your mother-in-law did something wrong, but that looking at the information you have now, you don't think it's the best choice for your baby.

It sounds like your husband is a good dad, if you give him time, I'm sure he'll come around and want to help make the decision that's best for your baby.

[2boyzmama]

Mama, I haven't read your thread in PaP yet, but judging from what you're saying here, I think that our marriages have some things in common.

Hubby and I recently had several serious relationship talks. He did something really stupid, something that was almost a deal-breaker for me. I knew that something drove him to that choice, something far deeper than the superficial stuff of 3 kids in 4 years, special needs kids, stresses related to me working and him in school, etc etc etc. I really had to draw it out of him, but I finally got him talking to me.

He feels like he can never disagree with me about anything because he says that I always am right. I let him keep talking, I just sat there silently for a while, letting him find the words. Basically our personality types just don't jive. I don't even bring a subject up unless I have already researched it thoroughly, so in essence I blindside him with it. And I've already made a decision, so I'm not giving him the opportunity to research and counter it at all.

He's right. I'm very extroverted and a trained negotiator (it's actually my job!) but although it seems like negotiating is finding middle ground and compromise, anyone who is actually trained (and I got my training from the National Security Agency) will tell you that's not true at all. I might make it seem like I'm giving in to certain aspects of a negotiation, but it's part of my pre-determined negotiation plan.

And then, because of our different styles, if he tries to research something on his own, he just isn't as thorough and detailed as I am, half the time he doesn't even know where to begin, so he just...doesn't. Then the resentment builds, he stews about it--for much longer than I realized!--because yet again, I've "won" the battle without the battle even happening in the first place. We have never disagreed on a parenting topic, because I've basically not let him have a say.

There's a lot of validity to his feelings. And although the answer seems so obvious to me--he just needs to step up and research like I do, or step down and accept it--it's not that obvious to him. It's not natural for him to question things like I do. He doesn't know how to research like I do. He doesn't know how to present a logical argument, having considered all the pros and cons of both sides. So he just lets me run him over.

Now, in the case of circumcision, it is a hill I'm willing to die on. But I think it's important to find *something* in your marriage that IS negotiable, something that he CAN make the decision on. Do you cloth diaper and he thinks it's gross? Change to disposables. Yes, I know, you probably do all the changes and the laundry anyway, so why should he care, but in my opinion, that's something worth giving in to.

Do you have some other decision blooming on the horizon? Ask him to research it for the two of you. Say "DS1 is getting closer to preschool age, we have to make a decision on that soon, can you start looking into what our options are?"

Do you find yourself making most of the decisions about other things in your family? The food you eat, the way you parent (cosleeping, breastfeeding, gentle discipline, diapering, baby wearing), where you live, how your house is decorated, etc etc? Soul search and determine which of those you're willing to hand over to him. Make him a more integrated member of the marriage, with equal say in some things, let him hold the trump card in some things, and you then hold the trump card in other things.

My hubby had to lay out what things are going to be his domain (house maintenance, for example. He's always done it, but I've always questioned his way of doing it, whether he could have saved money by doing something different, whether something truly needed to be done in the first place, etc) and each time I questioned him, even though I thought I was just ensuring he had logically consdered all options, he felt like I was judging and yet again being overbearing. I can see how I come across that way. I have vowed to work on that, and to not speak up at all when it comes to his domain. But in turn, I asked him to make more of an effort to consider those things, even if he doesn't share the thought processes with me.

Anyway...I think that focussing on the other areas of your marriage will help a lot. The PPs are right when they say that you shouldn't even be discussing a compromise of any sort on this issue. You should be discussing the real root of your problems, and agreeing on the areas that you are EACH willing to hand over to the other spouse.

[transylvania_mom]

Originally Posted by SpiderMum

Your son has nothing to do with your marriage. If you're having a hard time, see a counselor. Genital surgery on a third party will not solve anything.

[A&A]

Be the mama bear:

http://www.noharmm.org/feminist.htm

"Today, it is often the more passive, compliant mother who will allow her son to be circumcised, acquiescing to the demands of medical professionals, husband, family or other outside sources - probably against her better judgment. The more self-determined, confident mother is more likely to insist that her son remain intact, since she has the strength to withstand the outside pressures of a circumcision oriented society."